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| General Assembly Debate - Proposal to Amend Statute of International Court of Justice | ||||
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| Topic Started: 10th May 2015 - 07:07 PM (1,088 Views) | ||||
| DaveIronside | 10th May 2015 - 07:07 PM Post #1 | |||
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Bendix Landau (1880-1939)
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Submitting country name: Kingdom of Dartfordia Countries involved: All Title of submission: Proposal to Amend the Statute of the International Court of Justice Description: The Kingdom of Dartfordia seeks to amend Article 11, Section 1 of the Statute of the International Court of Justice. Whereas presently it sets out a one-year term, renewable once, we believe that this is too short a period for sufficient experience and knowledge to be realised in the court. Therefore, we seek that the Statute is amended as follows: '1. The members of the Court shall be elected for five years and may be re-elected consecutively only once.' Any other details: In accordance with Article 62 of the statute: 'Amendments to the present Statute shall be effected by the same procedure as is provided by the Charter of the Commonwealth Treaty Organisation for amendments to that Charter, subject however to any provisions which the General Assembly upon recommendation of the Security Council may adopt concerning the participation of states which are parties to the present Statute but are not Members of the Commonwealth Treaty Organisation. " The floor is now open for debate. |
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| CGJ | 14th May 2015 - 07:52 PM Post #2 | |||
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Franz Kaufmann (1886-1944)
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Naturally I support this amendment
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| Achkaerin | 14th May 2015 - 08:04 PM Post #3 | |||
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Question: Since the CTO exists within our Regional RP I am curious as to whether we're regarding our characters as doing this or not. If it's supposed to be IC then consider this an OOC point of view the spirit of which is my IC opinion
Appears fine however I take issue with the 'only once' since it seems absurd to restrict them like that when there isn't a defined number of judges permitted on the bench, we simply allow one judge per nation. (Additionally there will be those of us including myself who do not want to have to dream up a second judge in the near future to replace the first). Now if the court was elected in a similar way to the Security Council in format I could maybe understand but since it isn't there's no sense in limiting the amount of time a Judge is permitted to serve since every member nation of the CTO is afforded a seat for a Judge in the court. Therefore I suggest that the 'only once' be dropped and that the decision of which Judges are nominated from nations remains completely in the hands of the member nations. |
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| CGJ | 14th May 2015 - 09:59 PM Post #4 | |||
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Franz Kaufmann (1886-1944)
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OOC: So: ''1. The members of the Court shall be elected for five years and may be re-elected.'' ? |
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| Achkaerin | 14th May 2015 - 10:00 PM Post #5 | |||
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OOC- Yes C that's my preference. | |||
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| Epanastasia | 14th May 2015 - 11:16 PM Post #6 | |||
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We in Epanastasia find that political occupations should be held for a four-year term, with an optional term extension that is voted upon by the citizen populous. For example, if the president is in office for his full four years, a mini-election is held to see if the country wants to extend his term anywhere from 1-2 more years. This process may be more complicated, but we find it to be very efficient and all-around healthier for the people. |
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| Gadshack | 14th May 2015 - 11:18 PM Post #7 | |||
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Nueva Ardia supports it
Edited by Gadshack, 14th May 2015 - 11:18 PM.
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Factbook of Tokulel Ahkabnil Wiki | ||||
| Verover | 14th May 2015 - 11:29 PM Post #8 | |||
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I Joined Feb. 6, 2014
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As a nation that values the democratic ideals of opportunity and fairness, we do not support the passage of this amendment. There are three main points to our argument. The first reason is that the CTO is an organization aimed at getting all of the nations of Mundus involved in a single unifying organization with equal representation. We believe that this new amendment will impress on the goal of the CTO. The second reason for our opposition is because we believe that this can easily become a power grab by the major powers of Mundus. Some examples of said nations include Rokkenjima, Dartfordia, East Moreland, and Tytor. These world powers are very much intertwined with each other in the regards of international politics and have the ability to keep each others representatives in power. This would make the other members of the CTO be uninvolved in the Court. The final reason for our opposition is because we believe that the elections for the Court should occur twice a year, not once every five years (please correct me if I am wrong). By making elections twice a year, it would allow other smaller nations a chance of obtaining the office other than the major world powers permanently having them. (OOC: Elections twice a year would also be a lot more fair to new members and those who want to get involved) |
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| CGJ | 14th May 2015 - 11:41 PM Post #9 | |||
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Franz Kaufmann (1886-1944)
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(OOC: To note, when new members join, they will automatically elect a member to the court. This amendment just increases the amount of time between the times when we all have to re-elect our existing judges. Do note that this about the International Court of Justice and amending the Statute, it's not for political positions. Also Alphafailed, this discussion is for CTO members, but you're more than welcome to sign up! )
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| Verover | 14th May 2015 - 11:44 PM Post #10 | |||
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I Joined Feb. 6, 2014
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(OOC: So every member of the CTO will have a representative on the court??) | |||
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| Beatrice | 14th May 2015 - 11:51 PM Post #11 | |||
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Rokkenjima, a nation which believes in democracy, the rule of law and fair, just and impartial rulings supports the passage of the amendment proposed by the Kingdom of Dartfordia. As the representative from Verover has proposed three arguments against, I shall address them. The first reason is easily enough dismissed, as nothing in the proposed Amendment denies any nation upon Mundus from being involved, or taking part, in the CTO nor does it impede upon equal representation. All nations shall remain to have the same, equal, opportunity as any other CTO member in this aspect of the organisation. Furthermore, I do not believe that this Amendment will represent a 'power grab' as, again, the selection and election of Justices is an open process. The nations listed by the representative from Verover are all nations which have active foreign policies and dedicated diplomatic staff; should they thus be punished for showing dedication and concern for the world around them? All, except for one, are signatories to the MCUR. I would challenge the representative from Verover to not so quickly write off the spirit of international cooperation and equality, a cause which all the nations he has listed have fought for, as such an attitude consigns the CTO to the very fate he fears. Speaking for Rokkenjima herself, our history has seen example after example of empowering independent voices without impeding upon their sovereign policy and will, thus concern that she would seek to silence their voices or impede upon their ability to participate in international institutions is, quite simply, absurd. Finally, as the Kingdom of Dartfordia has highlighted, the present term is far too short for sufficient experience and knowledge to be realized in the Court. The International Court is a vital international institution which requires stability and consistency, two things which cannot be realized under the present language. Smaller nations will have the same opportunities available to larger nations under the new language, as nothing in the proposed Amendment excludes or empowers any one nation, or group of nations. With that said these concerns, while well-intentioned, are not within the realm of possibility under either wording. |
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| Rhodes | 15th May 2015 - 05:05 AM Post #12 | |||
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OOC: Verover, the discussion I took part in regarding the court, on IRC, had each CTO signatory appoint a judge to the court. Then on a case by case basis, a panel of judges would be selected from that pool for each case, excluding judges from the plaintiff/defendant nation. The statute CGJ linked is a broken document as no right minded nation would ever sign on to be subject to a court where a judge of their nationality was not present or a part of the pool, that's insanity. You are right in that each nation should be represented equally in the court by a judge, though that judge will obviously not partake in a case in which that nation is a plaintiff or defendent. I also see no place where the statute of the court, linked by CGJ, was discussed or people were allowed input into its creation and how the court would operate, I only see a mention of the court in the CTO charter. | |||
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| CGJ | 15th May 2015 - 09:17 AM Post #13 | |||
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Franz Kaufmann (1886-1944)
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This is how the system works:
The way we agreed on IRC: All members nominate on person, they are elected en masse. When cases arrive they are done in the above format. The line '1. The Court shall consist of three to six members, no two of whom may be nationals of the same state or the same region.' refers simply to the number of judges who can sit on the bench at any one time.
It was discussed here, and rather extensively on IRC. We did leave a substantial period of time (7 days) for it to be discussed, but only myself, Beatrice, Dave and Ach took an interest. If you feel things could be worded/structured better, then you're more than welcome to submit your own proposals for consideration. |
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| DaveIronside | 15th May 2015 - 09:49 AM Post #14 | |||
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Bendix Landau (1880-1939)
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OOC - Personally I feel that denying a nation the freedom to appoint whoever they wish is a bit pointless. If in 2015 Joe Bloggs is the best qualified judge in EM and gets the job, and he is still the best qualified in 2020 then he should get it again. I also think we should determine a length of service in terms of a RL time frame rather than five years. Broadly speaking I support the amendment. |
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| Achkaerin | 15th May 2015 - 09:57 AM Post #15 | |||
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OOC- The Secretary General term is listed as three months as an RL time scale anyone who's been on IRC recently will know I've been advocating that the Security Council elections should coincide time wise with that (and I do plan to make a submission on that at some point later) I would suggest we do the same with the election of judges we may even lengthen the Judges to two RL terms since every nation is granted one. | |||
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| DaveIronside | 15th May 2015 - 10:34 AM Post #16 | |||
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Bendix Landau (1880-1939)
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OOC- Can I make a further suggestion as to the debate, can we stop relying on IRC discussions for this. I know they can be very useful and I've been party to some myself. I just feel that because of time differences and the fact some users don't come into the chat room it gives the impression a group of us are debating this in private and that this will essentially be how things go. I realise this is not the case at all but with my Secretary General Stetson on I think I should urge that the debate happen here and not on IRC. | |||
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| Gadshack | 15th May 2015 - 12:09 PM Post #17 | |||
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Yeah, discussions about these subjects should be banned from IRC it makes out the look like some elite IRC Illuminati controlling what goes.
Edited by Gadshack, 15th May 2015 - 12:09 PM.
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Factbook of Tokulel Ahkabnil Wiki | ||||
| Verover | 15th May 2015 - 02:22 PM Post #18 | |||
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I Joined Feb. 6, 2014
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OOC- If every nation will be able to participate, then you have my vote | |||
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| Rhodes | 15th May 2015 - 03:11 PM Post #19 | |||
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OOC: thanks for the links CGJ, that was about the time I was gearing up for my LOA so could have missed it. Reread the statute this morning, somehow Article 4 wasnt jiving in my brain last night. All good now and actually makes supporting this amendment make sense. Also, banning IRC may be a little much. What you need to do is post a log or make a post/thread going over what was talked about in IRC to keep the general population up to speed. Basically the board ensures that all have a chance to partake and should be the primary means of comm, IRC secondary. Edited by Rhodes, 15th May 2015 - 03:15 PM.
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| DaveIronside | 17th May 2015 - 08:43 PM Post #20 | |||
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Bendix Landau (1880-1939)
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With this having been open for a week now and the only thing I think we now need to determine is the length of a RL term. Might I suggest a system where we say at the same point of Sec-Gen and Security Council elections (assuming that debate gets passed) and that once nominated unless otherwise stated as the nomination time the judge of a nation retains the position , this will probably save people some time and chasing people who forgot. | |||
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| Achkaerin | 17th May 2015 - 08:54 PM Post #21 | |||
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Agreed we should from this point assume that an RL term is three months. I also agree with all of the proposal Dave has made. | |||
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| Rhodes | 17th May 2015 - 09:02 PM Post #22 | |||
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Thirded? | |||
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| CGJ | 17th May 2015 - 10:47 PM Post #23 | |||
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Franz Kaufmann (1886-1944)
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In that case can we omit '5' and replace it with 3? This'll bring it in-line with the SC. | |||
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| DaveIronside | 18th May 2015 - 02:44 PM Post #24 | |||
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Bendix Landau (1880-1939)
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I assume therefore we are looking at the present change? "'1. The members of the Court shall be elected for three years and may be re-elected consecutively." "Three years" being deemed as three RL months? |
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| Achkaerin | 18th May 2015 - 03:04 PM Post #25 | |||
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I believe so. | |||
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| CGJ | 18th May 2015 - 05:49 PM Post #26 | |||
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Franz Kaufmann (1886-1944)
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Aye. | |||
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| DaveIronside | 20th May 2015 - 07:33 AM Post #27 | |||
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Bendix Landau (1880-1939)
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CGJ's originaly proposal read "The Kingdom of Dartfordia seeks to amend Article 11, Section 1 of the Statute of the International Court of Justice. Whereas presently it sets out a one-year term, renewable once, we believe that this is too short a period for sufficient experience and knowledge to be realised in the court. Therefore, we seek that the Statute is amended as follows: '1. The members of the Court shall be elected for five years and may be re-elected consecutively only once.' HOWEVER Following debate this is now changed to "The Kingdom of Dartfordia seeks to amend Article 11, Section 1 of the Statute of the International Court of Justice. Whereas presently it sets out a one-year term, renewable once, we believe that this is too short a period for sufficient experience and knowledge to be realised in the court. Therefore, we seek that the Statute is amended as follows: '1. The members of the Court shall be elected for three years and may be re-elected consecutively" (This would give a RL term of three months) Therefore I believe that we should move this to a vote. |
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| CGJ | 20th May 2015 - 08:57 AM Post #28 | |||
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Franz Kaufmann (1886-1944)
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Dartfordia seconds the motion and votes aye. | |||
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| Beatrice | 20th May 2015 - 05:26 PM Post #29 | |||
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Rokkenjima votes aye. | |||
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| hobbes | 20th May 2015 - 05:30 PM Post #30 | |||
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Memer-in-Chief
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South Hills votes yes. | |||
important message![]() <@CGJ> Hobbes wants to save lives, not end them <@CGJ> He creates enough burn victims in a day to effectively keep himself paid ![]() Sparta: (hobbes is) the god the Independent Order deserves, but not the one anyone cares about right now. | ||||
| Achkaerin | 20th May 2015 - 05:47 PM Post #31 | |||
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Achkaerin votes Aye | |||
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| Gadshack | 20th May 2015 - 06:19 PM Post #32 | |||
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Nueva ardia votes AYE
Edited by Gadshack, 20th May 2015 - 06:20 PM.
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Factbook of Tokulel Ahkabnil Wiki | ||||
| Rhodes | 20th May 2015 - 06:33 PM Post #33 | |||
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Aye | |||
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| Sekkanar | 20th May 2015 - 07:14 PM Post #34 | |||
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Aye | |||
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| DaveIronside | 26th May 2015 - 03:45 PM Post #35 | |||
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Bendix Landau (1880-1939)
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East Moreland votes Aye | |||
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| Dijel | 26th May 2015 - 08:57 PM Post #36 | |||
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Aye | |||
Old Sig, for Posterity
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| Verover | 27th May 2015 - 02:04 AM Post #37 | |||
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I Joined Feb. 6, 2014
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Aye | |||
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| DaveIronside | 30th May 2015 - 03:37 PM Post #38 | |||
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Bendix Landau (1880-1939)
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With Ten votes for and none against I consider this motion to have passed. | |||
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^ 7:04 PM Jul 11
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May the force be with you.


















it makes out the look like some elite IRC Illuminati controlling what goes.




- The Right Honorable Baroness Sekkanar

