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Debate: Eighth Constitutional Amendment
Topic Started: 10th November 2014 - 06:50 PM (1,267 Views)
Gadshack
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The following amendment is now in debate for 3 days.

Quote:
 
Eight Constitutional Amendment Act- Eighth Amendment (2014)

An Act to amend the constitution of the Independent Order.


Be it enacted by Her Excellency the Grand Chancellor, by and with the advice and consent of the Senate, and by the authority of the same, as follows:

Short Title

(1) This Act may be referred to as the Eight Constitutional Amendment Act (2014).

Article 1

(2) The following shall be interposed as the new section fifteen (15)- "Upon appointment whether by the Senate or the Grand Chancellor the Speaker shall appoint a Deputy Speaker from among the remaining elected Senators, the Deputy Speaker will act as Speaker in the event of the Speaker being indisposed for whatever reason.

(3) The following shall be interposed as the new section sixteen (16)- "The Premier and Vice Premier are disqualified from serving as either Speaker or Deputy Speaker.

(4) Subsequent sections of the Constitution will be renumbered accordingly.
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Tytor
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Rewriting this to bring it in line with previous constitutional amendments:
Quote:
 
Constitutional Amendment Act - Eighth Amendment (2014)

An Act to amend the Constitution of the Independent Order.


Be it enacted by Her Excellency the Grand Chancellor, by and with the advice and consent of the Senate, and by the authority of the same, as follows:

Short Title

(1) This Act may be referred to as the Constitutional Amendment Act - Eighth Amendment (2014).

Amendments

(2) The following sections shall be added after section (14):

"(15) Upon appointment, whether by the Senate or the Grand Chancellor, the Speaker shall appoint a Deputy Speaker from among the remaining elected Senators. The Deputy Speaker will act as Speaker in the event of the Speaker being indisposed for whatever reason.

(16) The Premier and Vice Premier are disqualified from serving as either Speaker or Deputy Speaker."

(3) Subsequent sections of the Constitution will be renumbered accordingly.
Edited by Tytor, 10th November 2014 - 09:54 PM.
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Tytor
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Additionally, I would suggest the following changes (in gold):
Quote:
 
Constitutional Amendment Act - Eighth Amendment (2014)

An Act to amend the Constitution of the Independent Order.


Be it enacted by Her Excellency the Grand Chancellor, by and with the advice and consent of the Senate, and by the authority of the same, as follows:

Short Title

(1) This Act may be referred to as the Constitutional Amendment Act - Eighth Amendment (2014).

Amendments

(2) The following section shall be added after section (14):

"(15) Upon appointment, whether by the Senate or the Grand Chancellor, the Speaker shall appoint a Deputy Speaker from among the remaining elected Senators. The Deputy Speaker will act as Speaker in the event of the Speaker being indisposed for whatever reason."

(3) The following section shall be added after section (33):

"(35)
The Premier and Vice Premier are disqualified from serving as either Speaker or Deputy Speaker of the Senate. Additionally, the Speaker and Deputy Speaker are disqualified from holding portfolios."

(4) Subsequent sections of the Constitution will be renumbered accordingly.
Edited by Tytor, 10th November 2014 - 09:54 PM.
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Achkaerin
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I don't object to the idea of the speaker being kept free of a ministerial portfolio I think that's an excellent suggestion. However that said I don't think we should extend that to the Deputy Speaker.

This is because the Deputy Speaker is exactly the same as any other Senator except that it is their responsibility to fill in for the speaker should they be required to do so. Only in situations where the Speaker vacates (as per the Elpidia situation) should we require the Deputy Speaker to give up a ministerial portfolio if they have one since they would then become the speaker on a more than temporary basis.

Also with regards to the suggested additions I would like to suggest that we view this amendment (should it pass through the Senate) as coming into force as the results of the next elections are declared, simply because the situation with Storm vacating his Portfolio has resulted in Gadshack our current speaker being handed the vacant Foreign and Imperial Affairs portfolio and I'm loathed to slow down our legislative machine by requiring a speaker election in a week if this were to be effective immediately upon being passed.
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Sekkanar
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That seems reasonable.
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Tytor
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All right, how's this? Changes in gold:
Quote:
 
Constitutional Amendment Act - Eighth Amendment (2014)

An Act to amend the Constitution of the Independent Order.


Be it enacted by Her Excellency the Grand Chancellor, by and with the advice and consent of the Senate, and by the authority of the same, as follows:

Short Title

(1) This Act may be referred to as the Constitutional Amendment Act - Eighth Amendment (2014).

Amendments

(2) The following section shall be added after section (14):

"(15) Upon appointment, whether by the Senate or the Grand Chancellor, the Speaker shall appoint a Deputy Speaker from among the remaining elected Senators. The Deputy Speaker will act as Speaker in the event of the Speaker being indisposed for whatever reason."

(3) The following section shall be added after section (33):

"(35) The Premier and Vice Premier are disqualified from serving as either Speaker or Deputy Speaker of the Senate. Additionally, the Speaker and Acting Speaker are disqualified from holding portfolios."

(4) Subsequent sections of the Constitution will be renumbered accordingly.

(5) This amendment shall come into effect immediately after the forty-fifth (45th) day of the current Senate’s term.
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Major_Thom
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I think this is definitely something we need to legislate for. I agree with Ach that the deputy speaker should be able to hold a portfolio, due to the minor nature of that role unless the speaker is absent. I think the changes Tytor made definitely improve the bill.
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James_Ed
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I think this is a quite simple and need amendment, there isn't really much to say against it. What could be improved has been done so by Tytor (thankyou :p) and I think it now sufficiently achieves its goal.
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I think that after the drafts this is good to go. It will certainly ensure the smooth running of the government.
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Achkaerin
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I agree with the new version as put forward by Tytor.
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Achkaerin
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Given that our Vice Chancellor holds the Constitutional Review Portfolio within his office I thought it best advised to transfer his suggestions here. Everything between the two dividers is a copy and paste of C's post, I've then addressed the concerns after the second divider.



Quote:
 
"(35) The Premier and Vice Premier are disqualified from serving as either Speaker or Deputy Speaker of the Senate. Additionally, the Speaker and Acting Speaker are disqualified from holding portfolios."


First of all, I'm not entirely sure why regulations for the Speaker and Acting Speaker would be in the 'Premier' section, but that's just a matter of formatting. I'd suggest moving the latter part of this clause to the 'Legislature' part of the document.

Secondly, I'd like to express concern at the Acting Speaker being prohibited from being a minister. The AS is, or at least should be, an interim position for the Deputy Speaker (or in my case, the most experienced Senator) – I see no real justification for anyone who is expecting to fulfil this position for a matter of days being forced to resign their ministerial post...

Third, it should also probably read: "from holding any other portfolio."

Also, as a point of law:

Quote:
 
(5) This amendment shall come into effect immediately after the forty-fifth (45th) day of the current Senate’s term.


As to take into the account of a prospect of the Senate dissolving itself or being forcibly dissolved in a state of emergency (as is enabled in the Constitution). This would better read as:

"(5) The amendments in this act shall come into effect immediately upon the start of the next Senate term."



In response to where relevant sections should be placed in the constitution I will bow to the wisdom of the more experienced members on here.

I think the main issue is to do with the Deputy Speaker holding ministerial portfolio, as I've previously stated there should be no obstacle to the Deputy Speaker holding a ministerial portfolio given the very much junior aspect of the role. I also think that if the Deputy Speaker is only filling in for a few days and they have a ministerial portfolio that they should not have to give up that portfolio for the duration of the Speaker's absence i.e. Speaker's LOA this could be construed as the Deputy Speaker in the position of Acting Speaker. Therefore that section should probably read-

Quote:
 
"The Premier and Vice Premier are disqualified from serving as either Speaker or Deputy Speaker of the Senate. Additionally, the Speaker is disqualified from holding portfolios."


The only situation where the Deputy Speaker if they have a ministerial portfolio should be required to give up that portfolio is when the Speaker vacates his position and Senate seat as happened with Elpidia, since the Deputy Speaker then becomes the Speaker.

In terms of the execution of this amendment i.e. from when it applies I do agree with C on this point in terms of the wording since it makes sense to account for all possibilities no matter how improbable.
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CGJ
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Mr Speaker,

I'd like to thank Ach for posting my suggestions in this debate. And, if I may, I'd like to ask Senators that I be enabled to further contribute to this debate from within this topic.

CGJ
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Edited by CGJ, 11th November 2014 - 11:42 AM.
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Tytor
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New suggestions incorporated. Changes in gold:
Quote:
 
Constitutional Amendment Act - Eighth Amendment (2014)

An Act to amend the Constitution of the Independent Order.


Be it enacted by Her Excellency the Grand Chancellor, by and with the advice and consent of the Senate, and by the authority of the same, as follows:

Short Title

(1) This Act may be referred to as the Constitutional Amendment Act - Eighth Amendment (2014).

Amendments

(2) The following section shall be added after section (14):

"(15) Upon appointment, whether by the Senate or the Grand Chancellor, the Speaker shall appoint a Deputy Speaker from among the remaining elected Senators. The Deputy Speaker will act as Speaker in the event of the Speaker being indisposed for whatever reason."

(3) The following section shall be added after section (33):

"(35) The Premier and Vice Premier are disqualified from serving as either Speaker or Deputy Speaker of the Senate. Additionally, the Speaker is disqualified from holding any ministerial portfolios."

(4) Subsequent sections of the Constitution will be renumbered accordingly.

(5) This amendment shall come into effect immediately upon the start of the next Senate’s term.
Regarding the bit currently labeled as (35), I moved it from the Legislature article because the Premier and Vice Premier hadn't been defined yet in the document. If there's a consensus that this should be changed back then I'll change it back.
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Gadshack
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Watching over this, I have no objection to the current draft Tytor has wrote up for us. I would only like for this amendment to go into effect at the start of next elections. as Ach said before just simply due to current situation of me holding a position in the Ministry at the moment.
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Tytor
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The current draft does that. "(5) This amendment shall come into effect immediately upon the start of the next Senate’s term."
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CGJ
 


Oh honorable and wise Gadshack,

Can you approve my request to talk in the Senate please?

Thank you


Request granted :P
Edited by Gadshack, 11th November 2014 - 05:40 PM.
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^ Well, I'm not sure that's exactly what I said ;)

Quote:
 
"(15) Upon appointment, whether by the Senate or the Grand Chancellor, the Speaker shall appoint a Deputy Speaker from among the remaining elected Senators. The Deputy Speaker will act as Speaker in the event of the Speaker being indisposed for whatever reason."


I would perhaps (to avoid it being repeated with the present Section (15)), reword this as follows:

"(15) The Speaker shall, upon taking office, appoint an elected Senator to serve as Deputy Speaker. Should the Speaker declare a leave of absence, the Deputy Speaker shall be responsible for carrying out the functions, duties and responsibilities of the Speaker."

Following that, the present Section (15) should be amended as follows:

"Should the Speaker go inactive, defined as not having logged into the forum for five (5) days, they shall be deemed to have vacated the office, and the Deputy Speaker shall be appointed by the Grand Chancellor to replace them. If the Deputy Speaker is on leave, inactive as defined in this Section, or otherwise does not wish to be appointed into the position, then the Senate shall elect a new Speaker."
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Tytor
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I think I agree with that. I'll see if I can get that worked in. Changes in gold:
Quote:
 
Constitutional Amendment Act - Eighth Amendment (2014)

An Act to amend the Constitution of the Independent Order.


Be it enacted by Her Excellency the Grand Chancellor, by and with the advice and consent of the Senate, and by the authority of the same, as follows:

Short Title

(1) This Act may be referred to as the Constitutional Amendment Act - Eighth Amendment (2014).

Amendments

(2) The following section shall be added after section (14):

"(15) The Speaker shall, upon taking office, appoint an elected Senator to serve as Deputy Speaker. Should the Speaker declare a leave of absence, the Deputy Speaker shall be responsible for carrying out the functions, duties and responsibilities of the Speaker."

(3) Section (15) shall be amended thusly:

"(16) Should the Speaker go inactive, defined as not having logged into the forum for five (5) days, they shall be deemed to have vacated the office, and the Deputy Speaker shall be appointed by the Grand Chancellor to replace them. If the Deputy Speaker is on leave, inactive as defined in this Section, or otherwise does not wish to be appointed to this position, then the Senate shall elect a new Speaker."


(4) The following section shall be added after section (33):

"(35) The Premier and Vice Premier are disqualified from serving as either Speaker or Deputy Speaker of the Senate. Additionally, the Speaker is disqualified from holding any ministerial portfolios."

(5) Subsequent sections of the Constitution shall be renumbered accordingly.

(6) This amendment shall come into effect immediately upon the start of the next Senate’s term.
Also, the typo in the topic's title is bugging me. Could someone please change it to "Debate: Eighth Constitutional Amendment"?
Edited by Tytor, 12th November 2014 - 02:49 PM.
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Achkaerin
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It would seem that we have a general agreement as to the content, I'm also happy with the wording as proposed by Tytor in the above post. Therefore I move that this Bill be put to a vote.
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Sorrysorrysorry, just realised I hadn't posted a suggestion Id thought about a while ago:

To prevent the Premier and Vice-Premier from becoming Speaker, and the Speaker from being a Minister, I suggest editing the Legislature part of the Constitution to:
"(14) The Senate shall vote for a Speaker from their own ranks upon the commencement of the legislative term. The Speaker must not be a minister, and the Premier nor Vice Premier are disqualified from serving this position."

And then a new section just below:

"Should the Senate be unable to determine a Speaker, after a period of seven (7) days, the Grand Chancellor shall appoint a member of the Senate to serve as Speaker for the remainder of the legislative term."
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Tytor
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I would point out (as I did once before) that both the Premier and the Vice Premier are defined in Article III (sections 24 and 28 respectively). Thus, I believe that either the restrictions placed on the Premier and VP should be placed in Article III or Articles II and III should be swapped.
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Why a GC appointment should the speaker go inactive? Could we not just have another election?
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I think what CGJ means is that if the Senate couldnt agree on a speaker or kept returning tied votes for example on the issue then the GC could step in to ensure the senate doesn't become incapable of operating. At least thats what I think he meant.
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14th November 2014 - 05:39 PM
Why a GC appointment should the speaker go inactive? Could we not just have another election?
Automatic appointment of the Deputy Speaker :)

And T: hmm...would swapping it cause too many issues?
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Tytor
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Well... Article III mentions the Senate (sections 34 and 35), so that would need to be worked out. I personally would prefer to just leave it as is.
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Gadshack
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I wish to motion this amendment for voting. Can I get an aye?
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Tytor
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Before the amendment is voted on, I would make just one change (in gold):
Quote:
 
Constitutional Amendment Act - Eighth Amendment (2014)

An Act to amend the Constitution of the Independent Order.


Be it enacted by Her Excellency the Grand Chancellor, by and with the advice and consent of the Senate, and by the authority of the same, as follows:

Short Title

(1) This Act may be referred to as the Constitutional Amendment Act - Eighth Amendment (2014).

Amendments

(2) The following section shall be added after section (14):

"(15) The Speaker shall, upon taking office, appoint an elected Senator to serve as Deputy Speaker. Should the Speaker declare a leave of absence, the Deputy Speaker shall be responsible for carrying out the functions, duties and responsibilities of the Speaker."

(3) Section (15) shall be amended thusly:

"(16) Should the Speaker go inactive, defined as not having logged into the forum for five (5) days, they shall be deemed to have vacated the office, and the Deputy Speaker shall be appointed by the Grand Chancellor to replace them. If the Deputy Speaker is on leave, inactive as defined in this Section, or otherwise does not wish to be appointed to this position, then the Senate shall elect a new Speaker."

(4) The following section shall be added after section (33):

"(35) The Premier and Vice Premier are disqualified from serving as either Speaker or Deputy Speaker of the Senate. Additionally, the Speaker is disqualified from holding any ministerial portfolios."

(5) Remaining sections of the Constitution shall be renumbered accordingly.

(6) This amendment shall come into effect immediately upon the start of the next Senate’s term.
The change is to make sure it's clear that even the sections between those added are supposed to be renumbered. "Subsequent" implies that only those after the new (35) will undergo such treatment. If there are no objections (or other last-minute additions/changes), then I move that the text above be taken to a vote.
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His Excellency Juvenal Massaquoi, President of Ubakasa, Protector of the Revolution, and Father of His People

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Achkaerin
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Well I wanted to move this for a vote a few posts ago, so we can take that along with Gadshack and Tytor's motions meaning that's three of us supporting the call for a vote on this.
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MikeRaven
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Looks fine to me.
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Sekkanar
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I'm fine with a vote.
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Major_Thom
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I second the motion for a vote.
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Achkaerin
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Mr Speaker the majority of Senators have backed the call for a vote I therefore request you move this Bill to a vote.
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