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IO Religion Discussion thread; here you go Sekk
Topic Started: 4th December 2014 - 04:26 AM (1,177 Views)
Socialist Capitslists
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So let's discuss it Sekk
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Well this happened a while ago, but many new nations have joined since, and many there have left. I, for one wasn't in attendence, and would like to be involved should we do something similar.

In terms of my religion, the main religion in Dyfedia is Ergosm (made up), which is detailed in my Factbook. If other nations wish to have followers of Ergosm in their nations, feel free.

In terms of the presence of IRL religions, I really don't mind what other people do.
Edited by Major_Thom, 4th December 2014 - 04:41 AM.
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Sekkanar
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So, as I currently understand it, the Catholic Church, Christianity in general, as well as the other two main Abrahamic faiths, Judaism and Islam, are established to exist on Mundus. However, as far as I am aware, specific in-setting equivalents for real world holy sites for these faiths, i.e. Jerusalem, the Vatican, Mecca, et cetera, have not been solidly established.

If I were to make a guess as to where it would make the most sense for Mundus's versions of these sites to exist in Mundus, it would be in Ardia or SW Cotf Aranye. My reasoning for the former would be that the Ardian Empire seems to be the rough equivalent of the RL Roman Empire, and so could fulfill the same role in the story of Jesus as the Roman Empire. my reasoning for the latter is that Great Jonathania, a nation which is primarily Jewish (54%) with significant Christian (25%) and Muslim (10%) minorities, is there.
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Major_Thom
4th December 2014 - 04:41 AM
Well this happened a while ago
Oh really? And here I've been thinking about trying to start something like this for couple months now, but I was waiting for the war to end and... How much interest would people have in trying something like this again?
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USR
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There is the Earagon faith. Which has lost many followers for some unknown reason..... and few people seem to remember why....
Edited by USR, 4th December 2014 - 06:51 AM.
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*cough* Soviet Genocide *cough* :P
Edited by Sekkanar, 4th December 2014 - 07:14 AM.
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James_Ed
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In Ireden there are multiple religions in play.

There are minorities of SC's religion, as well as Dave's.

The main ones, however, are as follows.

#sneakydelete
Edited by James_Ed, 22nd December 2014 - 01:12 AM.
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I've been meaning to add some depth to the religous aspect for my nation for a while, although what I have established is mildly islamic-esque, similar to what I believe Jeziel to have done with his. I have also got a fairly islamic-leaning opposition political party, Guiding Light, which are still waiting for their moment in the limelight, so to speak.

That said, this isn't really my forte, so I'll pretty much just be playing tje whole religion thing by ear.

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'Mecca' ought to be in Jeziel's territory that borders Dijel.
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If he agrees, I'd support this.

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Personally I enjoyed creating my own religion the Cult of Helus or Coriaism, I prefer the Cult of Helus, it sounds cooler. As such Keepton and Northfort are my equivalent of Jerusalem and mecca, I know Meche has some followers but I'm always happy for others to follow it.
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I do share some of Dave's enjoyment- the Deum Beastia (or Deum Bestia can't remember how I spell it) faith which I created for Achkaerin (yes fine it's got it's roots in the Elder Scrolls series get over it) was great fun to put together and I look forward to developing it. If I have a Holy City I guess it would be the city of Sanctuary, though as some of you are aware I do have Luna Isle as a Holy Site as well.
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I just got an idea about how we can resolve the whole Catholicism IC thing. I believe that since my religion appears more organized that the Catholicism in IO how about we make Catholicism the Protestantism of IO with my religion being the original one. It also makes sense as the history of it could be that one of my popes is like 'everyone gay people are ok', this is around Med evil times for history, and since the 'schism' where all the other people being like, we don't approve etc. Also since they would be the Protestantism of my religion they can have the same holy sights as me, not have due to them being not organized enough and other more minor reasons. Anything wrong with this idea?
Edited by Socialist Capitslists, 4th December 2014 - 11:21 AM.
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Tytor
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Yeah, two things:

First, your religion's not Christian.

Second, Protestantism exists too.

I think that we should leave the holy sites (it's "sites", not "sights") of Christianity and other RL religions deliberately vague, because then, even if the nations currently occupying those spots cease to exists, people can still use them. I, for one, am not going to be willing to tie Christianity to Transvaal. Period. If it's left vague, then it's more user-friendly for new members.
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I tend to agree with Tytor on this.

I think we have to be careful with religions that exist in reality such as Christianity (and all denominations thereof), Islam, Judaism, Buddhism etc because these will be unless the state says otherwise be located throughout the map. So specifically marking holy sites for such faiths would be difficult- plus the other flaw with Transvaal being the original nation is the predecessor nation to Transvaal's territory Elpidia.

On the other hand in the case of religions we've created such as the Cult of Helus, Deum Beastia, Earagon etc we can be a lot more precise since they are Mundus exclusive religions (by which I mean they don't exist in real life) so for these we can pin down holy sites if we so wish (at least I think we can).
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Tytor
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This is made easier if the IC religion is limited to a single nation, as then if said nation ceases to exist, the religion ceases to exist as well.
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Yeah I agree to having Mecca at our border Dijel considering the close proximity of similar cultural factors!
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Sekkanar
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Perhaps we can just relocate the holy sites when nations hosting them disappear. We've certainly allowed for the relocation of entire nations, as is shown by the examples of Azrea, Veashak, Verover, United Nations North America, and Tristantia, so it doesn't seem to be an unreasonable notion to me.
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Tytor
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I think we'd all prefer to avoid situations like that. IC, I will ignore any attempt to institute parallel versions of RL holy sites for any RL religion. I think that if a nation really wants a holy site within its borders, but happens to have adopted a RL religion, it can have a regional site, but not necessarily one that's recognized as holy by followers of that faith in other countries.
Edited by Tytor, 4th December 2014 - 06:33 PM.
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Let's just establish the difference here for a second please. In terms of relocating countries that's one thing and should only happen when a nation vanishes, is removed from the map and then returns but their original territory is now claimed by someone else, in the case of Azrea I made an exception for reasons noted in the map thread. However in cases such as that we are primarily talking RP wise about a migration of people not buildings.

Let's be hypothetical and suggest for the moment that Dominiscius has the Mundus version of the Vatican, that nation is currently on the Eviction list and now let's assume it comes off the map- two weeks later a new nation is put on the map in the same territory that Dominiscius occupied, it is not incumbent on the new nation to continue having the religious site in that area to make that the case would be unfair. So the only logical way about it is to say that when a nation is taken off the map all the religious sites within that nation are presumed to be off the map as well.

In the case of Catholicism however you have another problem which is the Pope- if the nation with the Vatican is removed then you must assume the Pope is also removed- which is a logistical nightmare we don't need.

Once again I therefore agree with the above point by Tytor.
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Ok then if mines not going to be christian based then everyone can stop calling it so. Also tytor I never said that it was Protestantism I just said it would have been the Protestantism to my religion. Meaning that it would be another branch of sorts. (you read the spelling mistake but didn't stay around to focus on the other stuff)
Edited by Socialist Capitslists, 5th December 2014 - 12:12 AM.
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Tytor
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No, I read what you said. But I've also read the description you gave of the Church of the Prophet in your factbook. It's incompatible with Christianity.
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Well I'm using a RL religion however exploding the scale of it, luckily for me there are no religious leaders in Odinism or sacred sites, just traditional shrines and groves etc and they can be anywhere so figure I'm good.
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Toshikawa is primarily Zen Bushi, a type of 'common' Buddhism that follows the Buke Code(aka Bushido Code). Unlike Buddhism, which requires you to seek refuge(also known as Sangha) in closed communities with fellow followers(monks, nuns, etc) to be considered Buddhist. Now that really depends on what type of Buddhism really, I'm going off of the general beliefs and the original teachings of the Buddha, which say just that. Zen Bushi is made so that the principles of Buddhism and indoctrinated codes of the Buke can be lived on by commoners who can't really sacrifice dropping their lives and joining Monks or Nuns and becoming a Buke. I have yet to fully explain the history of Zen Bushi fully so It's a bit sketchy :P It has a dark past for why it was created despite it's Zen-like principles and codes.

Also, there is your typical Buddhism, which are divided in their own sects based on the RL ones. Mahayana Buddhism, Vajrayana Buddhism and Theravada Buddhism.

I'm assuming Zen Bushi is a religion followed internationally by some(like Toshikawan minorities or those who simply convert), as I assume there are Christian, Helus, etc, followers in Toshikawa.
Edited by Gadshack, 6th December 2014 - 09:58 AM.
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^though there are Lay Buddhist, followers who are not monks. Just have to be committed to the five precepts. Still, I created Zen Bushi as a fusion of feudal Japanese Bushido and Buddhism.
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Seaforth is 90% catholic, but its the Pope Francis version of catholicism. The head of the church in Seaforth is a Cardinal. There is a Pope and a Vatican, but I have never referred to them IC and have never stated where they are. As i am doing storylines that involve the church, hospitallers and the like, I wont be altering the religion or becoming an offshoot of SC's.
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There are Catholics in Tytor as well. They're the second largest religious group, in fact, comprising about 9.5% of the population. The Church of Tytor, which I've mostly based on Anglicanism, makes up about 67.8%, with other Christians making up another 1.6%. Other religions (such as Judaism, Islam, Rosarity, Earagon, etc.) collectively make up 7.2%. Around 13.9% are either atheists or agnostics, due mostly to the communist period, during which religion of all sorts was outlawed and actively persecuted.
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It's been a while since I did the numbers, so might as well do them anew. ^^

Rosari Faithful: 83.5%
Cult of Helus: 5%
Protestant: 4%
Catholicism: 4%
Other: 3.5%

It's interesting to see the level of diversity in several non-RL religions alongside RL religions, too.
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My Religion uses a lot of stuff from Catholicism but it is not an off shoot because it has a different back story and other stuff. What I would have really have like to have done is make it more based around Orthodoxy, so it would be more independent of other IO religions but such is life.

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Folk Ireden religions: 3%
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My nation's religion isn't strictly Islam but it is based on certain aspects. What's strange is that I've not given it a name haha!
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I've rethought mine and am currently thinking that Ireden would have something alike to the following numbers:

34% Ergosm (Ergosm being an IO only religion that Thom and I created)
25% Iredic Paganism (I haven't decided on an official name)
14% Atheism
9% Earagon
5% Cult of Helus
4% Islam
3% Catholicism
2% Church of the Prophet
1% Baha'i Faith
0.7% Protestantism
0.3% Judaism
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21st December 2014 - 10:55 PM
My Religion uses a lot of stuff from Catholicism but it is not an off shoot because it has a different back story and other stuff. What I would have really have like to have done is make it more based around Orthodoxy, so it would be more independent of other IO religions but such is life.

SC religions

My Church: 97%

Folk Ireden religions: 3%
Here's the way I, as an outsider, perceive the Church of the Prophet. It looks a lot like a mix between Roman Catholicism and Islam. It seems to have the structure of Catholicism and the basic core beliefs of Islam. Like Islam, it venerates a mortal prophet. It also makes absolutely no mention of Jesus Christ, making it clear that it is not even slightly Christian.
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The Prophet part is the only thing from Islam. In my religion you can't say the prophets name, whereas in Islam we know his name is Muhammad. In mine you can have Idolatry of my person whereas in Islam you can not. Whereas the beliefs are more christian. Also, my church follow the teachings etc of the prophet person. Similar to exactly every Christianity ever. Also I have yet to give the prophet a name so for all you know his actual name could be Jesus Christ. Also my prophet is not mortal.
Edited by Socialist Capitslists, 22nd December 2014 - 03:46 AM.
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Tytor
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In Islam, you are not allowed to depict Muhammad (or any other prophet) in images of any sort. It seems like a simple thing to merely switch that for a ban on speaking the prophet in question's name. Furthermore, Muslims happen to venerate Christ as a prophet. This does not in any way shape or form make them Christian. The very suggestion would likely offend many of them. Your prophet is thought of as having led the people of Transvaal to freedom or out of darkness or whatever it was, making the Church of the Prophet a highly ethnic religion (aka: not Christianity). As I see it, it doesn't matter what name you give the prophet. He is not, never has been and never will be, Jesus Christ. Thank you very much, have a nice day, etc., etc., etc.
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Then point out where Jerusalem, Antioch and Bethlehem Is on the IO map and i'll stop also the Roman Empire where did that exist because isn't that also a bit key in Christianity and frankly I never really wanted it to be a branch of my church I was just spit balling an idea which would have ended the debate. A gap would have been filled as to where the hell did Catholicism come from also I never said Muslims were Christians I just said that my religion follows the teachings of my prophet 'Similar to exactly every Christianity branch ever' Also Prophet did not bring people out of darkness just spread the religion, your thinking of Pastor John who led my people from the old RUS empire to Transvaal.
Edited by Socialist Capitslists, 22nd December 2014 - 04:28 AM.
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Toshikawa:

Zen Bushi: 65%
Buddhist: 25%
Cult of Helus: 8%
Other(Christianity, Islam, Rosari, etc): 2%
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22nd December 2014 - 04:27 AM
Then point out where Jerusalem, Antioch and Bethlehem Is on the IO map and i'll stop also the Roman Empire where did that exist because isn't that also a bit key in Christianity and frankly I never really wanted it to be a branch of my church I was just spit balling an idea which would have ended the debate. A gap would have been filled as to where the hell did Catholicism come from also I never said Muslims were Christians I just said that my religion follows the teachings of my prophet 'Similar to exactly every Christianity branch ever' Also Prophet did not bring people out of darkness just spread the religion, your thinking of Pastor John who led my people from the old RUS empire to Transvaal.
Because Christianity is a real-life religion, those parallels have been left deliberately vague. We already decided that. In this very thread, in fact. Your prophet is not Jesus Christ, and to suggest otherwise while insisting that he is somehow inextricably linked to your nation is actually mildly offensive. As a Christian, I would appreciate it if you would cease and desist in this nonsense of attempting to draw parallels that, quite simply, do not exist. If you want to be Christian, be Christian. But you do not have the power to make unilateral decisions about RL religions, especially not without the knowledge and explicit consent of every other Christian nation in the RP.
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Again Tytor you forget to read what I have previously stated. That I was just throwing ideas around about how to solve the issue. Another thing you say that all these other things such as Jerusalem and Antioch have their equivalents in IO and yet you still never said where they were. Another thing I never said my prophets name was Jesus Christ just said it could have been. Another thing being christian does not mean you are somehow immune to offense. It's one of the downsides of living in a free nation is that sometimes you don't always hear what you want, so if no i'm not going to be sorry just because I came up with an idea for something that doesn't even exist. Speaking of things that don't exist. No actually I won't go that far. Also would it kill for you to get some imagination because if I remember well this is an RP forum, meaning that it is not representative of real life, meaning that if I right something on here it will not become real and help people role play. Another thing you were the only one here who said he couldn't be Jesus. So hope you read this very thoroughly as I would hate for you to slip up next time you post something.
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USR
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Oh god. This thread can only get better... I'm serious. Anything is better then this stupid argument.
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Gadshack
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I can teach everyone about the fruits of Buddhism and how no one get's in arguments about it like this :P
Edited by Gadshack, 22nd December 2014 - 11:52 PM.
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CGJ
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On a serious note, let's refrain in future from taking personal digs at each other. If people wish to squabble, at least do it over PM.

Thank you :)
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I'm going to stop knowing me as me. (thing about it ;D)
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Achkaerin
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At the risk of repeating myself let me try to clear this up-

yes RL religions have equivalents of holy sites such as Jerusalem, Bethlehem etc however we've never said where they are and the reason has been previously mentioned and explained (I believe it was by me) but here it is again-

If we for the sake of argument say that the equivalent of the Vatican is in let's say Seaforth and for some reason Rhodes has to leave the region thus resulting in the removal of Seaforth from the regional map. The assumption we work under is that when a nation is removed from the map everything within that nations borders is also removed.

Now let's follow up hypothetically and say that a new nation which I will for the sake of argument call Derralia (in reality my first nation from years ago that's now inactive) turns up and takes Seaforth's spot on the map now because of the assumption detailed in the previous paragraph Derralia would be under no obligation to include any aspect of Seaforth in its history, society, culture etc this would include any holy sites so in the example I'm detailing the Vatican. The reason we have this assumption is to make it as fair as possible on new nations, of course if a new nation wishes to incorporate a previous nation in their history as Anayahland has done so in terms of Veashak then that's absolutely fine.

So that's why we haven't specified exact locations of Christian, Islamic, Buddhist and other RL religions holy sites.
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