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| First Charter | ||
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| Topic Started: 30th September 2013 - 07:50 AM (2,546 Views) | ||
| Avakael | 30th September 2013 - 07:50 AM Post #1 | |
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I'm gonna give this a go within a few days. The charter will outline the government positions in the region, how and when they are elected/appointed, some level of what powers they have, etc. Also, how the charter can be amended or replaced. | |
![]() ![]() Avakael of Klaus Devestatorie Archemperor of Unknown First Founder and Former Grand Chancellor of The Independent Order | ||
| Beatrice | 30th September 2013 - 07:09 PM Post #2 | |
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Sounds good! I can't wait to see how things shape up.
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| Avakael | 1st October 2013 - 12:29 AM Post #3 | |
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Won't actually institute it for a while- I'd like to give some time for other people to add some feedback. Welcome, by the way
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![]() ![]() Avakael of Klaus Devestatorie Archemperor of Unknown First Founder and Former Grand Chancellor of The Independent Order | ||
| Beatrice | 1st October 2013 - 02:10 AM Post #4 | |
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I look forward to contributing some feedback and thankies.
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| Matthew Vinage | 2nd October 2013 - 04:04 PM Post #5 | |
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Can I also post a draft for consideration, or are you going to write it up? | |
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| Illiaria | 3rd October 2013 - 12:05 AM Post #6 | |
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The Allied States
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I could also draft an outline, if you wish. I've participated in the drafting of Constitutions before. | |
| Avakael | 3rd October 2013 - 12:22 AM Post #7 | |
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My plan is to have a draft up within 18ish hours. It will be a very loose constitution; my reasoning being that a brutally perfect document is harder for newer players to understand and get involved underneath, and that any drama related to such a document is not a bad thing when managed with clear heads, but instead is an opportunity to allow others to contribute by providing solutions, and therefore feel properly associated to the region. We have many, many regions with a complete set of damn near perfect laws and new people, even reasonably experienced ones like me, enter the region, and can barely comprehend the system that the recruitment telegram said they could get involved in and would be really fun. Besides, I'm curious to see what solutions would be created. If anything super stupid happens then obviously it is time to step in. The other thing to note is that the executive government is not going to be the traditional model built only for function; we're going to have some interesting things in there to add to our regional character, such as a Ministry of Propaganda. To provide for the function of the constitution before we have the membership to fill it, we will simultaneously pass a provisional government law, that will allow us to leave non critical positions unfilled. Edited by Avakael, 3rd October 2013 - 12:24 AM.
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![]() ![]() Avakael of Klaus Devestatorie Archemperor of Unknown First Founder and Former Grand Chancellor of The Independent Order | ||
| Avakael | 3rd October 2013 - 02:42 AM Post #8 | |
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Okay! I did some typing. The First Charter of The Independent Order "x)" will be replaced with the appropriate # later. The same will apply with the dates for election; I had the 3rd of the month in my mind at general random but it's occurred to me that it's the 3rd of the month right now, so that won't work ![]() Section I: Establishment and Authority x) We, the enlightened population of The Independent Order, do establish this Charter as binding upon the entire population of The Independent Order, and as the supreme guiding document to which all other legislation must concur and conform to. x) The Charter and subsequent laws shall be held as law over all declared assets of The Independent Order, which are declared by standing order by the Grand Chancellor. x) This document may be amended with a 66% +1 vote from the Senate, and the signature of the Grand Chancellor. "This is the important document and it holds authority over xyz, and we can change it like this". This bit, at least, we'll keep foolproof. Section II: The Grand Chancellor x) The Grand Chancellor shall be the highest authority in The Independent Order. Go me! This clause could probably be better though. x) All laws and treaties must be formally signed by the Grand Chancellor to take effect. Basically a legislative veto. x) The Grand Chancellor shall be responsible for the out of context operation and safety of the declared assets of The Independent Order. x) The Grand Chancellor shall be responsible for the timely management of elections. Section III: The Premier x) The Premier shall be the head of the cabinet. x) The Premier is elected by the nations of The Independent Order on an election held on the xth of every month. To run for Premier, the candidate must be able to demonstrate that they have had a nation in The Independent Order for a period no less than forty-five (45) days. x) Upon election, the Premier shall appoint a deputy, who will act in his absence should the Premier declare a formal leave of absence, or should the Premier fail to log into the forum of The Independent Order for a period of seven (7) days. President/Prime Minister/Whatever. Section IV: The Cabinet x) The Cabinet shall be made up of the following portfolios; The Minister of Culture The Minister of Propaganda The Minister of Foreign Affairs The Minister of Integration The Minister of Events The Minister of Armed Forces The Minister of Roleplay The Minister of Imperial Affairs x) Cabinet positions are appointed by the Premier, at the start of the term, and then upon the resignation of a minister, or the automatic vacancy of a portfolio. x) Should a minister fail to log into the forums of The Independent Order for a period of seven (7) days without a declared leave of absence, their portfolio will be deemed vacant. x) Both the Premier and Deputy Premier will occupy a portfolio themselves. It should be up to the discretion of the Premier and the Cabinet to determine exactly what the individual portfolios have to do, but we can certainly nudge them in the right directions, either by advice or by example. Imperial Affairs will become clearer at a later date, or should Beatrice choose to explain. ![]() The monthly elections are deliberately short to ensure a reasonably quick turnaround should an entire government turn out to be a duck, and to ensure a new nation doesn't have to wait too long to wait to have a run at government themselves. Section V: The Senate x) The Senate is the supreme legislative body of The Independent Order. It has the authority to pass laws, statements, and treaties. Laws and treaties are simple enough; statements are when the Senate simply wishes to state an opinion on a certain matter, as the voice of the general population of The Independent Order, as opposed to the high government. I feel it could prove an interesting and useful foreign affairs mechanic (it's not just our government, it's our entire community). x) The Senate shall be made up of 2 members for every 50 nations in the region, with a minimum of 5 senators. The number of needed senators in the senate will be calculated upon the commencement of each election. I.E. when voting starts. x) Elections for the senate shall take place on the xth of every month. To run for the position of senator, the candidate must demonstrate that they have a nation in The Independent Order. x) The Senate shall vote for a speaker from their own ranks upon the commencement of the legislative term. Should the Senate be unable to determine a Speaker from the candidates available after a period of seven (7) days, the Grand Chancellor will appoint one from the nominated candidates in order to allow the Senate to function. I would also like to consider the idea that the Senate debates World Assembly proposals. Best way to make it happen would be to make the Speaker the regional WA delegate. Just an idea- would like to see what others think. Section VI: The Judiciary And here's where I'll need the assistance- we need it to be reasonably simple again. Section VII: Regional Membership This is the part that is really bugging me. I have no wish to require citizenship applications; you'll have all noticed that everyone who joined the forum was automatically masked as one. If someone walks in and is an utter dick, I will simply remove them, as per the requirement to manage the out of context operation and safety of the assets of The Independent Order. It's just another layer of bureaucracy during which a player could say "I can't be stuffed anymore" and walk away. Issues related to elections can be overcome easily by having open topic voting i.e. like in TNP. Having a nation in the region or an account on the forum means you are within the envelope of the assets of the region and thus there should be no legal issues there; the former is easy to escape but at the expense of voting rights, and the latter? Good luck escaping that ![]() The only thing that really bugs me is the potential to threaten international political independence; the fact that we could be flooded by members of another region that want to drag us into their sphere of influence. I would not have bothered even noting this concern but I have already been approached by 3 different Pacificans, and as a former member there I know exactly what they are capable of doing ![]() If it was clear that the region was clearly being dragged by a group of people instead of making the choice itself, I'd have to put my foot down somehow. This region must NOT become a battleground between two groups of larger regions who think that the sun shines out of their collective arses- sure the region gets active, but after a while the only activity left is from the people fighting over a region, and thus when the fight is decided one way or another, the region dies. The only idea I have is to create a proscribed list of regions where one cannot simultaneously be a member of and then vote or be in government here, but that feels heavy handed. tldr feedback me |
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![]() ![]() Avakael of Klaus Devestatorie Archemperor of Unknown First Founder and Former Grand Chancellor of The Independent Order | ||
| Illiaria | 3rd October 2013 - 03:29 AM Post #9 | |
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The First Charter of The Independent Order (Amended) "x)" will be replaced with the appropriate # later. The same will apply with the dates for election; I had the 3rd of the month in my mind at general random but it's occurred to me that it's the 3rd of the month right now, so that won't work Section I: Establishment and Authority x) We, the enlightened population of The Independent Order, do establish this Charter as binding upon the entire population of The Independent Order, and as the supreme guiding document to which all other legislation must concur and conform to. x) The Charter and subsequent laws shall be held as law over all declared assets of The Independent Order, which are declared by standing order by the Grand Chancellor. x) This document may be amended with a 66% +1 vote from the Senate, and the signature of the Grand Chancellor. "This is the important document and it holds authority over xyz, and we can change it like this". This bit, at least, we'll keep foolproof. Section II: The Grand Chancellor x) The Grand Chancellor shall be the highest authority in The Independent Order, they shall be elected by the people and thusly be held to a term of thirty (30) days. Go me! This clause could probably be better though. x) All laws and treaties must be formally signed by the Grand Chancellor to take effect. Basically a legislative veto. x) The Grand Chancellor shall be responsible for the out of context operation and safety of the declared assets of The Independent Order x) The Grand Chancellor shall be responsible for the timely management of elections. Personally, I recommend that this particular power be seconded over to the Minister of Imperial Affairs Section III: The Premier x) The Premier shall be the head of the cabinet. x) The Premier is publicly elected by the nations of The Independent Order, x) Upon election, the Premier shall appoint a deputy, who will act in his absence should the Premier declare a formal leave of absence, or should the Premier fail to log into the forum of The Independent Order for a period of seven (7) days. x) The Premier shall hold a term of thirty (30) days. President/Prime Minister/Whatever. Section IV: The Cabinet x) The Cabinet shall be made up of the following portfolios; The Minister of Culture The Minister of Propaganda The Minister of Foreign Affairs The Minister of Imperial Affairs x) Cabinet positions are appointed by the Premier, at the start of the term, and then upon the resignation of a minister, or the automatic vacancy of a portfolio. x) Should a minister fail to log into the forums of The Independent Order for a period of seven (7) days without a declared leave of absence, their portfolio will be deemed vacant. x) Both the Premier and Deputy Premier will occupy a portfolio themselves. It should be up to the discretion of the Premier and the Cabinet to determine exactly what the individual portfolios have to do, but we can certainly nudge them in the right directions, either by advice or by example. Imperial Affairs will become clearer at a later date, or should Beatrice choose to explain. The monthly elections are deliberately short to ensure a reasonably quick turnaround should an entire government turn out to be a duck, and to ensure a new nation doesn't have to wait too long to wait to have a run at government themselves. Section V: The Senate x) The Senate is the supreme legislative body of The Independent Order. It has the authority to pass laws, statements, treaties, and declare war. Laws and treaties are simple enough; statements are when the Senate simply wishes to state an opinion on a certain matter, as the voice of the general population of The Independent Order, as opposed to the high government. I feel it could prove an interesting and useful foreign affairs mechanic (it's not just our government, it's our entire community). x) The Senate shall be made up of 2 members for every 50 nations in the region, with a minimum of 5 senators. The number of needed senators in the senate will be calculated upon the commencement of each election. I.E. when voting starts. x) The members of The Senate shall x) The Senate shall vote for a speaker from their own ranks upon the commencement of the legislative term. Should the Senate be unable to determine a Speaker from the candidates available after a period of seven (7) days, the Grand Chancellor will appoint one from the nominated candidates in order to allow the Senate to function. I would also like to consider the idea that the Senate debates World Assembly proposals. Best way to make it happen would be to make the Speaker the regional WA delegate. Just an idea- would like to see what others think. Section VI: The Judiciary x) The Judiciary Branch, hereby dubbed the High Court, is thus established to check the Constitutionality of Laws, and settle disputes among the member states of the Order. x) The High Court thus holds the ability to eject and ban member states of the Order, pending a trial of their peers. x) The High Court shall be headed by a Supreme Justice, elected by the Senate, who shall serve a term of forty-five (45) days. x) The Grand Chancellor and Premier shall both appoint one (1) Justice serve alongside the Supreme Justice, who both serve terms of forty-five (45) days. Basically, the High Court holds the ability to strike down unjust laws, and settle disputes amongst the members of the Order. In addition, the Supreme Justice is an elected member of the populace, effectively giving the people the power to voice their opinion not only through the Senate, but the High Court as well. Section VII: Regional Membership This is the part that is really bugging me. I have no wish to require citizenship applications; you'll have all noticed that everyone who joined the forum was automatically masked as one. If someone walks in and is an utter dick, I will simply remove them, as per the requirement to manage the out of context operation and safety of the assets of The Independent Order. It's just another layer of bureaucracy during which a player could say "I can't be stuffed anymore" and walk away. Issues related to elections can be overcome easily by having open topic voting i.e. like in TNP. Having a nation in the region or an account on the forum means you are within the envelope of the assets of the region and thus there should be no legal issues there; the former is easy to escape but at the expense of voting rights, and the latter? Good luck escaping that ![]() The only thing that really bugs me is the potential to threaten international political independence; the fact that we could be flooded by members of another region that want to drag us into their sphere of influence. I would not have bothered even noting this concern but I have already been approached by 3 different Pacificans, and as a former member there I know exactly what they are capable of doing ![]() If it was clear that the region was clearly being dragged by a group of people instead of making the choice itself, I'd have to put my foot down somehow. This region must NOT become a battleground between two groups of larger regions who think that the sun shines out of their collective arses- sure the region gets active, but after a while the only activity left is from the people fighting over a region, and thus when the fight is decided one way or another, the region dies. The only idea I have is to create a proscribed list of regions where one cannot simultaneously be a member of and then vote or be in government here, but that feels heavy handed |
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| Avakael | 3rd October 2013 - 04:02 AM Post #10 | |
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I personally find it's easier to remember the specific date of a month than a specific number of days. If it changes by 1 or 2 days each month, that's not a huge issue. For month long senate terms, see the same reasoning for month long Premier terms. Management of elections should not be ceded to someone who is appointed by an elected official, who will quite likely come from a political party- it's also worth noting that "Imperial Affairs" is actually meant in a foreign affairs manner. Once again, I'll let Beatrice explain. I understand the reasoning behind merging events and roleplay into culture ("culture" is huge and I prefer to split certain larger things off), but integration is important enough to require its own department. I have no idea where you got the idea of merging the armed forces into the foreign affairs department. The judiciary seems reasonable. |
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![]() ![]() Avakael of Klaus Devestatorie Archemperor of Unknown First Founder and Former Grand Chancellor of The Independent Order | ||
| Illiaria | 3rd October 2013 - 04:23 AM Post #11 | |
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My idea is to either A) Create an entirely separate position selected by the Grand Chancellor to be the the commander of the Armed Forces, or B) Merge it with foreign affairs. Which would be hilarious. | |
| Avakael | 3rd October 2013 - 04:29 AM Post #12 | |
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Not so much that it'd be hilarious (it'd actually work really well if the FA guy knew what he was doing), as the fact that it'd be a colossal workload. Thus, I'd favor A over B. | |
![]() ![]() Avakael of Klaus Devestatorie Archemperor of Unknown First Founder and Former Grand Chancellor of The Independent Order | ||
| Illiaria | 3rd October 2013 - 06:01 AM Post #13 | |
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I'll work on creating a separate article for a new position created under the Charter. | |
| Matthew Vinage | 3rd October 2013 - 04:25 PM Post #14 | |
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Personally, I think the Cabinet should be: The Minister of Culture The Minister of Propaganda The Minister of Foreign Affairs The Minister of the Interior (responsible for handling recruitment, integration and the like) The Minister of War (a.k.a. Minister/Commander of the Armed Forces) The Minister of Imperial Affairs Also, going a bit off-topic, do you think we should become a signatory of the Arnhelm Declaration of Recruitment Standards? Edited by Matthew Vinage, 3rd October 2013 - 04:30 PM.
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Join the Orderian Progressive Coalition! Factbook of the Grand Republic of Bykrestan Curriculum Vitae
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| Beatrice | 3rd October 2013 - 09:16 PM Post #15 | |
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Things are looking great so far, a sound foundation to be sure. I'll have to read over it again to see if I notice anything but for now, including some of the additions noted by others, things look good to me. I shall choose to explain. ![]() In the spoiler below you will find a modified text of Enlightened Imperialism, a doctrine I had pursued earlier and put forward to Bruthannia for consideration. I still consider it a rough draft, though that's the case with many of my writings, so please excuse any errors. Spoiler: click to toggle I've usually been a background player, only briefly considering founding/building a region, so the viewpoint behind this Doctrine may discount some realities that players who've actually been in the spotlight may notice. I still believe the spirit and idea behind Enlightened Imperialism can work and would be an interesting venture. A disdain for acquiring 'trophy regions' is obvious, though that is largely based on my opinions concerning that practice. Edited by Beatrice, 3rd October 2013 - 09:49 PM.
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| Avakael | 4th October 2013 - 12:39 AM Post #16 | |
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We can worry about Arnhelm later, tbh. I'm certainly not planning to recruit from any UCRs, not even Iwaku, because I actually like those guys. ![]() Matthew Vinage's cabinet seems the most solid. That said, it's worth noting that we won't need Interior to handle recruitment- I plan to do stamps 100%. Integration is going to be the important task there. |
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![]() ![]() Avakael of Klaus Devestatorie Archemperor of Unknown First Founder and Former Grand Chancellor of The Independent Order | ||
| Avakael | 4th October 2013 - 12:42 AM Post #17 | |
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Also still looking for feedback on my ramble over citizenship and what to do there, and on whether or not the Senate should do formal debates on WA proposals. | |
![]() ![]() Avakael of Klaus Devestatorie Archemperor of Unknown First Founder and Former Grand Chancellor of The Independent Order | ||
| Beatrice | 4th October 2013 - 02:18 AM Post #18 | |
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People can lie about what their intentions concerning other regions are, even if they pledge adherence to regional policy and laws they can still be serving the interests of another region. It's a tricky situation these days with players involving themselves in multiple regions. One could undertake actions here while, at first seeming untied to any grander scheme, could later prove to play into the roles of a foreign power. Thus, any way we look at the situation there's always room for manipulation and deceit. I feel the best solution is a strong figurehead who can veto any legislation or action undertaken by lower bodies of government, but have such a veto tied to a consensus-based organ which could concur (or disagree) with the figurehead. I use the term 'figurehead' loosely here; it could be the Premier, or it could be the Grand Chancellor, but right now that's the best I have at the moment. |
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| Avakael | 4th October 2013 - 03:29 AM Post #19 | |
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The current draft gives the ability for the Grand Chancellor to effectively veto legislation, by refusing to sign it. We could introduce an override. | |
![]() ![]() Avakael of Klaus Devestatorie Archemperor of Unknown First Founder and Former Grand Chancellor of The Independent Order | ||
| Beatrice | 5th October 2013 - 01:34 AM Post #20 | |
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Ah, I thought I might have overlooked something! An override would be nice to make people feel comfortable. If I could sum up my political beliefs regarding the game I've always been a fan of a strong monarchy, so take that for what you wish. Though as you've seen my writings you already largely know where I stand on things I guess.
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| Matthew Vinage | 5th October 2013 - 08:37 AM Post #21 | |
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An override seems like a good idea - something along the lines of a Citizens' Referendum? And go ahead (with the implementation of the Charter). Edited by Matthew Vinage, 5th October 2013 - 08:38 AM.
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| Avakael | 5th October 2013 - 10:34 AM Post #22 | |
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At the LAN party reading this but I have a different idea; We introduce two different levels of a legislative "pass". 50%+1 is a normal pass that requires the signature of the Grand Chancellor to become law 75%+1 (filler figure for now- simply have this figure as whatever higher than normal number would be required to override a "veto") is a "super" pass that ignores the requirement of the Grand Chancellor's signature. As a result, we can probably avoid a lot of bouncing. Edited by Avakael, 5th October 2013 - 10:35 AM.
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![]() ![]() Avakael of Klaus Devestatorie Archemperor of Unknown First Founder and Former Grand Chancellor of The Independent Order | ||
| adamsneeka | 5th October 2013 - 02:07 PM Post #23 | |
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Hi All, I would like to show my support for Matthew Vinages's Cabinet, Ministry of the interior should control "Active" Recruitment ie searching for nations that may align well with our region and pursue their membership. Also I support the changes made by Illaria in sections I, II and III. Also the extension of senate Terms of sixty days As for the Judiciary, Firstly it Should exist Independently of the government and be voted for directly by the nations of the region for a term of 10 weeks with term ends staggered so as to limit the ability of any one group of nations to quickly populate the judiciary with members closer to their own ideologies. Whilst still allowing change to the judiciary inline with the growth and changes within the nation I would suggest 5 members with the initial voting allowing the five nations with the highest votes to assume the initial positions. It would begin by allowing 2 weeks of time for the judiciary to put together a fair and equitable system of processes for the hearing of cases and enforcement of penalties which can then be voted on by the senate. After which two week staggered voting begins with the elected nation with the lowest votes Being the first nation up for re-election, second lowest votes next and so on until the the largest vote getter which would leave the first position up for election two weeks later , 10 weeks after that positions election. To avoid everyone's need to vote every two weeks positions will be automatically re-elected unless in the 2 weeks prior to that positions vote 50% +1 vote of the population call for the election of another member Wow that sounds more complicated than what I thought it would I might Make up a Chart to explain it in a simpler fashion Edit - Find file attached Adam Callaghan Supreme Commander Armed Rep. of Kazarovia Edited by adamsneeka, 5th October 2013 - 02:46 PM.
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| Beatrice | 5th October 2013 - 09:44 PM Post #24 | |
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adamsneeka's judiciary proposals have my support. I do like the staggering of the votes as well as the emphasis on an independent judiciary. I would also suggest for consideration a waiting period before a member of another branch of government is allowed to be considered for a position in the judiciary and, more importantly, a ban on political party members from even being considered. We can see the real-life complications conservative and liberal judges cause on the US Supreme Court. We don't need party interests considered before the region and its people. |
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| Avakael | 7th October 2013 - 02:06 AM Post #25 | |
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I'd like to emphasise that even within the judicial area, we want this to be as simple as possible... No more than half a dozen clauses. | |
![]() ![]() Avakael of Klaus Devestatorie Archemperor of Unknown First Founder and Former Grand Chancellor of The Independent Order | ||
| Beatrice | 7th October 2013 - 07:22 PM Post #26 | |
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I'll take a look at the judicial proposals and see if I can summarize it later tonight/tomorrow unless I'm beaten to it. | |
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| Beatrice | 8th October 2013 - 10:46 PM Post #27 | |
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Apologies for the double post beforehand! I'm at a friends house right now but I'll be taking a crack at summarizing the judicial proposals (as stated thus far) once I get home. It'll be a change of pace from my usually long-winded writings (Bruthannia knows what I mean there :P) but I'm sure I can produce something which holds the spirit of the proposal while keeping things simple and concise.
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| ACL | 9th October 2013 - 12:00 AM Post #28 | |
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How much say will the member nations have in the formation of this regional government you propose? As has been brought up before, I feel an alliance of nations would be the best solution. A regional confederacy of sorts might work as well for our independent image. I'm just concerned and curious, I don't mean to bother.
Edited by ACL, 9th October 2013 - 12:03 AM.
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| Avakael | 9th October 2013 - 12:43 AM Post #29 | |
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Member nations will directly elect the legislative, and the head of the executive. It also should be pretty easy to actually run for government yourself- which we are assisting as best we can via simplifying the charter. | |
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| ACL | 9th October 2013 - 01:41 AM Post #30 | |
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How much authority will this governing body have over us? I'm sorry if I am making things tedious but it is vital for me to know the structure of this. The ACL isn't big on representative democracy and we are especially against republics. Only dictatorships and elite rulers could be worse. | |
| ACL | 9th October 2013 - 01:41 AM Post #31 | |
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By us, I mean the member nations | |
| Avakael | 9th October 2013 - 02:01 AM Post #32 | |
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Under no circumstances will the charter have the power to affect your individual nationstates.net nation, or the way you wish to run them. Even if we wanted to force nations to have their own governments function in a certain way, we would have no tools to enforce it beyond ejecting and banning regions from the region, which is extraordinarily heavy handed. Laws that are made will almost all be around what nations are or aren't allowed to do as they work within the government system. There will likely be a criminal code created very soon after the charter, but such a code will have no affect on a national roleplay level. Edited by Avakael, 9th October 2013 - 02:01 AM.
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![]() ![]() Avakael of Klaus Devestatorie Archemperor of Unknown First Founder and Former Grand Chancellor of The Independent Order | ||
| ACL | 9th October 2013 - 02:09 AM Post #33 | |
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Thank you for the clarification. | |
| Beatrice | 9th October 2013 - 02:47 AM Post #34 | |
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It's been a long day and I'm tired so this may not be my best writing, but it does serve to organize the ideas presented and provides a basis from which to go from. So don't hold any shoddy writing against me this time, I'm in need of sleep soon.
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| Avakael | 9th October 2013 - 03:05 AM Post #35 | |
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Nothing against you on the writing, but... where on earth are we going to find 5 capable justices that haven't been in government for the previous 2 terms and who aren't members of a political party?
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![]() ![]() Avakael of Klaus Devestatorie Archemperor of Unknown First Founder and Former Grand Chancellor of The Independent Order | ||
| Beatrice | 9th October 2013 - 03:11 AM Post #36 | |
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Just ideas I was throwing out there, mostly. I figured that justices involved with political parties could, likely, put party interests into play in court proceedings which could result in decisions being issued which may benefit their party. Justices should be impartial, independent and unbiased in their rulings. Thus, in my view, those interested in a judicial path in regional affairs would have a choice to make: involvement in the political operations of the region (and party membership) or a dedication to the impartial, independent judiciary. I realize the impracticalities this would likely lead to in the future now that I think about it (sleep deprived here!) and more than likely my ideas concerning the judiciary are more idealistic than practical. |
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| Avakael | 9th October 2013 - 05:10 AM Post #37 | |
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The problem with appointed justices is the need to keep them separate from the rest of the system. That means they can't be spending time in the executive helping to run the region- merely instead serve as a dedicated arbitrator. Maybe we should appoint arbitrators on a case by case basis and only have them separated from the rest of the government during that time, so we don't have the issue of losing people who could help elsewhere? | |
![]() ![]() Avakael of Klaus Devestatorie Archemperor of Unknown First Founder and Former Grand Chancellor of The Independent Order | ||
| Beatrice | 10th October 2013 - 12:32 AM Post #38 | |
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That all sounds good to me. A good, practical sounding idea that keeps the spirit of judicial independence kicking.
Edited by Beatrice, 10th October 2013 - 12:33 AM.
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| Avakael | 11th October 2013 - 02:25 AM Post #39 | |
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Better try and update this document before the discussion dies
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| Avakael | 13th October 2013 - 07:12 AM Post #40 | |
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Redrafting. The First Charter of The Independent Order Section I: Establishment and Authority x) We, the enlightened population of The Independent Order, do establish this Charter as binding upon the entire population of The Independent Order, and as the supreme guiding document to which all other legislation must concur and conform to. x) The Charter and subsequent laws shall be held as law over all declared assets of The Independent Order, which are declared by standing order by the Grand Chancellor. x) This document may be amended with a 66% +1 vote from the Senate, and the signature of the Grand Chancellor. x) In the event that this document proves inadequate or incapable of solving a significant issue, the Grand Chancellor will openly consult the population of the region to determine a common sense based solution that puts the needs of the region first. Section II: The Grand Chancellor x) The Grand Chancellor shall be the highest authority in The Independent Order. x) All laws and treaties passed by the Senate must be formally signed by the Grand Chancellor to take effect. x) The Grand Chancellor shall be responsible for the out of context operation and safety of the declared assets of The Independent Order. x) The Grand Chancellor shall be responsible for the timely management of elections. x) The Grand Chancellor may not simultaneously be a Senator, Premier, Arbiter or Minister. Section III: The Premier x) The Premier shall be the head of the cabinet. x) The Premier is elected by the nations of The Independent Order on an election held on the xth of every month. To run for Premier, the candidate must be able to demonstrate that they have had a nation in The Independent Order for a period no less than forty-five (45) days. x) Upon election, the Premier shall appoint a deputy, who will act in his absence should the Premier declare a formal leave of absence, or should the Premier fail to log into the forum of The Independent Order for a period of seven (7) days. Section IV: The Cabinet x) The Cabinet shall be made up of the following portfolios; The Minister of Culture The Minister of Truth The Minister of Foreign Affairs The Minister of Integration The Minister of Armed Forces The Minister of Imperial Affairs x) Cabinet positions are appointed by the Premier, at the start of the term, and then upon the resignation of a minister, or the automatic vacancy of a portfolio. x) Should a minister fail to log into the forums of The Independent Order for a period of seven (7) days without a declared leave of absence, their portfolio will be deemed vacant. x) Both the Premier and Deputy Premier will occupy a portfolio themselves. Section V: The Senate x) The Senate is the supreme legislative body of The Independent Order. It has the authority to pass laws, statements, and treaties. x) The Senate shall be made up of 2 members for every 50 nations in the region, with a minimum of 5 senators. The number of needed senators in the senate will be calculated upon the commencement of each election. x) Elections for the Senate shall take place on the xth of every month. To run for the position of Senator, the candidate must demonstrate that they have a nation in The Independent Order. x) The Senate shall vote for a speaker from their own ranks upon the commencement of the legislative term. Should the Senate be unable to determine a Speaker from the candidates available after a period of seven (7) days, the Grand Chancellor will appoint one from the nominated candidates in order to allow the Senate to function. x) Any proposed law, statement or treaty in the Senate will be debated for no more than seven (7) days, upon which time the item will be voted upon for two (2) days. Any senator may move to vote to shorten the debate time should the seven (7) day period appear to be unnecessary. x) Any law, statement or treaty in the Senate will be considered passed should it achieve fifty one (51) percent or more votes in favor of the number of votes possible in the Senate at that time. x) Any law or treaty that achieves seventy five (75) percent or more votes in favor of the number of votes possible in the Senate at that time will automatically bypass the requirement for the Grand Chancellor to sign the law or treaty. Section VI: The Judiciary x) The Judiciary shall be the arm of justice and dispute resolution within The Independent Order. x) The Judiciary will hear cases of criminal and civil prosecution, as well as provide advice on the constitutional legality of any matter brought before it. x) The Senate is required to create a criminal code, in order to define what acts are criminal and civil offenses. x) Upon the submission of a case to the Judiciary, the Grand Chancellor will appoint an arbiter to oversee the case. The arbiter will serve until the case has reached a conclusion, or until the arbiter resigns. x) Should an arbiter resign and their case yet to be concluded, the Grand Chancellor will appoint a new arbiter to oversee the case. x) Those serving as arbiters may not simultaneously be a senator, a minister, or a premier. x) The senate may challenge the Grand Chancellor's choice of arbiter, and may successfully overrule a choice with a vote of 75%+1 in favor of the number of votes possible in the senate at that time, requiring the Grand Chancellor to appoint a new arbiter. Section VII: Regional Membership x) All nations that reside within the NationStates region of The Independent Order may consider themselves members of the region. x) Nations may be required to possess a forum account to vote in elections or be a Grand Chancellor, Premier, Arbiter, Senator or Minister. x) Nations that are in the region as diplomats from other regions may not vote in elections or be a Grand Chancellor, Premier, Senator or Minister. --- In addition, we are still looking for input on the following;
Edited by Avakael, 16th October 2013 - 12:21 PM.
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| Matthew Vinage | 13th October 2013 - 01:47 PM Post #41 | |
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1) The amended Charter looks OK to me. 2) I'm not too keen on the idea of the Senate debating WA proposals. I'd rather have a separate sub-forum where the Delegate posts the proposals and the citizens vote on what the Delegate's decision should be via a poll. 3) As for the debate on citizenship, what you suggest seems fine. Yes, there may be one or two security issues, but I'm sure that the benefits will outweigh the downsides. |
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| Avakael | 13th October 2013 - 01:56 PM Post #42 | |
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In terms of the WA I'm mostly just concerned about the idea of the senate eventually completely running out of things to debate. There's always WA proposals to debate, so there would always be something for the senate to discuss. But I guess that'd be a while down the line if we had a senate that was actually proactive at attempting to create some kind of legal system. | |
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| CGJ | 14th October 2013 - 01:16 PM Post #43 | |
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May I just ask, being new to the game and all, shouldn't regional governments operate more as a supranational organisation (like the EU or Commonwealth of Nations), as opposed to a federal government? By this I mean, 1) There would be no 'Head of State' or 'Head of Government', there is a Secretary-General who would be the Grand Chancellor – the Grand Chancellor would not have supreme authority, but may veto legislation if it has less than 2/3 support of the Senate 2) Each member-state would send one representative to the Senate, which would ultimately vote on the organisation's official positioning on matters, as well as appointing members of the Commission. Official WA proposals would be debated and whatever the majority agree upon will be what the regional organisation expects all members to vote for 3) The Commission would consist of the 'Ministers' (but would be called 'Commissioners'), elected individually by the Senate. It would be at these elections Senators would decide whether we need the position or not; as opposed to etching it into the Charter. |
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| Avakael | 14th October 2013 - 11:33 PM Post #44 | |
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While Nation Roleplay will be occurring on a "nation" level, the Regional Government will be on a "persona" level. The vast, vast majority of gameplay regions prefer Federal Government models- we're going with it because we know they work. | |
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| CGJ | 15th October 2013 - 12:51 AM Post #45 | |
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I would personally prefer a regional organisation, I understand that this is how it's done. In saying that, do wish to make these points: 1) The Senate should be allowed to discuss and vote upon WA issues 2) If the Grand Chancellor rejects a bill once, then with 2/3 of the Senate the bill should bypass the GC 3) 'Minister for Propaganda' should be renamed 'Minister of Information and Public Enlightenment.' |
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| Avakael | 15th October 2013 - 01:28 AM Post #46 | |
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1) For the senate to do that, we need to be able to enforce it. That means we'd need to put the Speaker as WA delegate. I thought it wasn't a bad idea myself, but it's contested. 2) We actually already have a mechanism for that in the current document- if the vote is 3/4 in support, the bill bypasses the need for Grand Chancellor approval at all. 3) That's a bit of a mouthful.
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| Beatrice | 15th October 2013 - 01:47 AM Post #47 | |
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Why not just call it what it is: Ministry of Truth, or Minitrue for simplicity's sake.
Edited by Beatrice, 15th October 2013 - 01:48 AM.
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| CGJ | 15th October 2013 - 02:19 AM Post #48 | |
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1) If supported, having the Speaker as a WA Delegate, but also acting as a party whip for the member states 2) Probably should of read the redraft properly... 3 – Beatrice) Minitrue would work, although we're looking at the Minister of Truth, not the Ministry (I love it though). Minister of Truth or Minister for Information would work, I think. |
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| Avakael | 15th October 2013 - 02:30 AM Post #49 | |
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Ministry of Truth is pretty good.
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| Avakael | 15th October 2013 - 02:35 AM Post #50 | |
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Considering the scale of the roleplay we are undertaking, it may be prudent to actually have a Minister of Roleplay to manage it. It's not going to be a small job. | |
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| Bechstein | 15th October 2013 - 02:52 PM Post #51 | |
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I agree. | |
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| Beatrice | 15th October 2013 - 05:03 PM Post #52 | |
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I'm also in agreement for the Minister of Roleplay.
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| Matthew Vinage | 15th October 2013 - 05:17 PM Post #53 | |
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I'm in favour of a Minister of Roleplay. Also, "Minister of Truth" - I like it. It sounds sinister.
Edited by Matthew Vinage, 15th October 2013 - 05:17 PM.
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| Bechstein | 15th October 2013 - 08:09 PM Post #54 | |
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Minister of Truth...sinister...yes. | |
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| Avakael | 16th October 2013 - 12:25 PM Post #55 | |
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I think this just about covers it. I was going to include a Minister of Roleplay- then I realized we'd be changing the roleplay game master every month and how much of an absolute clusterfuck that could turn out to be. Better to separate our government and our nation roleplay entirely. If there's anything, anything at all wrong with this document; spelling errors, grammatical inconsistencies, the most minor of issues you can think of at all, now is the time. I want to put this to a vote so we can get things underway as soon as possible.
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| Beatrice | 16th October 2013 - 01:58 PM Post #56 | |
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Apart from that I haven't noticed anything. Has a day for the elections been selected yet, or?
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| Avakael | 16th October 2013 - 02:08 PM Post #57 | |
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I figure I'll set the election to be 3 days after the vote on the charter itself finishes, which in turn I will give 2 or 3 days. | |
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| Bechstein | 16th October 2013 - 03:19 PM Post #58 | |
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I might be confused due to my great imbecility, but wasn't there supposed to be a Roleplay-related minister?
Edited by Bechstein, 16th October 2013 - 03:19 PM.
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| Avakael | 16th October 2013 - 11:41 PM Post #59 | |
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![]() ![]() Avakael of Klaus Devestatorie Archemperor of Unknown First Founder and Former Grand Chancellor of The Independent Order | ||
| CGJ | 17th October 2013 - 01:29 AM Post #60 | |
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Oh no, here comes the civil service... | |
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| Beatrice | 17th October 2013 - 02:02 AM Post #61 | |
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Why you say that like it's a bad thing.
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| Narrahivoo | 17th October 2013 - 02:22 AM Post #62 | |
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I have the same feelings as Datfordia and Littlebrook. I feel like it should be more of an international organization like Warsaw or NATO. Also, I feel even if we do keep this overall regional government set up, it shouldn't be a "Federal " style. Federal implies the governing (in this case, regional) body has the power, and gives the states/provinces/member nations certain powers. It might be I. The best interests of the member nations if it was set up in a more Confederal style. This region promises independence and a safe place for nations of all stripes to simply live out there days the way they wish with the support of the region in self defense, diplomacy, role play, and a sense of community. I hope I'm not speaking out of place. I just want the voice of Narrahivoo, as a member nation to be heard. | |
| Avakael | 17th October 2013 - 02:54 AM Post #63 | |
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What if we simply reworded the charter to keep it functioning the same way it would now, but so we are seen to participate as nations and not individuals? We'd keep the effectiveness of the style of government while embracing the idea that we are nations as part of a greater institution. I have a slightly different belief on getting ones ideas heard; run for government. Seriously, run just for government. In only a handful of regions is it actually difficult to get yourself into a senate position and that's simply because they have a comparatively small legislative body for the size of their active membership. At this point, we're going to have 5 senators, but we honestly might struggle to find that many people willing to put their hand up, and those who don't get in will certainly be considered for appointment to the executive. All nations have the equal right to vote- but it is important that we reward those who make the effort to actually seek to serve and really put in the hard yards to make the region a better place. Otherwise, nobody bothers. To vote, you have to bother to make a forum account. To directly submit legislation to the senate, you have to nominate to be a senator and implicitly promise to be around for everyone elses proposals. I hope that isn't too much to ask. Edited by Avakael, 17th October 2013 - 02:55 AM.
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| Bechstein | 17th October 2013 - 06:02 AM Post #64 | |
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Not at all. In my opinion. I am currently skimming through the diverse positions, checking to see which one is most adequate for my abilities, or lack thereof. |
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| Avakael | 17th October 2013 - 06:21 AM Post #65 | |
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I will be providing guidance where necessary for people who have no idea what they're doing with a new position, and there are other experienced people present as well. Don't worry
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![]() ![]() Avakael of Klaus Devestatorie Archemperor of Unknown First Founder and Former Grand Chancellor of The Independent Order | ||
| Bechstein | 17th October 2013 - 08:54 AM Post #66 | |
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Perfect. What is the position of Premier all about? Is the office's only function to appoint Ministers? | |
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| Bechstein | 17th October 2013 - 08:54 AM Post #67 | |
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And by the way, could a nation run for Premier, only for this election, where the region itself has not been around for 45 days? | |
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| Avakael | 17th October 2013 - 10:41 PM Post #68 | |
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I think we'll quietly wave that provision for this election, yes.
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| Bechstein | 18th October 2013 - 06:59 AM Post #69 | |
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Interesting. | |
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| Avakael | 18th October 2013 - 10:09 AM Post #70 | |
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It's a bit of a mess, really. Long term it's probably appropriate to have it there. Short term it technically means nobody here is eligible. I think we can get away with just ignoring it until it means something. Anyone who actually tries to invoke it for something is really only stirring up trouble. Finally, because it's been raised multiple times; Do we want this document worded so that individuals are participating in the regional government, or so that nations are participating in the regional government? The norm is for individuals, and it's what the vast, vast majority of governments in this game do- but to people without that influence, it's logical to roll with nations. Once we have this nailed down, I'll finalize the document, and put it to a vote. |
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| Bechstein | 18th October 2013 - 12:11 PM Post #71 | |
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In my opinion, it should be individuals. Because nations have individuals as well at their lead. So it's all based around individuals. | |
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| Beatrice | 18th October 2013 - 06:55 PM Post #72 | |
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I'm with Bechstein, individuals would be better. A compromise for those who desire the nations option, if I may suggest, is to perhaps view the members of regional government as representatives from their nations. Thus individuality, and nationality, can exist within the same structure and everyone comes away happy. | |
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| Bechstein | 18th October 2013 - 08:50 PM Post #73 | |
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I agree with the above compromise. I cannot wait for the Charter to be underway. | |
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| Venturas | 19th October 2013 - 07:32 PM Post #74 | |
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Very interesting. If I may, one of the reasons most regions have a citizenship application process is that it allows people to distinguish between randoms who have just joined the forum for a look, displomats, and people who actually have a nation in the region. Thus the three groups usually have distinct masking. I do however understand the desire to avoid the beaurocracy, and I've seen it done in regions before. If security is your only concern then I don't feel this makes the region any less secure, though the concerns regarding elections are valid. Can all people with a forum account vote in these? |
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| Avakael | 19th October 2013 - 11:44 PM Post #75 | |
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The simple way to avoid election fraud like that is to require people to publicly post their votes in a topic, instead of using the inbuilt poll system, with a form like this;
(the final thing being something else I should add) Then I can go comb through every vote, check all the IPs, etc, declare any invalid or illegal votes, and then post the final result. I already go through and check IP addresses on anyone who applies for a spot on the map, etc. We should be fine. Diplomats generally declare themselves somewhere upon arrival. I'm not worried about those. |
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| CGJ | 20th October 2013 - 08:27 PM Post #76 | |
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Instead of casting their votes publicly, could you offer the chance to cast the vote privately by PM? | |
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| Griiizy | 20th October 2013 - 11:05 PM Post #77 | |
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2nd post woo! Though I enjoyed what I read within the last few pages and I support this all the way!
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| Storm Thurmond | 21st October 2013 - 12:06 AM Post #78 | |
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Well i think we should publicly cast their votes that way we know who they really are i support this all the way | |
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-Storm Thurmond 1st Speaker Of The Senate "Russia you take out the IA move the R to the back and bam you got USSR..Mind Blown" "You know Voltaire if you take out the AI and send the RE to the front what do you get... BAM REVOLT LOGIC SON" Emperor of Xnok Proud Member of the PDA Storm Thurmond | ||
| Avakael | 21st October 2013 - 12:37 AM Post #79 | |
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Never be afraid of voting the way you want to vote. That's how democracy gets undermined. |
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| Storm Thurmond | 21st October 2013 - 01:28 AM Post #80 | |
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Indeed Grand Chancellor i could not agree with you more | |
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-Storm Thurmond 1st Speaker Of The Senate "Russia you take out the IA move the R to the back and bam you got USSR..Mind Blown" "You know Voltaire if you take out the AI and send the RE to the front what do you get... BAM REVOLT LOGIC SON" Emperor of Xnok Proud Member of the PDA Storm Thurmond | ||
| CGJ | 21st October 2013 - 02:02 AM Post #81 | |
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I personally would cast my vote publicly, but there may be some who would prefer to vote by secret ballot. This may be because they feel like they are being intimidated or just down to personal preference. Perhaps so long as they publicly declare that they did so, secret ballot should be allowed. |
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| Storm Thurmond | 21st October 2013 - 02:51 AM Post #82 | |
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I Disagree the should publicly cast their vote and say that they voted for who or what they wanted no matter what others think and also a person can vote one thing and say he other i believe they are called liars throughout history no? |
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-Storm Thurmond 1st Speaker Of The Senate "Russia you take out the IA move the R to the back and bam you got USSR..Mind Blown" "You know Voltaire if you take out the AI and send the RE to the front what do you get... BAM REVOLT LOGIC SON" Emperor of Xnok Proud Member of the PDA Storm Thurmond | ||
| Venturas | 21st October 2013 - 04:19 AM Post #83 | |
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That is a very long sentence to go without punctuation there. I agree that ballots should be public, but then I also think we should have citizenship requirements. |
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| Avakael | 21st October 2013 - 08:47 AM Post #84 | |
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We do have "citizenship". It's just far more open than in other regions. We'll check that you're eligible when necessary, but we won't demand your ID on the way in the door. |
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| Avakael | 21st October 2013 - 08:53 AM Post #85 | |
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One last idea; while I do not propose giving either the right to vote, I would like to propose that the Grand Chancellor and Premier have the right to propose laws, treaties and constitutional amendments to the senate. Particularly in the case of treaties it would be convenient to be able to do this. In terms of laws and constitutional amendments, it's more of a matter of "in case something is drastically broken on the legislative side of things, it would be nice for these two to directly propose solutions". AND THEN we will finally vote on this damn thing.
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| Venturas | 21st October 2013 - 09:48 AM Post #86 | |
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Aye, I accept that. You'll just have to be vigilant with the voting process. |
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| CGJ | 21st October 2013 - 12:52 PM Post #87 | |
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Perhaps the Premier should be made a non-voting member of the Senate, so that he (as the executive) may propose legislation and be held accountable by the Senate, but not greatly influence Senate decisions. The Great Chancellor should remain independent, though. Any legislation that the GC wants to pass should go through the Premier, as the representative of the executive in the legislature. |
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| Avakael | 21st October 2013 - 01:12 PM Post #88 | |
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At the moment on the current draft, the Premier and other Ministers can simultaneously be Senators as well. But just in the case of treaties in particular the executive will absolutely have to be able to directly hand them to the Senate for pass/fail, because it will be the executive government negotiating the terms out, not the senate. | |
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| CGJ | 21st October 2013 - 01:37 PM Post #89 | |
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Of course, but surely all that would be required would be a motion from either the Premier or the Speaker? On another note, I think ministers and the Premier should automatically become non-voting ex officio members of the Senate. And on a third note, are we supposed to endorse the The Armed Republic of Bayougarou? |
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| Avakael | 21st October 2013 - 11:04 PM Post #90 | |
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Maybe. Maybe we just need to not be loners in government. Lol ![]() You can endorse whoever you like in the WA. The delegate is a free for all position. |
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| Venturas | 21st October 2013 - 11:39 PM Post #91 | |
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Maybe we should add a minister of WA affairs to the government, who holds the WA delegate position in game. The whole free for all model usually ends in chaos. | |
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| Avakael | 21st October 2013 - 11:51 PM Post #92 | |
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We've had no interest in any serious WA stuff, and I've been using the openness of the seat as a selling point. To be honest, I'm thinking we should just get this charter in stone- then we can open up the system and let the legislative bodies edit and legislate underneath an actual system instead of me trying to discern what is popular.
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![]() ![]() Avakael of Klaus Devestatorie Archemperor of Unknown First Founder and Former Grand Chancellor of The Independent Order | ||
| Venturas | 22nd October 2013 - 12:56 AM Post #93 | |
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Sounds good, the Senate can always spend it's time debating any issues it has with the charter. | |
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| Avakael | 22nd October 2013 - 12:57 AM Post #94 | |
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I will put up a final document for vote later tonight (Australian time). | |
![]() ![]() Avakael of Klaus Devestatorie Archemperor of Unknown First Founder and Former Grand Chancellor of The Independent Order | ||
| Bechstein | 22nd October 2013 - 12:04 PM Post #95 | |
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Out of curiosity, how does one go about announcing their candidacy for a position? | |
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The Piano Manufacturers of Bechstein Sign of Approval <.> DISCLAIMER
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| Avakael | 22nd October 2013 - 12:33 PM Post #96 | |
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I'll put up a post that says "Election Nominations for <Date> Poll" or whatever with the positions available to run for, and people will have a window of time to run for something. | |
![]() ![]() Avakael of Klaus Devestatorie Archemperor of Unknown First Founder and Former Grand Chancellor of The Independent Order | ||
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^ 8:17 AM Jul 11
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May the force be with you.
















