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Should Scotland be an independent country?
Yes 12 (48%)
No 13 (52%)
Total Votes: 25
#ScotDecides
Topic Started: 17th September 2014 - 09:00 PM (1,030 Views)
CGJ
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Franz Kaufmann (1886-1944)
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The Scottish Independence Referendum
The Order Decides


For the next 24 hours, from now until polls close in Scotland, we will be giving you the chance to vote on whether Scotland should remain in the UK – or go its own way. Feel free to post your thoughts here. The question 'Should Scotland be an independent country?' will be on the ballot paper.

The Camps
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Polls will close at 10pm BST (GMT/UTC+1), and the results announced the morning after. Check out BBC Scotland for more information.

Enjoy!
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Beatrice
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Interesting to see the vote at 4-4. :P
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Wow, even we don't agree. xD
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Aeviternus
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As an American I don't feel as if my opinion is really relevant. I don't know the truth, just what I read.

I just know that, studying history, the way the England even bought Scotland is pretty suspect and as an academic it would be really interesting to study the creation of a new state and government - especially since all our other modern examples such as South Sudan are in abject poverty or recovering from significant problems. So, I voted yes, but I don't know that it's necessarily the best thing for Scotland.
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James_Ed
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I'm going to have to agree with Aeviternus, as a foreigner (Australian) I doubt my opinion has any real weight. Although I voted yes for similar reasons to him, with the additional reason of wanting to see the Australian flag finally replaced.
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DaveIronside
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For me if I was a Scot I'd be voting No. A Yes vote is a vote for uncertainty. Alex Salmond's response to many questions is vague, such as "We can negotiate this or that" , well negotiation takes two people agreeing, look at the currency issue. He says they will still use the Pound. Well every major party has said they would not support a currency union, so clearly that negotiation isn't going to work, he then says "Its our pound we can use it if we wish" , so basically continue using the pound without a currency union, giving the rest of the UK influence over the Scotish economy, doesn't sound like independence to me.

If you also look at the large number of big businesses that come out and support the Union by saying they'd relocate their HQ's to London it would leave the Scots without any large multi-nationals.

Finally they talk about being part of the EU etc, several people have already said to them that they wouldn't automatically get in, however Salmond just yells their wrong without being able to explain why.

I fear that those voting Yes may think they know what their going to get, however once the negotiations kick in things could be very different to what they expected. Here are a few examples that have kind of been brushed under the carpet.

1. As Scots students get all their fees paid by the government should Scotland remain in the EU all EU students must receieve the same treatment at Scotish institutions as the Scots. I see a large influx of English students heading North of the border for a degree.

2. Salmond has said the Scots are oil rich and will be selling oil for around $200 a barrel, the historic high is only $140.

3. What happens to those with British registered driving licences, its a UK driving licence held on our system. For all the admin work transfering it should the UK charge?

4. What happens to the British Navy based in Scotland, surely its heading South to home waters. This will effectively shut the Scots dockyard industry.
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Achkaerin
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Simple I'd vote No why? Salmond has no plan B for anything- Scotland if it goes independent loses NATO membership, EU membership (including the ECHR) even UN membership by not being part of the UK since it is the signature of the UK's head of state not Scotlands on every critical international document.

Furthermore Salmond has been trying to cherry pick the best bits of the UK for an independent Scotland but if Scotland votes no they get all that anyway and they still get the annual financial subsidy from Westminster (which I'm convinced Salmond hasn't factored in to any economic calculation he's done over the last two years.)

And finally there's the currency- Salmond isn't in a million years going to get the currency union since all three major parties and every business has ruled it out, it then becomes practically impossible for him to use Sterling (as Dave has pointed out) so he has one choice which is a new untried currency and I don't need to explain what the stock markets reaction to that is likely to be.

A yes vote effectively dooms Scotland's economy once the wave of "You're not having this Alex." comes from Downing Street.
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CGJ
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Okay, so the region seems pretty divided. I'm gonna give my own personal view as someone who lives in the South East of England.

Benefits of a 'Yes' Vote
Free university fees maybe? (As Salmond's Scotland would be joining the EU, and you can't discriminate against fellow EU citizens...)
Slightly cheaper phone networks as we're no longer subsidising the less-densely populated Scotland?

Downsides of a 'Yes' Vote
- Less certain economic stability – issues such as currency and debt could have some rather negative impacts on the rUK economy
- Potential loss of Trident and a much weaker UK Armed Forces
- A permanent Conservative majority...because living in a One-Party State is something everybody deserves (or worse, a permanent Conservative/UKIP coalition)
- Less chance of political reform. Similar to the point above, but with uber-strong Conservative/UKIP following in England, all we'll end up with is a stronger Westminster and an exit from the European Union
- The annoyances of potentially altering the Union Jack, Coat of Arms and country name – thus resulting in...
- An erosion of my own national identity
- Increased expense in buying Scottish goods...and if Scotland wants admittance to the EU they'll have to join the Schengen Area...and thus have a British-Scottish border
- Roaming charges/mobile phone network separation costs
- Salmond's smug face for the rest of his life

All in all, as a 'southerner' my mind has been made. But of course, for Scottish people, there is so much more uncertainty. It's just...an unrealistic dream that I fear could go terribly wrong if they vote yes.
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The Kingdom of Dartfordia (Factbook - Vignettes - News - Press Office)
Founding member of the Cross-Straits Treaty Alliance (CSTO), Commonwealth Treaty Organisation (CTO) and Congress of Albion (PAC).
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DaveIronside
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Scotland remains part of the Union now right? We've spoken.
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And the IndyResults:

8 votes yes
10 votes no...

10 hours to go until we have the real result...
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The Kingdom of Dartfordia (Factbook - Vignettes - News - Press Office)
Founding member of the Cross-Straits Treaty Alliance (CSTO), Commonwealth Treaty Organisation (CTO) and Congress of Albion (PAC).
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Gadshack
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I have a friend who grew up in Scotland and I asked him about this and to my surprise he reluctantly said no. I asked why and he said there isn't really no point to independence, when he was growing up he heard about freedom but always wondered what they were trying to win their freedom from.

Yeah I guess it's cool to have your own country and have a unicorn as your mascot but is it really necessary when stacked up against all the cons? Just as an American I'm asking. To what Aeviternus said, I completely agree and I can see the reason for a lot of Scots not liking the English to much. The history between the two is not....great. Around this time I get this "THEY MAY TAKE OUR LIVES! BUT THEY CAN NEVER TAKE OUR FREEDOM!" vibe from Scotland. :P
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Many musicians that I enjoy seem to think independence is a good idea. Many distillers whose works I also enjoy seem to think it is not. Only a handful of hours 'til we find out!
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Sekkanar
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Hmm, In the indy poll, Yes has overtaken No, 12-10.
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Avakael
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Exit polls indicate 54% said no, with the last minute lean towards the status quo that normally happens in elections and referenda.
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Sekkanar
18th September 2014 - 11:21 PM
Hmm, In the indy poll, Yes has overtaken No, 12-10.
It was 10-8 in No's favor when the polls closed.
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Tytor
19th September 2014 - 01:02 AM
Sekkanar
18th September 2014 - 11:21 PM
Hmm, In the indy poll, Yes has overtaken No, 12-10.
It was 10-8 in No's favor when the polls closed.
Ah. Thanks for the clarification.
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Live results here: http://www.theguardian.com/politics/ng-interactive/2014/sep/18/-sp-scottish-independence-referendum-results-in-full
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DaveIronside
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it's all over "Alex Salmond, Loch Ness Monster, Rod Stewart, William Wallace....your boys took one he'll of a beating."......well about 300,000 votes in it but you get the idea. Guess the uncertainty of Salmond having a rubbish Plan A and no Plan B put people off. All hail Gordon Brown
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Mr. B
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Gordon!

I'm glad Scotland voted no, they're too...connected with the rest of us...


Edited by Mr. B, 19th September 2014 - 11:17 AM.
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CGJ
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And...Salmond has resigned!

also, I just won £60 for guessing the turnout...
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The Kingdom of Dartfordia (Factbook - Vignettes - News - Press Office)
Founding member of the Cross-Straits Treaty Alliance (CSTO), Commonwealth Treaty Organisation (CTO) and Congress of Albion (PAC).
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Achkaerin
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CGJ I seem to recall a conversation on IRC last night where I called it including Salmond's career.

Still that's one third of the equation dealt with.
Edited by Achkaerin, 19th September 2014 - 04:13 PM.
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Aeviternus
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Like I said, I had no basis by which I could have an opinion, not being a resident of Scotland or the UK. I can't help but feel a little disappointed as an outside observer, though, just because after so much build up it ended in the status quo. And I say the status quo, as it looks like after promising more devolution that Westminster is already backtracking on that and focusing on other things that are rather Anglocentric.

Either way, a huge display of democracy, and historic either way. I'm not much of a drinker at all, but I had some Scotch last night to celebrate the historic occasion.
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CGJ
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Aeviternus
19th September 2014 - 05:44 PM
Like I said, I had no basis by which I could have an opinion, not being a resident of Scotland or the UK. I can't help but feel a little disappointed as an outside observer, though, just because after so much build up it ended in the status quo. And I say the status quo, as it looks like after promising more devolution that Westminster is already backtracking on that and focusing on other things that are rather Anglocentric.

Either way, a huge display of democracy, and historic either way. I'm not much of a drinker at all, but I had some Scotch last night to celebrate the historic occasion.
You never know, Aev. There's talk now...a lot of talk. Constitutional conventions, English devolution, changes to the settlements with Northern Ireland and Wales. Today's decision could be (and I hope will be) a catalyst for major political change in the UK.
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The Kingdom of Dartfordia (Factbook - Vignettes - News - Press Office)
Founding member of the Cross-Straits Treaty Alliance (CSTO), Commonwealth Treaty Organisation (CTO) and Congress of Albion (PAC).
Member of the Cultural Exchange Treaty Organisation (CETO).
Signatory to the Mundus Convention on Universal Rights (MCUR), Fair Seas Concordat (FSC) and Uppsala Convention.
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