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Goals Against, measuring stick?; After 30 games, 110 goals against
Topic Started: Dec 15 2008, 03:35 AM (766 Views)
bumpkin
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1st line
You guys can check my math, I have us giving up 85 the first 30 games last year. Someone needs to tell our Coach, GM, and Owner that this is not a move in the right direction. We do not score enough as it is, so giving up .83 more goals a game is disasterous. I did not check the goals for, but I doubt that is up by the same number.
Am I wrong?
Where in the World is Sebastian Collberg?
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IronIslander77
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Enter witty comment here...
With all due respect, bumpkin, we are riding a back up. As all threads tend to point to, we are rebuilding and playing Joey MacDonald, who has been doing a hell of a job behind a terrrible team. The problems go much deeper than the face value of goals against.
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puckhead
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Our D is very overrated.

You can praise Martinek and Witt all you want but the bottom line is they're the heaadliners on a backline that just flat out sucks.

Just imagine where we'd be if MacDonald hadn't given us the goaltending he has given us. We'd likely have the #1 pick locked up by now.
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BSutter21
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Led Zep's opinion notwithstanding, our all-start goalie last year covered up many of the warts of last year's team. His play enabled us to be in a playoff spot at the break last year. Then he got hurt and it all fell apart. People like to get on him, and sometimes he deserves it, like when he wanders too much, but he our best player and we will need him healthy to have any success in the near future.

That said, Joey Mac played incredible at times in November and he is far from the reason for our record. He obviously got soft/burned out from all those games in a row and it is showing now. Hopefully, DP is back soon so he can shoulder some of the load and gets us some wins.
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Webb20
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When you look at GA for an entire season and team it's a reflection of the system/team not just the goalie. Anyone here think Clemmensen on the Devils is really a 7-3-0 2.19gaa goalie or is it the Devils way of playing that just keeps the GA down?
I sold it all, retired and moved to Fabulous Las Vegas!
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."-Ben Franklin
"Government exists to protect us from each other. Where government has gone beyond its limits is in deciding to protect us from ourselves."-Ronald Reagan
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rifleman22
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Excellent point, Nick. I always thought that while Brodeur was a top level goalie he was always helped by their defense (especially Stevens, Neidermeyer etc. for years) and their defense first, heavy forecheck system.

Clemmensen is benefitting from the same thing.

Don't get me wrong, Brodeur is a HOF goalie, but I always look at SOG and the Devils have ALWAYS given up very few.

Our problem is identity again. I'm all for overspeed, etc. but we are defensively irresponsible.

And one thing that REALLY bothers me is the following:

Ever notice how when the puck is in the corner all five guys on our team are looking that way? It happens constantly. And, lo and behold, they slide a guy in the back door for an easy goal.

That is not coaching, system or goaltending. It is DISCIPLINE. And that cannot be taught.

I think Gordo needs to change a bit and stress complete defense, maybe a two man forecheck and neutral zone trapping (I hate it but it works). We need to keep the SOG down, the quality chances down and ultimtely the GAA down.

The NHL- Forecheck, Backcheck, Paycheck.
THE RIFLE

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sometimes you're the bug.
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stevedepot
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The measuring stick is good for one thing and one thing only.
And that is to beat Garth Snow over the head.


:yes:
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Islander4cups
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BSutter21,Dec 15 2008
06:46 AM
Led Zep's opinion notwithstanding, our all-start goalie last year covered up many of the warts of last year's team. His play enabled us to be in a playoff spot at the break last year. Then he got hurt and it all fell apart. People like to get on him, and sometimes he deserves it, like when he wanders too much, but he our best player and we will need him healthy to have any success in the near future.

That said, Joey Mac played incredible at times in November and he is far from the reason for our record. He obviously got soft/burned out from all those games in a row and it is showing now. Hopefully, DP is back soon so he can shoulder some of the load and gets us some wins.

You nailed it on the head.

All due respect to Joey Mac because he had a great month of Nov, but the overplaying of him is now beginning to show signs of wearing down. While the play in front of him has been lousy the last two weeks, he has begun to allow some pretty soft goals. Go back to goals one and three in the Pitt game for example.

First sign a goalie is getting overplayed... no longer controlling rebounds they used to.

Joey had been great for us so far, no doubt, but you cant' play him 24 of 25 and expect the same level of play.

As far as DP, well, the Isles were in the bottom 7 teams as far as shots allowed last year and he kept us in the playoff race until Feb.

Look at our D corps. Defensively this is how they rank

1- Witt
2- Martinek
3- Streit
4- Sutton
5- Campoli
6- FM4
7- Pock
8- Gervais

of those dmen, only Witt, Martinek and Streit would rank as a 4th dman on a very good team. Sutton & Campoli could be 5th or 6th dmen. FM4 is a 6th dman and Pock and GErvais are injury replacements...

and people are wondering why our goalies get shelled????

We don't have a legit top 3 defender on this team.

I've been saying it for 3 years on this board, but I'll say it again...it doesn't matter if it is DP, Dubie or Joey Mac between the pipes. Our problem is not between the pipes. When you expect ONE player to carry the other 19 every night for an 80-84 games schedule, don't expect much from that team...and don't expect that player to hold up either.
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LEDZEP
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Islander4cups,Dec 15 2008
01:41 PM
BSutter21,Dec 15 2008
06:46 AM
Led Zep's opinion notwithstanding, our all-start goalie last year covered up many of the warts of last year's team.  His play enabled us to be in a playoff spot at the break last year.  Then he got hurt and it all fell apart.  People like to get on him, and sometimes he deserves it, like when he wanders too much, but he our best player and we will need him healthy to have any success in the near future.

That said, Joey Mac played incredible at times in November and he is far from the reason for our record.  He obviously got soft/burned out from all those games in a row and it is showing now.  Hopefully,  DP is back soon so he can shoulder some of the load and gets us some wins.

You nailed it on the head.

All due respect to Joey Mac because he had a great month of Nov, but the overplaying of him is now beginning to show signs of wearing down. While the play in front of him has been lousy the last two weeks, he has begun to allow some pretty soft goals. Go back to goals one and three in the Pitt game for example.

First sign a goalie is getting overplayed... no longer controlling rebounds they used to.

Joey had been great for us so far, no doubt, but you cant' play him 24 of 25 and expect the same level of play.

As far as DP, well, the Isles were in the bottom 7 teams as far as shots allowed last year and he kept us in the playoff race until Feb.

Look at our D corps. Defensively this is how they rank

1- Witt
2- Martinek
3- Streit
4- Sutton
5- Campoli
6- FM4
7- Pock
8- Gervais

of those dmen, only Witt, Martinek and Streit would rank as a 4th dman on a very good team. Sutton & Campoli could be 5th or 6th dmen. FM4 is a 6th dman and Pock and GErvais are injury replacements...

and people are wondering why our goalies get shelled????

We don't have a legit top 3 defender on this team.

I've been saying it for 3 years on this board, but I'll say it again...it doesn't matter if it is DP, Dubie or Joey Mac between the pipes. Our problem is not between the pipes. When you expect ONE player to carry the other 19 every night for an 80-84 games schedule, don't expect much from that team...and don't expect that player to hold up either.

You nailed it on the head.

Lets extend his contract.
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must have the determination to stick with it and be undaunted when the going gets rough."

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bumpkin
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Webb20,Dec 15 2008
08:19 AM
When you look at GA for an entire season and team it's a reflection of the system/team not just the goalie. Anyone here think Clemmensen on the Devils is really a 7-3-0 2.19gaa goalie or is it the Devils way of playing that just keeps the GA down?

Which is what I was driving at. The system is high risk. Great for the Pens to use, lousy for us. BTW, we are up 8 goals for from last year. I also consider GA to be a team stat, we have gotten better goaltending to this point than we had the right to expect. Joey has stolen a few for us, and most of us are over Dubie already.
Hopefully Gordon will adjust to the big league, he better if he wants to stay here. If we end up with the highest GA in the League, it will not look good on anyone's resume. Even a former goalie/present GM.
Where in the World is Sebastian Collberg?
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Craving_the_Cup_Since_1992
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I agree with the comments about Joey Mac being overplayed. He's not a number 1, and it is showing. He did a bang-up job, and he's still doing what he can, but it isn't enough, especially with the crappy defense in front of him. Go-Go needs a defensive system to back up overspeed. I think his system anticipates AHL level of play. As horrible as our defenders have been, I wonder if there is a defense system for them to play, or are they making it up as they go along. Seems like it.

The lack of discipline is the players problem. The vets need to be more disciplined, and they need to pass that onto the kids.

With all of that said, the injuries are beginning to wear this team down a month early. Last season the Islanders were fighting for a playoff spot until January--then injuries, and sickness wiped them out. The same thing is happening, but in December.
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Snowy
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The Dark Knight
Goals against is an important stat, but goal differential is more important. You can let up 400 goals in a season if you're scoring 600 (exaggerating purposely).

This system is supposed to open the game up so of course we're going to allow more goals. The problem is that we don't have the scoring up front to maximize on our scoring chances. The system needs to be in place for future seasons when hopefully our skill level increases so unfortunately we're gonna have to suck it up this season. We all knew that going in.
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dragoneye
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The team gets some chances and always buries the puck into the logo of the other teams goalie. It seems most of our goals are garbage or fluky goals.
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25yearfan
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You can call me Joe.
Would be useful to see a correlation of shots allowed along with goals allowed.

Are NYI goalies (OK, MacDonald) seeing 35+ shots a game, average, vs 24 - 28 average for other teams?

Doesn't sound like a lot, but 7-11 extra SOG per game will add up to lots 'o goals.
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Webb20
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I just hope Gordon's "Overspeed" system isnt the Jeff Tambellini of hockey systems. Great on the AHL level but cant cut it on the NHL level. Those 3rd period breakdowns could be a result of playing NHL caliber teams and them adjusting to an aggressive forecheck after 2 periods unlike the inability of an AHL team making the same adjustments. In the AHL that lead is held, team wins 55 games, in the NHL that lead is lost because of better talent, better coaching and better adjusting up in the big leagues.

Sure it will help to have guys who can score, or even more speed to keep up the forecheck, but without being able to break out of the zone in the third period, what good is a strong forecheck?

This system needs to be tweaked in the defensive zone, especially in the 3rd period.

I sold it all, retired and moved to Fabulous Las Vegas!
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."-Ben Franklin
"Government exists to protect us from each other. Where government has gone beyond its limits is in deciding to protect us from ourselves."-Ronald Reagan
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stevedepot
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Webb20,Dec 16 2008
08:44 AM
I just hope Gordon's "Overspeed" system isnt the Jeff Tambellini of hockey systems. Great on the AHL level but cant cut it on the NHL level. Those 3rd period breakdowns could be a result of playing NHL caliber teams and them adjusting to an aggressive forecheck after 2 periods unlike the inability of an AHL team making the same adjustments. In the AHL that lead is held, team wins 55 games, in the NHL that lead is lost because of better talent, better coaching and better adjusting up in the big leagues.

Sure it will help to have guys who can score, or even more speed to keep up the forecheck, but without being able to break out of the zone in the third period, what good is a strong forecheck?

This system needs to be tweaked in the defensive zone, especially in the 3rd period.

:yes:

spoken like someone who's coached!
:thumbsup:

here's the thing. No matter how nice a guy he is, no matter how hard he works,
he will be judged by results. Mike Milbury worked his ass off and look at his legacy here.

What you wrote Nick is so true and something I've been saying as well.
Gordon's true test is how he makes adjustments when other teams adjust their gameplan
to counter his forechecking.

Adjustments can be subtle line changes, matchups or zone coverage.

On a "lighter" note...anyone else notice that Gordon has worn that "light" purple tie a few
times over the last 2 weeks? I think our record with coaches wearing purple ties isn't that good.

:dontknow:
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nyifancentral
4th line
Webb20,Dec 16 2008
08:44 AM
I just hope Gordon's "Overspeed" system isnt the Jeff Tambellini of hockey systems. Great on the AHL level but cant cut it on the NHL level. Those 3rd period breakdowns could be a result of playing NHL caliber teams and them adjusting to an aggressive forecheck after 2 periods unlike the inability of an AHL team making the same adjustments. In the AHL that lead is held, team wins 55 games, in the NHL that lead is lost because of better talent, better coaching and better adjusting up in the big leagues.

Sure it will help to have guys who can score, or even more speed to keep up the forecheck, but without being able to break out of the zone in the third period, what good is a strong forecheck?

This system needs to be tweaked in the defensive zone, especially in the 3rd period.

The team has not played one game all season with it's top six defenders and starting goaltender healthy all season. Martinek out for this long is just too much with Witt not the same without him.

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Shooter
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Webb20,Dec 15 2008
08:19 AM
When you look at GA for an entire season and team it's a reflection of the system/team not just the goalie. Anyone here think Clemmensen on the Devils is really a 7-3-0 2.19gaa goalie or is it the Devils way of playing that just keeps the GA down?

Bingo. System. But you need the players to employ it. Brodeur is a good goalie. Billy Smith was a good goalie. On terrible teams, we praise them far less than we do today. It's much like a quarterback in football. Do you think Eli Manning is that good? Or is it because he has Brandon Jacobs and a host of running backs, great offensive line, and wide receivers surrounding him?

Interestingly, since Jacobs and the problems at wide receiver, a return to the other Eli has emerged.

Goalie position is affected so much by the ability of a defense to limit time in their own defensive zone and quality scoring chances. As the season goes on, we're seeing more mistakes by Joey D. It was bound to happen.
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Webb20
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Godfather
nyifancentral,Dec 18 2008
03:54 AM
Webb20,Dec 16 2008
08:44 AM
I just hope Gordon's "Overspeed" system isnt the Jeff Tambellini of hockey systems.   Great on the AHL level but cant cut it on the NHL level.   Those 3rd period breakdowns could be a result of playing NHL caliber teams and them adjusting to an aggressive forecheck after 2 periods unlike the inability of an AHL team making the same adjustments.   In the AHL that lead is held, team wins 55 games, in the NHL that lead is lost because of better talent, better coaching and better adjusting up in the big leagues.

Sure it will help to have guys who can score, or even more speed to keep up the forecheck, but without being able to break out of the zone in the third period, what good is a strong forecheck?

This system needs to be tweaked in the defensive zone, especially in the 3rd period.

The team has not played one game all season with it's top six defenders and starting goaltender healthy all season. Martinek out for this long is just too much with Witt not the same without him.

Then why when we had 5 of our top 6 D out of the lineup early in the season our GA was better than when they've been in?

We should've improved in this area not get worse.

And Witt not the same without Martinek? He's an NHL veteran of how many years? We as Islander fans have been on the losing end for so long it's second nature to just make excuses for our team instead of seeing it for what it is and rejecting those excuses. Excuses are just that, excuses, it's time this team takes responsibility from the GM on down to the fans.

I sold it all, retired and moved to Fabulous Las Vegas!
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."-Ben Franklin
"Government exists to protect us from each other. Where government has gone beyond its limits is in deciding to protect us from ourselves."-Ronald Reagan
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nyifancentral
4th line
Webb20,Dec 18 2008
09:02 AM
nyifancentral,Dec 18 2008
03:54 AM
Webb20,Dec 16 2008
08:44 AM
I just hope Gordon's "Overspeed" system isnt the Jeff Tambellini of hockey systems.   Great on the AHL level but cant cut it on the NHL level.   Those 3rd period breakdowns could be a result of playing NHL caliber teams and them adjusting to an aggressive forecheck after 2 periods unlike the inability of an AHL team making the same adjustments.   In the AHL that lead is held, team wins 55 games, in the NHL that lead is lost because of better talent, better coaching and better adjusting up in the big leagues.

Sure it will help to have guys who can score, or even more speed to keep up the forecheck, but without being able to break out of the zone in the third period, what good is a strong forecheck?

This system needs to be tweaked in the defensive zone, especially in the 3rd period.

The team has not played one game all season with it's top six defenders and starting goaltender healthy all season. Martinek out for this long is just too much with Witt not the same without him.

Then why when we had 5 of our top 6 D out of the lineup early in the season our GA was better than when they've been in?

We should've improved in this area not get worse.

And Witt not the same without Martinek? He's an NHL veteran of how many years? We as Islander fans have been on the losing end for so long it's second nature to just make excuses for our team instead of seeing it for what it is and rejecting those excuses. Excuses are just that, excuses, it's time this team takes responsibility from the GM on down to the fans.

What are we all supposed to take responsibility for? It's not the general managers fault they led the league in man games lost to injury last season and well on their way to doing it again.

Brendan Witt has had at least three reported knee problems in less than a year that forcred him to miss significant time, that's not an excuse. Garth Snow did a good job resigning him and he wanted to be here. He has not looked good without Martinek or very good with anyone.

It's not anyone's fault Campoli had another shoulder injury (in a preseason game) and Sutton got hurt with both missing the early part of the season.

It's not Martinek's fault he got hit on opening night and got injured again when he returned or Meyer missed time with his hernia.

Gervais did not injure himself here on purpose.

The team led the league in blocked shots and still were giving up near the most shots of anyone.

The goaltender kept them in for a while but now his play has leveled off and all these injuries have caught up with them.

Teams lose this many games to injury they do not win, that's the only fact here that's consistent.
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