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| Debate: Eighth Constitutional Amendment | ||||
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| Topic Started: 10th November 2014 - 06:50 PM (1,267 Views) | ||||
| Gadshack | 10th November 2014 - 06:50 PM Post #1 | |||
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The following amendment is now in debate for 3 days.
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Factbook of Tokulel Ahkabnil Wiki | ||||
| Tytor | 10th November 2014 - 07:18 PM Post #2 | |||
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Rewriting this to bring it in line with previous constitutional amendments:
Edited by Tytor, 10th November 2014 - 09:54 PM.
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His Majesty Michael the First, by the Grace of God, King of Tytor and her Colonies, and Lord Protector of Floodwater His Excellency Juvenal Massaquoi, President of Ubakasa, Protector of the Revolution, and Father of His People Factbook -- News -- Press Office Former Governor-General of The Infinite Alliance Former Ambassador to Albion and the Global Right Alliance Former Vice Premier and Speaker of the Senate of the Independent Order Professional Procrastinator In firm opposition to Donald Trump's inevitable reelection campaign in 2020 Non-partisan and proud of it "A witty saying proves nothing." - Voltaire | ||||
| Tytor | 10th November 2014 - 09:54 PM Post #3 | |||
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Additionally, I would suggest the following changes (in gold):
Edited by Tytor, 10th November 2014 - 09:54 PM.
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His Majesty Michael the First, by the Grace of God, King of Tytor and her Colonies, and Lord Protector of Floodwater His Excellency Juvenal Massaquoi, President of Ubakasa, Protector of the Revolution, and Father of His People Factbook -- News -- Press Office Former Governor-General of The Infinite Alliance Former Ambassador to Albion and the Global Right Alliance Former Vice Premier and Speaker of the Senate of the Independent Order Professional Procrastinator In firm opposition to Donald Trump's inevitable reelection campaign in 2020 Non-partisan and proud of it "A witty saying proves nothing." - Voltaire | ||||
| Achkaerin | 10th November 2014 - 11:12 PM Post #4 | |||
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I don't object to the idea of the speaker being kept free of a ministerial portfolio I think that's an excellent suggestion. However that said I don't think we should extend that to the Deputy Speaker. This is because the Deputy Speaker is exactly the same as any other Senator except that it is their responsibility to fill in for the speaker should they be required to do so. Only in situations where the Speaker vacates (as per the Elpidia situation) should we require the Deputy Speaker to give up a ministerial portfolio if they have one since they would then become the speaker on a more than temporary basis. Also with regards to the suggested additions I would like to suggest that we view this amendment (should it pass through the Senate) as coming into force as the results of the next elections are declared, simply because the situation with Storm vacating his Portfolio has resulted in Gadshack our current speaker being handed the vacant Foreign and Imperial Affairs portfolio and I'm loathed to slow down our legislative machine by requiring a speaker election in a week if this were to be effective immediately upon being passed. |
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| Sekkanar | 10th November 2014 - 11:15 PM Post #5 | |||
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That seems reasonable. | |||
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| Tytor | 11th November 2014 - 01:34 AM Post #6 | |||
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All right, how's this? Changes in gold:
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His Majesty Michael the First, by the Grace of God, King of Tytor and her Colonies, and Lord Protector of Floodwater His Excellency Juvenal Massaquoi, President of Ubakasa, Protector of the Revolution, and Father of His People Factbook -- News -- Press Office Former Governor-General of The Infinite Alliance Former Ambassador to Albion and the Global Right Alliance Former Vice Premier and Speaker of the Senate of the Independent Order Professional Procrastinator In firm opposition to Donald Trump's inevitable reelection campaign in 2020 Non-partisan and proud of it "A witty saying proves nothing." - Voltaire | ||||
| Major_Thom | 11th November 2014 - 01:41 AM Post #7 | |||
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I think this is definitely something we need to legislate for. I agree with Ach that the deputy speaker should be able to hold a portfolio, due to the minor nature of that role unless the speaker is absent. I think the changes Tytor made definitely improve the bill. | |||
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The Empire of Jukawa History - Geography - Culture - Miltary - Government ![]() Lead by the forever noble and valiant: His Imperial Majesty Khwezi Akufo; Liberator of the Jukawis; heir to the golden stool; exalted son of Asase Ya; and eternal emperor of the Glorious Empire of Jukawa. | ||||
| James_Ed | 11th November 2014 - 09:28 AM Post #8 | |||
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I think this is a quite simple and need amendment, there isn't really much to say against it. What could be improved has been done so by Tytor (thankyou :p) and I think it now sufficiently achieves its goal. | |||
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| DaveIronside | 11th November 2014 - 09:43 AM Post #9 | |||
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Bendix Landau (1880-1939)
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I think that after the drafts this is good to go. It will certainly ensure the smooth running of the government. | |||
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| Achkaerin | 11th November 2014 - 09:59 AM Post #10 | |||
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I agree with the new version as put forward by Tytor. | |||
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| Achkaerin | 11th November 2014 - 11:23 AM Post #11 | |||
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Given that our Vice Chancellor holds the Constitutional Review Portfolio within his office I thought it best advised to transfer his suggestions here. Everything between the two dividers is a copy and paste of C's post, I've then addressed the concerns after the second divider.
First of all, I'm not entirely sure why regulations for the Speaker and Acting Speaker would be in the 'Premier' section, but that's just a matter of formatting. I'd suggest moving the latter part of this clause to the 'Legislature' part of the document. Secondly, I'd like to express concern at the Acting Speaker being prohibited from being a minister. The AS is, or at least should be, an interim position for the Deputy Speaker (or in my case, the most experienced Senator) – I see no real justification for anyone who is expecting to fulfil this position for a matter of days being forced to resign their ministerial post... Third, it should also probably read: "from holding any other portfolio." Also, as a point of law:
As to take into the account of a prospect of the Senate dissolving itself or being forcibly dissolved in a state of emergency (as is enabled in the Constitution). This would better read as: "(5) The amendments in this act shall come into effect immediately upon the start of the next Senate term." In response to where relevant sections should be placed in the constitution I will bow to the wisdom of the more experienced members on here. I think the main issue is to do with the Deputy Speaker holding ministerial portfolio, as I've previously stated there should be no obstacle to the Deputy Speaker holding a ministerial portfolio given the very much junior aspect of the role. I also think that if the Deputy Speaker is only filling in for a few days and they have a ministerial portfolio that they should not have to give up that portfolio for the duration of the Speaker's absence i.e. Speaker's LOA this could be construed as the Deputy Speaker in the position of Acting Speaker. Therefore that section should probably read-
The only situation where the Deputy Speaker if they have a ministerial portfolio should be required to give up that portfolio is when the Speaker vacates his position and Senate seat as happened with Elpidia, since the Deputy Speaker then becomes the Speaker. In terms of the execution of this amendment i.e. from when it applies I do agree with C on this point in terms of the wording since it makes sense to account for all possibilities no matter how improbable. |
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| CGJ | 11th November 2014 - 11:29 AM Post #12 | |||
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Franz Kaufmann (1886-1944)
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Mr Speaker, I'd like to thank Ach for posting my suggestions in this debate. And, if I may, I'd like to ask Senators that I be enabled to further contribute to this debate from within this topic. CGJ Vice Chancellor Edited by CGJ, 11th November 2014 - 11:42 AM.
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| Tytor | 11th November 2014 - 03:16 PM Post #13 | |||
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New suggestions incorporated. Changes in gold:Regarding the bit currently labeled as (35), I moved it from the Legislature article because the Premier and Vice Premier hadn't been defined yet in the document. If there's a consensus that this should be changed back then I'll change it back. |
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His Majesty Michael the First, by the Grace of God, King of Tytor and her Colonies, and Lord Protector of Floodwater His Excellency Juvenal Massaquoi, President of Ubakasa, Protector of the Revolution, and Father of His People Factbook -- News -- Press Office Former Governor-General of The Infinite Alliance Former Ambassador to Albion and the Global Right Alliance Former Vice Premier and Speaker of the Senate of the Independent Order Professional Procrastinator In firm opposition to Donald Trump's inevitable reelection campaign in 2020 Non-partisan and proud of it "A witty saying proves nothing." - Voltaire | ||||
| Gadshack | 11th November 2014 - 03:44 PM Post #14 | |||
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Watching over this, I have no objection to the current draft Tytor has wrote up for us. I would only like for this amendment to go into effect at the start of next elections. as Ach said before just simply due to current situation of me holding a position in the Ministry at the moment. | |||
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Factbook of Tokulel Ahkabnil Wiki | ||||
| Tytor | 11th November 2014 - 03:48 PM Post #15 | |||
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The current draft does that. "(5) This amendment shall come into effect immediately upon the start of the next Senate’s term." | |||
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His Majesty Michael the First, by the Grace of God, King of Tytor and her Colonies, and Lord Protector of Floodwater His Excellency Juvenal Massaquoi, President of Ubakasa, Protector of the Revolution, and Father of His People Factbook -- News -- Press Office Former Governor-General of The Infinite Alliance Former Ambassador to Albion and the Global Right Alliance Former Vice Premier and Speaker of the Senate of the Independent Order Professional Procrastinator In firm opposition to Donald Trump's inevitable reelection campaign in 2020 Non-partisan and proud of it "A witty saying proves nothing." - Voltaire | ||||
| Gadshack | 11th November 2014 - 05:02 PM Post #16 | |||
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Request granted
Edited by Gadshack, 11th November 2014 - 05:40 PM.
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Factbook of Tokulel Ahkabnil Wiki | ||||
| CGJ | 12th November 2014 - 01:12 PM Post #17 | |||
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Franz Kaufmann (1886-1944)
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^ Well, I'm not sure that's exactly what I said
I would perhaps (to avoid it being repeated with the present Section (15)), reword this as follows: "(15) The Speaker shall, upon taking office, appoint an elected Senator to serve as Deputy Speaker. Should the Speaker declare a leave of absence, the Deputy Speaker shall be responsible for carrying out the functions, duties and responsibilities of the Speaker." Following that, the present Section (15) should be amended as follows: "Should the Speaker go inactive, defined as not having logged into the forum for five (5) days, they shall be deemed to have vacated the office, and the Deputy Speaker shall be appointed by the Grand Chancellor to replace them. If the Deputy Speaker is on leave, inactive as defined in this Section, or otherwise does not wish to be appointed into the position, then the Senate shall elect a new Speaker." |
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| Tytor | 12th November 2014 - 02:48 PM Post #18 | |||
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I think I agree with that. I'll see if I can get that worked in. Changes in gold:Also, the typo in the topic's title is bugging me. Could someone please change it to "Debate: Eighth Constitutional Amendment"? Edited by Tytor, 12th November 2014 - 02:49 PM.
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His Majesty Michael the First, by the Grace of God, King of Tytor and her Colonies, and Lord Protector of Floodwater His Excellency Juvenal Massaquoi, President of Ubakasa, Protector of the Revolution, and Father of His People Factbook -- News -- Press Office Former Governor-General of The Infinite Alliance Former Ambassador to Albion and the Global Right Alliance Former Vice Premier and Speaker of the Senate of the Independent Order Professional Procrastinator In firm opposition to Donald Trump's inevitable reelection campaign in 2020 Non-partisan and proud of it "A witty saying proves nothing." - Voltaire | ||||
| Achkaerin | 14th November 2014 - 04:01 PM Post #19 | |||
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It would seem that we have a general agreement as to the content, I'm also happy with the wording as proposed by Tytor in the above post. Therefore I move that this Bill be put to a vote. | |||
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| CGJ | 14th November 2014 - 04:21 PM Post #20 | |||
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Franz Kaufmann (1886-1944)
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Sorrysorrysorry, just realised I hadn't posted a suggestion Id thought about a while ago: To prevent the Premier and Vice-Premier from becoming Speaker, and the Speaker from being a Minister, I suggest editing the Legislature part of the Constitution to: "(14) The Senate shall vote for a Speaker from their own ranks upon the commencement of the legislative term. The Speaker must not be a minister, and the Premier nor Vice Premier are disqualified from serving this position." And then a new section just below: "Should the Senate be unable to determine a Speaker, after a period of seven (7) days, the Grand Chancellor shall appoint a member of the Senate to serve as Speaker for the remainder of the legislative term." |
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| Tytor | 14th November 2014 - 05:02 PM Post #21 | |||
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I would point out (as I did once before) that both the Premier and the Vice Premier are defined in Article III (sections 24 and 28 respectively). Thus, I believe that either the restrictions placed on the Premier and VP should be placed in Article III or Articles II and III should be swapped. | |||
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His Majesty Michael the First, by the Grace of God, King of Tytor and her Colonies, and Lord Protector of Floodwater His Excellency Juvenal Massaquoi, President of Ubakasa, Protector of the Revolution, and Father of His People Factbook -- News -- Press Office Former Governor-General of The Infinite Alliance Former Ambassador to Albion and the Global Right Alliance Former Vice Premier and Speaker of the Senate of the Independent Order Professional Procrastinator In firm opposition to Donald Trump's inevitable reelection campaign in 2020 Non-partisan and proud of it "A witty saying proves nothing." - Voltaire | ||||
| Sekkanar | 14th November 2014 - 05:39 PM Post #22 | |||
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Why a GC appointment should the speaker go inactive? Could we not just have another election? | |||
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Shiryokokas/Altumhechis Factbook | Meche Factbook | NationStates: Shiryokokas | NationStates: Altumhechis | Nationstates: Meche Veritas et Shiryos | Kamis Nos Anaisutit | Liverta'etal Nezuadkon - The Right Honorable Baroness Sekkanar
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| DaveIronside | 14th November 2014 - 05:45 PM Post #23 | |||
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I think what CGJ means is that if the Senate couldnt agree on a speaker or kept returning tied votes for example on the issue then the GC could step in to ensure the senate doesn't become incapable of operating. At least thats what I think he meant. | |||
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| CGJ | 14th November 2014 - 05:46 PM Post #24 | |||
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Franz Kaufmann (1886-1944)
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Automatic appointment of the Deputy Speaker ![]() And T: hmm...would swapping it cause too many issues? |
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| Tytor | 14th November 2014 - 06:21 PM Post #25 | |||
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Well... Article III mentions the Senate (sections 34 and 35), so that would need to be worked out. I personally would prefer to just leave it as is. | |||
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His Majesty Michael the First, by the Grace of God, King of Tytor and her Colonies, and Lord Protector of Floodwater His Excellency Juvenal Massaquoi, President of Ubakasa, Protector of the Revolution, and Father of His People Factbook -- News -- Press Office Former Governor-General of The Infinite Alliance Former Ambassador to Albion and the Global Right Alliance Former Vice Premier and Speaker of the Senate of the Independent Order Professional Procrastinator In firm opposition to Donald Trump's inevitable reelection campaign in 2020 Non-partisan and proud of it "A witty saying proves nothing." - Voltaire | ||||
| Gadshack | 17th November 2014 - 05:41 PM Post #26 | |||
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I wish to motion this amendment for voting. Can I get an aye? | |||
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Factbook of Tokulel Ahkabnil Wiki | ||||
| Tytor | 17th November 2014 - 06:20 PM Post #27 | |||
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Before the amendment is voted on, I would make just one change (in gold):The change is to make sure it's clear that even the sections between those added are supposed to be renumbered. "Subsequent" implies that only those after the new (35) will undergo such treatment. If there are no objections (or other last-minute additions/changes), then I move that the text above be taken to a vote. |
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His Majesty Michael the First, by the Grace of God, King of Tytor and her Colonies, and Lord Protector of Floodwater His Excellency Juvenal Massaquoi, President of Ubakasa, Protector of the Revolution, and Father of His People Factbook -- News -- Press Office Former Governor-General of The Infinite Alliance Former Ambassador to Albion and the Global Right Alliance Former Vice Premier and Speaker of the Senate of the Independent Order Professional Procrastinator In firm opposition to Donald Trump's inevitable reelection campaign in 2020 Non-partisan and proud of it "A witty saying proves nothing." - Voltaire | ||||
| Achkaerin | 17th November 2014 - 06:33 PM Post #28 | |||
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Well I wanted to move this for a vote a few posts ago, so we can take that along with Gadshack and Tytor's motions meaning that's three of us supporting the call for a vote on this. | |||
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| DaveIronside | 18th November 2014 - 08:43 PM Post #29 | |||
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Bendix Landau (1880-1939)
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And me | |||
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| MikeRaven | 18th November 2014 - 08:52 PM Post #30 | |||
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Looks fine to me. | |||
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| Sekkanar | 19th November 2014 - 12:17 AM Post #31 | |||
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I'm fine with a vote. | |||
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| Major_Thom | 19th November 2014 - 08:35 AM Post #32 | |||
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I second the motion for a vote. | |||
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The Empire of Jukawa History - Geography - Culture - Miltary - Government ![]() Lead by the forever noble and valiant: His Imperial Majesty Khwezi Akufo; Liberator of the Jukawis; heir to the golden stool; exalted son of Asase Ya; and eternal emperor of the Glorious Empire of Jukawa. | ||||
| Achkaerin | 19th November 2014 - 03:40 PM Post #33 | |||
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Mr Speaker the majority of Senators have backed the call for a vote I therefore request you move this Bill to a vote. | |||
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