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DEBATE (relaunch) - Northern Borland
Topic Started: 18th January 2016 - 09:17 AM (998 Views)
NordicPeoples
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"With the issue of admissions procedures out of the way we still have the question of the application of the Principality of Northern Borland, an application that formed the catalyst for the whole admissions debate and a matter that is still unresolved. To my knowledge discussions in the office of the Achkaerin delegation have yielded no new compromise and therefore it has become necessary to restart the discussion. Now from my understanding of the situation, and I hope the delegates from Rokkenjima and Achkaerin will correct me if I'm wrong" Birgit began, " We had a situation of two differing resolutions, one supported by Rokkenjima and Lakhzovia amongst others, and the other proposed by Achkaerin. I believe a good place to start would be to ask members their current thoughts on the situation as I believe politically speaking much has changed since the debate started almost a month ago."
[1] OOC- Under Article 4 they're supposed to though I doubt an SC discussion thread will actually be necessary. Since me, Gad and Sekk can probably establish this over IRC or by PM
[2] OOC- On the basis that Rokkenjima's never going to let anyone from Borland in and I don't think we want to get into spy games.
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"Madame Secretary-General with the passing of the Admissions Procedure resolution we now have an established process for matters such as this. I therefore move that both the Achkaerin and Rokkenjiman drafts that we have before us be struck out and that if Borland wishes to apply for membership it does so through the established process, that of an application in writing with the endorsement of three member nations. Let us start as we mean to go on."
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"Might I remind the Assembly however that to the international community that may smack of moving the goalposts. At the time of the initial application the procedures that all member nations had complied with were followed. To some it may seem that simply because some members wish to exclude the Principality we postponed their application and then established new rules, now should the General Assembly wish the approach of making Borland now resubmit following their application having been sat in limbo for a month then of course that is the route we must go down, however I believe doing that will present the Principality with a propaganda tool and we have seen how effective they are. However my role is merely one of the administrator and public face of this organisation, if its membership wishes to follow this route then it is this route we shall follow. I'd however like to first hear the opinions of more members before we put what Ms.Holmes is suggesting to a vote."
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"I would remind the Secretary-General that during the adjournment we held compromise talks with Lakhzovia and Rokkenjima amongst and during those talks we decided that the rules for admission needed to be known, hence our submission of the relevant resolution. I would also remind the delegates that the detail of what was said during the debate on the admissions procedure means that there is no choice legally speaking between the two drafts before us if we continue to debate the two as to which should prevail- that is an inescapable fact regardless of the personal opinions of the members.

I will also remind the Assembly that the initial motion concerned simply recognition of the Principality and we have since been going in circles so with no progress it seems reasonable to apply the new procedure and remember even if we resolve this today if we don't actually vote on their admittance then there is nothing to stop them applying again tomorrow at which point they would be subject to the new procedure- and since we're in a situation where we'll in all likelihood have to apply the new procedure sooner or later I say better to use the new procedure now than continue to go round in circles."
Edited by Achkaerin, 18th January 2016 - 01:03 PM.
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"I agree, this whole saga has grown from something such as a simple recognition to something that has gone round 'n round for way too long. I also agree on the fact that if we say no to Borland it'll give them something to go out and nag about. But not only would it give them something to, as said before, 'cry foul' about it, it might even give 'em some reasons to say 'hey, you know, the whole CTO is full of bigots!'. It's certainly not a word any of you would want to associate with the CTO now would you? Not only might it hurt our reputation, it'd give the Borland terrorist groups reason to attack any of our nations regardless if we were for or against their admission or recognition or what-not.

And lastly, I do believe that now we've really reached common ground for admission criteria, now is the opportune moment to use this admission procedure. Because now some Borlanders might think to themselves, 'Hey, this new admission procedure thing sounds pretty fair, I'm sure it could accommodate for any nation, even ours.'. And again if we say no now it'll cause even more ripples, cause even more discontent between us and the Borlanders, because our new and supposedly improved admission procedure wouldn't accommodate for them. So I truly believe now that we have the criteria down for admittance, we should use it."
Edited by Luvonia, 19th January 2016 - 12:58 AM.
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"With all due respect Mr. Ren Borland has been a force which has attacked several nations, Rokkenjima and countless other among them. Borland is, and continues to be, the foremost terrorist enterprise in the history of Mundus, an enterprise which has the blood of countless innocents at its feet. To treat them for what they are and deny them recognition is not bigotry, and to bring such sentiments into play is a straw man to the issue at hand. Should the CTO recognize a terrorist organisation which has had the dumb luck of acquiring some land as eligible for membership in the CTO or should we rightly treat them as a terrorist organisation?"

"Borland is not a nation, and I continue to question the motives of those who so desperately hope to see recognition and a path to legitimacy provided to Borland in its present form. The Rokkenjiman Draft provides a path for a legitimate Borland, and it should be upon them to accept that path. The international community cannot, and should not, be expected to pander to the interests of a terrorist organisation; to do so would hamper the interests of the CTO and have repercussions which extend far beyond this one situation."
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"Ms Faust you miss the point." Cheryl said "What we say today does not matter. What may happen tomorrow does- whether it be what we say or you say if we pass either draft today then Borland can apply again tomorrow under the new procedure and supersede today's decision.

I will also point out that your resolution itself is void. In the course of the admissions procedure debate I argued that and Mr Hokh argued that the CTO does not have the authority to grant sovereignty it therefore follows logically that we do not have the power to with hold sovereignty either so you would need to amend your resolution to reflect that.

However that is all now irrelevant the fact is that we can say no to Borland today but because we have changed the procedure they can reapply tomorrow under the new procedure, that only serves one purpose which is to drag the debate on for longer than it needs to. Let's strike out the existing drafts and put the ball in Borland's court and if they wish to apply let them. But let's not give them the chance to rage, let's do this right and in accordance with established procedure.
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As the delegates argued amongst themselves, the Dartfordian representative contemplated hooking his laptop charger to the ceiling and using it as a noose to hang himself. "Please..." he said, exasperated. "We've been debating this ad nauseum. Could we please just move on. The Achkaerinese government is correct to say that CTO cannot determine what a sovereign nation is, for that we must use the general international application – recognition. If only a minority of states recognise it, then it's not a fully sovereign state. Members of CTO are, however, fully sovereign in that they are recognised by the vast majority of other sovereign nations. That's settled. But I do formally propose that this debate is ended as it serves no real purpose. If the Security Council wishers to refer the Borland Separatists to the General Assembly, then so be it, but otherwise this matter is resolved." He stood. "Would anyone like a tea or coffee?"
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Zuko smiled, there was an informal air about the Dartfordians he loved. "If that is a serious offer, yes please, I would love some coffee."

Meanwhile, the Nueva Ardian delegate sat back, angrily steaming at Zuko. How the CTO could turn it's back on the injustice on the Andean Peninsula truly showed it's uselessness.
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"Then that is a suggestion the Security Council should act upon in haste," Yuriko continued as she made eye contact with the Toshikawan representative. "We must consider two things: one, the precedent which would be established by recognizing Borland as sovereign and what that means when the CTO deals with other terrorist organisations and two, the implications the decision will have for the inhabitants of the self-proclaimed Principality itself. And yes," she turned to the Dartfordian delegate, "I'd love a nice tea."
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"I believe we have possibly two decisions to make here." Birgit stated, "The first is this, do we say that the Principality must now reapply, that being the case then we must also have the applications of East Farthing, Arendesia, Acquitane and Tziyon follow that procedure lest we be accused of treating nations differently. Alternatively we can say those nations who applied before the new procedure follow the old system. [1]. The second thing would then be to consider how each nation would wish to vote on the Borland issue, should the first vote insist on a re-application then the second point is mute and for another time. I would like nations to focus on the first question rather than returning to whether the Borlanders are terrorist or a sovereign nation. Should we determine they must re-apply then I feel they may struggle to get the signatures of support required and all that has been said would be a waste of breath. However should we determine that a vote based on their initial application should take place then we can commence debate following that."
[1] OOC - I think that even though CGJ has updated the registry to include East Farthing and Arendesia we should take the start date of the Borland debate as the date at which applications were paused to allow the admissions thing to be heard.
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OOC- Didn't Nueva Ardia leave the CTO?

"The issue is one of simplicity and common sense there is little point in dragging out a debate which is now meaningless given that on this particular matter if we say no under the old system Borland can simply reapply under the new one- given the change of circumstances in terms of admission. However to say no under the new system is to establish a level of finality about the matter until such time as the circumstances within the Principality itself change.

Now I won't at this point correct the Dartfordian delegate completely but first things first the Security Council is not required to refer the matter to the General Assembly under the new procedure the onus is firstly on Borland itself to apply in writing, if it does that then it requires three endorsements and if it receives those then provided they can meet the other associated criteria stated in the resolution then the matter of membership status for the applicant is open for debate. The Security Council then makes a recommendation as to membership and the General Assembly would then debate and vote. At least that is my understanding of the new procedure based on the way it is worded." Cheryl said

"I also suggest that we take the pending membership applications en bloc at least at the endorsement stage, since it will be far easier to present the nations and then establish which ones have the required endorsements and which ones don't. The Security Council may also at the recommendation stage wish for the less contentious applications to have en bloc recommendations, though each membership vote should be separate."

"And I'll have an iced tea with a hint of lemon"

Edited by Achkaerin, 19th January 2016 - 05:04 PM.
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OOC -Neuva Ardia left CTo 19th of August 2015 and haven't rejoined. We have an intruder...... GUARDS!!!!
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"Lakhzovia is happy to say that for the first time in months we are in agreement with Achkaerin. The current debate was suspended while the general assembly undertook the task of clarifying entry criteria specifically in order to ensure that there was a firm legal basis going forward. That has been achieved and we agree that the law having been determined must be applied.

If that causes Borland to call us biggots then let them. Anyone who lends an ear to terrorists is beyond help and to be slandered by such entities must surely count as a badge of honour, I know Lakhzovia would surely view it as such; the countries terrorists praise, they are the ones to watch out for."

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"With support seeming to say they wish to essentially reset the application process for everyone since the Borland debate began then I will ask if that motion can be put to a vote. Should the majority agree I will contact all the nations concerned informing them of the new process and aiding them in the process if necessary. We will however have to hear each separate otherwise we are already deviating from the process, it may also take some nations longer to acquire the three supporting signatures for their application.

Now do I have people willing to second the motion to restart the application process for the following nations, the Principality of Northern Borland, East Farthing, Arendesia, Acquitane and Tziyon. Of course now would be the time for anyone to bring up concerns over this proposal."
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Cheryl had been busy being picked up off the floor by her colleague Lisa Saunders, Mr Hokh's declaration had caught her completely by surprise to the point where, expecting another argument she'd ended up falling off her chair. It was simple enough though she was the motion's proposer so it was just a question of who else agreed with her, on what had been said there seemed to be a few which was a good thing.

"As the proposer of the motion in question, at least in origin, Achkaerin obviously supports the resetting of the application procedure for the nations stated." Cheryl said
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(OOC: Just as a point, does anyone oppose the other applications? The admissions procedure is only for controversial admissions like Borland)
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OOC- I think East Farthing and Arendesia are safe enough as I can't imagine anyone would oppose, Tziyon I don't know should be safe but it's hard to say whether that would be contentious or not.

The two that will warrant the actual debate are Aquitaine and Borland.
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OOC: This post has been retconned. Please see my note on the next page of the topic. Danke! ^_^


"Very well," Yuriko said as she finished a telephone call. "If you would excuse me, the Lord High Steward has requested consultation before Rokkenjima participates any further in these discussions."


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"Excuse me, but what?" Yuriko asked as Charles finished speaking. "You heard me correct, or did I stutter?" Charles asked rhetorically. "Look, these instructions come directly from Pyrena Castle, if you are incapable of acting upon them perhaps we should revisit your choice of career right now. For your convenience I've brought a portfolio of potential alternatives," Charles said as he placed a folder before her, "Perhaps working alongside the Emperor as a student teacher would be of interest to you?"

"That's not necessary," Yuriko replied as she sipped her tea, "I just need to know why I am presenting this position." "Because," Charles sighed, "the Empress has no interests in seeing a Borland admittance into the CTO be used as a pretext for war. The fact is there are many people within that community who have nothing to do with Borland's past, nor Barren's past. Regardless of all the planning which can go into a military operation there can never be a guarantee that civilian lives will not be lost. Thus, you are to request a guarantee that if Borland is admitted, and if they gain the necessary support and recognition, that they will not simply be bombed into oblivion following such an outcome."

"I may have a better way," Yuriko said as she stood to return to the Assembly. "Should that avenue not succeed, then we shall go before the General Assembly with the proposal you wish me to make."


After returning Yuriko dispatched a message to her Toshikawan counterpart. While knowing their policy tended to be more military oriented she was confident they would be willing to give the Rokkenjiman approach a fair chance.

"Rokkenjima requests a favour. Should Borland gain the necessary support to be admitted we would appreciate your assistance before the Security Council in securing conditions which would prevent military action against the self-proclaimed Principality. Without such conditions in place we may only succeed in giving Barren a new generation of martyrs, many of them innocent of crimes they never had a hand in. Perhaps the establishment of a peace-keeping force is in order? We promised a peaceful resolution to the Borland Question, the pursuit of due justice; the organs of international justice must have the opportunity to function and do their job in this situation without an unnecessary loss of life."
Edited by Beatrice, 24th January 2016 - 08:10 PM.
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Zuko received a message, a statement from the Toshikawa Security Council Representative to address a proposal to the General Assembly. "General Ran." Zuko spoke. "Sent me a letter in correspondence with the Rokkenjiman proposal to seek a peaceful solution. The Toshikawan Security Council, with suggestion from our Rokkenjiman counterparts, would like to put forward a measure that would enable the Security Council to establish conditions in which military action in the passing of the resolution, is not resorted to on any level to pursue the objective of the Rokkenjiman resolution. Toshikawa backs this proposal as security council member."
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OOC- Gad, B can one of you please clarify what the heck is going on here because it completely side tracks where the debate is up to which is seconding the approval to move the mentioned nations to the endorsement stage. Also did Zuko just say that out loud to the General Assembly?
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OOC: Quite simply, Rokkenjima is concerned that recognition/admittance to the CTO of Borland would 'greenlight' military action in some way against the Principality. Thus, a pre-emptive effort to ensure only peaceful measures are employed towards the resolution of the Borland Question. As Borland is up for consideration, the proposal is wholly valid.
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OOC As I see it we're getting side tracked. The initial Borland application went in before the new admissions thing was passed. That application was neither approved nor rejected so is kind of in limbo. The question put forward wasn't about letting them into CTO, it was should the discussion on their approval continue as it would under the pre-admission regulations or would members prefer the Principality to resubmit an application under the new rules. Once the status of Borland application has been determined then the debate on conditions etc can begin.
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OOC- I'm with Dave on this but will not ICly be a conditions debate- the Security Council may recommend conditions as it believes necessary we cannot have history repeat itself remember we got into this mess of two resolutions because Rokkenjima sought to challenge the Security Council recommendation rather than accept the conditions and simply move to vote on Borland's membership had we proceeded like that this would have been dealt much more swiftly.

I would therefore say the following on any Rokkenjiman proposal, it cannot occur during this debate because if it does it is another challenge to the Security Council recommendation (which is not yet ICly known) so it needs to be put after the present debate is concluded whether that be at the eligibility stage or the admission stage.

Now to the matter at hand we have a proposal to strike the two resolutions in the OP and proceed to put Borland through the new admissions procedure, the debate seems to be in favor of doing so, it has been moved and is in need of seconders once we have seconders we can move this on.
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OOC: Politics are rarely easy, convenient or 'non-messy', especially on an international level.

Nations are, and should, be free to coordinate with allies and partners on their concerns, that such concerns would be aired prior to the process taking place would speak to prudence and due cation. Such flexibility allows for a plethora of scenarios, although I will note it would have been Yuriko's intent for Toshikawa to present the matter to the Security Council when it forms its recommendation, not before the General Assembly itself. :P

That being said, we can consider that move retconned, not for political convenience, but due to the fact I'd like present IRN deployments to remain ambiguous. ^^
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NordicPeoples
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OOC- OK I'm going to be honest, I'm lost.



"We stand here going round and round, the question you've been asked is pretty straight forward yet we are managing to turn this into a debate that may not even be needed. The Borland situation needs to be resolved and their is a clear path that must be followed. The first step on that path is to determine the status of the application that was made almost two months ago. No formal refusal of that application was ever given so therefore technically it is still on the table, that being the case I am asking simply do you wish to pick that application back up or do we hand it back to Borland and inform them that they must now apply under the new procedure. At the moment I have people debating the actions against Borland should they be admitted or not, that debate should and will take place once we first determine the status of this application. At present I have the delegate from Achkaerin motioning for the application to be returned and the process restarted. Should I not get anyone seconding that then we shall assume people wish to allow the first application to stand, at that point I will begin opening the floor to debate that matter. Now can we please keep to the matter in question, does anyone wish to second the Achkaerin proposal?"
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CGJ
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Franz Kaufmann (1886-1944)
OOC: why aren't we just using the new admissions procedure that we spent so long arguing over? Just OOCly strike down these resolutions and hand the reigns to the SC.
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The Kingdom of Dartfordia (Factbook - Vignettes - News - Press Office)
Founding member of the Cross-Straits Treaty Alliance (CSTO), Commonwealth Treaty Organisation (CTO) and Congress of Albion (PAC).
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NordicPeoples
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OOC- That's the question that's been put forward, as no one ever rejected the old application its still technically there. IF people want it to be a case of re-setting that's what they need to say. Clearly the new admissions procedures will be used for everyone going forward, but the Borland one is in a state of limbo having been tabled before hand and then left.
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Ríocht de Uí Ceinnselaig
Kingdom of Ui Ceinnselaig
Is treise gliocas ná neart.

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The Odinist Republic of Åland
"Nio ädla dygder"
"Ni edle dyder"
"Nine Noble Virtues"
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Cool101jr
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Reaching for that great Nobility title in the Sky
Supreme Sovereignty seconds Achkaerin’s motion.
"Live for the Empire, or Die Alone"
All Hail Supreme Commandant Wesley, Emperor of Revana!

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Gadshack
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OOC: quit. this. OOC. Bullshite. I'm entirely ignoring this CTO Shite now.
Edited by Gadshack, 24th January 2016 - 08:26 PM.
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NordicPeoples
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"With a seconder I will move this to a vote." Birgit said more than happy to finally think this was going to solved. "All those in favour of having Borland restart the application process say Aye."

OOC- Voting open unti, Wednesday 10pm UK time
Edited by NordicPeoples, 24th January 2016 - 10:02 PM.
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Ríocht de Uí Ceinnselaig
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Is treise gliocas ná neart.

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"Nio ädla dygder"
"Ni edle dyder"
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Achkaerin
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"Achkaerin votes Aye."
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Beatrice
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Rokkenjima votes NAY.
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hobbes
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South Hills votes NAY
important message
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Luvonia
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+ Burn the Heretic. Kill the Mutant. Purge the Unclean. +
Luvonia votes aye
Edited by Luvonia, 26th January 2016 - 01:24 AM.
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Gadshack
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Toshi NAY
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CGJ
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Franz Kaufmann (1886-1944)
Dart votes for free condoms for all under-25s and also aye.
Posted ImageThe Most Honourable Marquess CGJ PC
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Coauthor of the Order's most viewed vignette series: Beaxander, as well as BeaXtra, 50 Shades of Chalk and Beaxotica.

Submitted Legislation

The Kingdom of Dartfordia (Factbook - Vignettes - News - Press Office)
Founding member of the Cross-Straits Treaty Alliance (CSTO), Commonwealth Treaty Organisation (CTO) and Congress of Albion (PAC).
Member of the Cultural Exchange Treaty Organisation (CETO).
Signatory to the Mundus Convention on Universal Rights (MCUR), Fair Seas Concordat (FSC) and Uppsala Convention.
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Tytor
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Tytor ABSTAINS.

(OOC: That, and I have no idea what we're voting on anyway. All I know is that it's controversial among Tytor's allies, and I see no need to pick sides.)
His Majesty Michael the First, by the Grace of God, King of Tytor and her Colonies, and Lord Protector of Floodwater

His Excellency Juvenal Massaquoi, President of Ubakasa, Protector of the Revolution, and Father of His People

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Non-partisan and proud of it

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Dijel
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The Federation of the Dijel abstains.

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CGJ
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Franz Kaufmann (1886-1944)
OOC: T, the vote is on whether to restart he Borland application process.
Posted ImageThe Most Honourable Marquess CGJ PC
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Coauthor of the Order's most viewed vignette series: Beaxander, as well as BeaXtra, 50 Shades of Chalk and Beaxotica.

Submitted Legislation

The Kingdom of Dartfordia (Factbook - Vignettes - News - Press Office)
Founding member of the Cross-Straits Treaty Alliance (CSTO), Commonwealth Treaty Organisation (CTO) and Congress of Albion (PAC).
Member of the Cultural Exchange Treaty Organisation (CETO).
Signatory to the Mundus Convention on Universal Rights (MCUR), Fair Seas Concordat (FSC) and Uppsala Convention.
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NordicPeoples
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OOC- I left this an extra day and its a 3-3 tie with two abstentions. As the UNP haven't used their vote we're going to vote "Aye"




"With a 4-3 vote and two abstentions it will now be necessary for Borland to resubmit their application."
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Ríocht de Uí Ceinnselaig
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Is treise gliocas ná neart.

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The Odinist Republic of Åland
"Nio ädla dygder"
"Ni edle dyder"
"Nine Noble Virtues"
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Achkaerin
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OOC- I think depending on Dave's input here that this thread would probably amount to the new application since the endorsements given have been played out as such in the various IC media.

Note: It definitely amounts to the three endorsements.
Edited by Achkaerin, 28th January 2016 - 10:32 PM.
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The Rt. Hon Achkaerin PC
Marquess, Lord Chief Justice,
TIO Cartographer, Sports Coordinator

National Roleplay
Achkaerin Chronicles (Vignettes)
Isanity (Vignettes)
Maestro, Muse and Expressionism (Specialist Vignette)
Encyclopedia Achkaerin
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Achkaerin News Service
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DaveIronside
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Bendix Landau (1880-1939)
Expect shiny formal application probably later today
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