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| Debate: The Providing of Freedom of Information Act; Senators Only Please | ||
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| Topic Started: 3rd December 2013 - 11:56 PM (1,139 Views) | ||
| Elpidia | 3rd December 2013 - 11:56 PM Post #1 | |
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The Rt. Hon.
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Proposed by Senator [Hidden Content: Login/Register to View]
Edited by Elpidia, 27th December 2013 - 04:48 PM.
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The Rt. Hon. Marquess Elpidia - Factbook - NS Page - EBC - Vignettes - Characters | ||
| theatom117 | 4th December 2013 - 12:00 AM Post #2 | |
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When I wrote this I did not have access to the internet would the person responsible be Minister of Integration or Culture | |
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| Elpidia | 4th December 2013 - 12:20 AM Post #3 | |
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I hope you don't mind if I put it into the format I'd like to establish as standard. And I made a few edits to make it a bit smoother.
Edited by Elpidia, 10th December 2013 - 08:11 PM.
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The Rt. Hon. Marquess Elpidia - Factbook - NS Page - EBC - Vignettes - Characters | ||
| Elpidia | 4th December 2013 - 12:21 AM Post #4 | |
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I think it would Ministry of Truth. |
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The Rt. Hon. Marquess Elpidia - Factbook - NS Page - EBC - Vignettes - Characters | ||
| theatom117 | 4th December 2013 - 12:25 AM Post #5 | |
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could you change it then please | |
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| Avakael | 4th December 2013 - 12:27 AM Post #6 | |
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Can we formalize the language in the bill? Clause 12), for example, requires a bit of work. (Sorry :P) | |
![]() ![]() Avakael of Klaus Devestatorie Archemperor of Unknown First Founder and Former Grand Chancellor of The Independent Order | ||
| theatom117 | 4th December 2013 - 12:30 AM Post #7 | |
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sorry I didn't have time to proof read it | |
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| Elpidia | 4th December 2013 - 02:37 AM Post #8 | |
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Personally I wouldn't recommend going forward with this bill. Frankly I don't think we need to legislate on these issues, I think the Ministry of Truth will do well enough on its own, and there's no need to legislate private news at this point. As far as the Senate transparency goes I was under the impression that our proceedings were viewable by the public, they just couldn't post here, is that correct? |
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The Rt. Hon. Marquess Elpidia - Factbook - NS Page - EBC - Vignettes - Characters | ||
| theatom117 | 4th December 2013 - 02:45 AM Post #9 | |
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They are I think, the point was to make it easier and less time consuming if we have 15 votes all 5 of us vote that's 75 votes to keep up with wouldn't anybody rather just look at a spreadsheet then look through 15 forum posts to get 5 votes each. | |
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| Elpidia | 4th December 2013 - 02:52 AM Post #10 | |
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To be honest I don't think most members of the region care, but I wouldn't mind making it a policy to include the vote count when I post legislation in Passed/Failed forums. |
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The Rt. Hon. Marquess Elpidia - Factbook - NS Page - EBC - Vignettes - Characters | ||
| theatom117 | 4th December 2013 - 02:55 AM Post #11 | |
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ok I here the other senators opinions and then I will decide on going through with it or not. | |
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| Avakael | 4th December 2013 - 11:36 AM Post #12 | |
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The Public Gallery forum is set aside specifically for if members of the public wish to weigh in on legislation being debated by the Senate. We should be fine on that front. | |
![]() ![]() Avakael of Klaus Devestatorie Archemperor of Unknown First Founder and Former Grand Chancellor of The Independent Order | ||
| Beatrice | 5th December 2013 - 09:56 PM Post #13 | |
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I see no reason to oppose this legislation. | |
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| Chernobereg | 9th December 2013 - 05:42 PM Post #14 | |
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Aye to the motion. | |
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Unofficial moderator of the forums "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats." H. L. Mencken | ||
| Elpidia | 9th December 2013 - 06:30 PM Post #15 | |
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I'm sorry Senator, but to which motion are you referring? |
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The Rt. Hon. Marquess Elpidia - Factbook - NS Page - EBC - Vignettes - Characters | ||
| Ceylon | 10th December 2013 - 12:37 AM Post #16 | |
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Alongside with beatrice, i see no reason to oppose this legislation | |
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| Elpidia | 10th December 2013 - 04:15 AM Post #17 | |
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I'm afraid I disagree, there a several reasons to oppose this bill. However it is an irrelevant discussion as the author has withdrawn the bill pending further review. | |
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The Rt. Hon. Marquess Elpidia - Factbook - NS Page - EBC - Vignettes - Characters | ||
| theatom117 | 10th December 2013 - 04:51 AM Post #18 | |
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no I say it is completely relevant as I said I would think about going through with it or not, which I am not withdrawing my bill. | |
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| Elpidia | 10th December 2013 - 02:39 PM Post #19 | |
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When you decide what you want to do with it I'll return it to the debate floor. | |
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The Rt. Hon. Marquess Elpidia - Factbook - NS Page - EBC - Vignettes - Characters | ||
| theatom117 | 10th December 2013 - 05:59 PM Post #20 | |
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I decided it should return to the debate floor | |
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| Elpidia | 10th December 2013 - 07:40 PM Post #21 | |
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Very well, it shall be done. However, seeing as the Criminal Code was passed this bill needs to be put in the proper format. If you don't mind Senator I shall do so on your behalf, as well as formalize the language as per the Grand Chancellors suggestion.
Edited by Elpidia, 10th December 2013 - 08:10 PM.
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The Rt. Hon. Marquess Elpidia - Factbook - NS Page - EBC - Vignettes - Characters | ||
| Elpidia | 10th December 2013 - 08:22 PM Post #22 | |
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Senators I feel the need to reiterate my position that this bill is unnecessary, and complicates something that currently has not problems. I'll list my problems with the bill. 1) I have no problem with the first section regarding Senatorial votes, but I don't see the need for legislation. We can simply make it a Speaker policy to keep such a thread. 2) I don't see the need to mandate a government news agency, especially at this time. The Ministry of Truth should be able to determine for itself when it can create such an agency. As far as I know the Minister is currently the only member of the Ministry, shall he be forced to keep up an entire news agency alone? 3) I don't see why we need to legislate that citizens can do something that they were never forbidden to do. If these news networks are going to be private, then there is no need for us to get involved. Furthermore, if our interest is in promoting private press, why are we requiring a government approval from the Ministry? |
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The Rt. Hon. Marquess Elpidia - Factbook - NS Page - EBC - Vignettes - Characters | ||
| theatom117 | 10th December 2013 - 08:31 PM Post #23 | |
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1) Having it standard and in legislation means that every speaker will have to do it by law. 2) The Ministry of Truth could ask for help if he/she needs it (I wouldn't mind helping). 3) Standardization, am protecting their right to do so not if a minister, premier or Chancellor deciding they can't. (Also if we were to do a stock market we would have registered businesses t start with.) |
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| Elpidia | 10th December 2013 - 08:36 PM Post #24 | |
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What, perchance, if no one was willing to help the Minister and he/she didn't print the newspaper? Would they not be criminally responsible? That seems ridiculous to me. |
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The Rt. Hon. Marquess Elpidia - Factbook - NS Page - EBC - Vignettes - Characters | ||
| theatom117 | 10th December 2013 - 08:39 PM Post #25 | |
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no There is no statement in the law about when the minister has to put out newspaper he can do so when he pleases. | |
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| Elpidia | 10th December 2013 - 08:47 PM Post #26 | |
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The bill states: "(4) The Ministry of Truth shall create and maintain a news agency." Therefore if the Ministry of Truth were not to maintain the news agency by posting articles they would be in violation of the law and liable to prosecution. |
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The Rt. Hon. Marquess Elpidia - Factbook - NS Page - EBC - Vignettes - Characters | ||
| theatom117 | 10th December 2013 - 08:55 PM Post #27 | |
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But the law does not require to post within a given time as it does not say how often he most post. | |
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| Elpidia | 10th December 2013 - 08:57 PM Post #28 | |
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Then the law defeats its own purpose. Why require the Ministry of Truth to maintain a news agency and then not require them to post articles? Under your interpretation the Ministry could post a single piece of news and call it a news agency. |
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The Rt. Hon. Marquess Elpidia - Factbook - NS Page - EBC - Vignettes - Characters | ||
| theatom117 | 10th December 2013 - 09:00 PM Post #29 | |
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Well certainly he could but would want to put in a clause about how much he posts? | |
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| Elpidia | 10th December 2013 - 09:04 PM Post #30 | |
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I don't understand how you don't see that this bill is frivolous. |
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The Rt. Hon. Marquess Elpidia - Factbook - NS Page - EBC - Vignettes - Characters | ||
| Beatrice | 10th December 2013 - 10:49 PM Post #31 | |
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As we're laying the groundwork for the Ministry of Culture to manage the press and media of the Independent Order if this bill is to go forward I feel it should be edited to reflect that. The Ministry of Truth may cooperate with the Ministry of Culture in that respect, but it's still a Cultural Ministry responsibility, at least in the planning we've done so far. Since Matthew Vinage has laid the groundwork I think we should continue moving forward with his efforts instead of shifting them to the Ministry of Truth. | |
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| Elpidia | 11th December 2013 - 03:18 AM Post #32 | |
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This bill is supposed to go to vote today (it's been seven days) but I think there is still much work to do, as well as much debate. I motion to prolong debate for another three days. | |
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The Rt. Hon. Marquess Elpidia - Factbook - NS Page - EBC - Vignettes - Characters | ||
| Ceylon | 11th December 2013 - 10:17 AM Post #33 | |
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Ye thats probably true i second motion | |
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| Beatrice | 11th December 2013 - 07:01 PM Post #34 | |
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I second the motion as well. | |
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| Elpidia | 11th December 2013 - 07:45 PM Post #35 | |
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Great, then with a motion and two seconds the motion carries. | |
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The Rt. Hon. Marquess Elpidia - Factbook - NS Page - EBC - Vignettes - Characters | ||
| theatom117 | 13th December 2013 - 08:44 PM Post #36 | |
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I suggest we let the Minister of Culture and Minister of Interior work on it together. | |
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| theatom117 | 16th December 2013 - 01:18 AM Post #37 | |
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[/quote]I suggest this version of the bill to be voted on as it has been 5 days and the only since the motion to prolong the debate and the only debate was me agreeing with Beatrice's post earlier. Edited by theatom117, 16th December 2013 - 01:19 AM.
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| Elpidia | 16th December 2013 - 02:08 PM Post #38 | |
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We're kind of on shaky procedural ground here. I'd like you to get two seconds to your motion before going forward with this version. | |
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The Rt. Hon. Marquess Elpidia - Factbook - NS Page - EBC - Vignettes - Characters | ||
| theatom117 | 19th December 2013 - 11:25 PM Post #39 | |
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So I have to get two people to agree to motion something to vote that is already SUPPOSE to be at vote. Really? | |
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| Elpidia | 20th December 2013 - 12:35 AM Post #40 | |
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If I'm interpreting the Charter correctly the original bill is the one that's supposed to go to vote, or at least the latest one with approved changes. Being the author doesn't give you the authority to decide what goes to vote by fiat. So basically, yes you do have to get two seconds to your motion. |
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The Rt. Hon. Marquess Elpidia - Factbook - NS Page - EBC - Vignettes - Characters | ||
| theatom117 | 20th December 2013 - 02:00 AM Post #41 | |
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You said three days on the 10. |
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| Elpidia | 20th December 2013 - 02:04 AM Post #42 | |
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That's not the issue at stake here. This version of the bill has not been approved by the Senate, you alone don't get to decide what form of the bill goes to vote. You have to have a majority to alter a bill. | |
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The Rt. Hon. Marquess Elpidia - Factbook - NS Page - EBC - Vignettes - Characters | ||
| theatom117 | 20th December 2013 - 02:25 AM Post #43 | |
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ok I understand the fact that the original is suppose to go to vote, but earlier me and Beatrice said that culture since he was laying the ground works then he should be included which is all that I changed. 1)Also if the original was suppose to go to a vote then why hasn't it or been delayed. 2)I am ok with this continued to be debated if debate actually happens. All I'm saying that for me to get approve for a minor change but you can pigeon hold this in debate without approval seems like you are abusing power. |
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| Elpidia | 20th December 2013 - 02:35 AM Post #44 | |
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The revised version of the bill, which you are suggesting we use, is not a "minor change", rather a complete re-write of the original. Therefore, it is an amendment, and therefore requires a successful motion to be adopted by the Senate. If you would like to argue what the Charter says, you are write, staying strictly in line with the Charter we should've sent this bill to a vote after seven days, regardless of any ongoing debate. However, that section of the Charter is poorly written, it is clearly necessary to have more time to debate a bill. The debate has dragged on due in large part to the inactivity of your fellow Senators, particularly Ceylon and Chernobereg. A measure of inactivity is excusable on Senator Beatrice's part, due to her dual role as Premier. Nevertheless I note your concern about my use of the Speaker's power. I assure you that despite my personal opposition to this bill, I am not attempting to use legislative trickery to stifle it. I am simply attempting to uphold parliamentary procedure. If you would like to have this revised edition of the bill go to vote, you will need seconds. I cannot allow you to decide what bills go to vote and what bills to not without the support of the Senate. |
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The Rt. Hon. Marquess Elpidia - Factbook - NS Page - EBC - Vignettes - Characters | ||
| theatom117 | 20th December 2013 - 02:44 AM Post #45 | |
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Ok I am sorry for attacking you if that is not your intention, but since I'm going to state that the seconds are unlikely but I would like everyone to be in agreement how about you propose how you would write a bill and we compromise on something. Kinda OOC: Also I think and fear most of this terms bills and constitution debate will carry on until the next term because of the inactivity; we should also try to come up with a plan to combat that in the next election. |
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| Elpidia | 20th December 2013 - 02:55 AM Post #46 | |
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Apology accepted, but really this argument was better than continued inactivity. I will work on a bill establishing a procedure for bills. I also think that these bills will carry over into the next term, but hopefully we'll be reelected for the next term to continue discussion. We need to remind the people in the next election who was active, and who wasn't. |
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The Rt. Hon. Marquess Elpidia - Factbook - NS Page - EBC - Vignettes - Characters | ||
| theatom117 | 20th December 2013 - 03:13 AM Post #47 | |
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I agree, so I'm guessing we put the vote on hold until after the election; until I think we work on this and the constitution so that there is the least amount of apposition possible? | |
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| Elpidia | 20th December 2013 - 03:15 AM Post #48 | |
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I don't think we need to close the debate, but I don't expect much more will happen until the next election. | |
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The Rt. Hon. Marquess Elpidia - Factbook - NS Page - EBC - Vignettes - Characters | ||
| theatom117 | 20th December 2013 - 03:21 AM Post #49 | |
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ok would you remind me of your problems with the bill. | |
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| Elpidia | 27th December 2013 - 04:49 PM Post #50 | |
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bump | |
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The Rt. Hon. Marquess Elpidia - Factbook - NS Page - EBC - Vignettes - Characters | ||
| Beatrice | 27th December 2013 - 07:06 PM Post #51 | |
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Further refinement (spelling/grammar) is needed before I would consider voting for this bill. As some things are already covered by what we're doing with the Ministry of Culture I'm still not sure where we're going with this bill, to be honest. With further refinement and collaboration with ongoing efforts I'll reconsider my stance. | |
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| Elpidia | 28th December 2013 - 11:40 PM Post #52 | |
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Seeing as this bill is getting no traction and seems, in my opinion, to be frivolous, I motion to table the bill. | |
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The Rt. Hon. Marquess Elpidia - Factbook - NS Page - EBC - Vignettes - Characters | ||
| Beatrice | 1st January 2014 - 05:21 PM Post #53 | |
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I second the motion to table. |
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| theatom117 | 4th January 2014 - 07:11 PM Post #54 | |
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I third that motion | |
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| Elpidia | 4th January 2014 - 07:31 PM Post #55 | |
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Motion carries | |
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The Rt. Hon. Marquess Elpidia - Factbook - NS Page - EBC - Vignettes - Characters | ||
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^ 12:49 AM Jul 11
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