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Veteran Leadership; Let the debate begin.....
Topic Started: Jan 12 2011, 11:26 AM (497 Views)
rifleman22
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A lot has been made about the value of "veteran' leadership. Some think it is paramount and necessary, others think it is overrated.

I am in line with the latter.

First, the defintion of 'veteran" is too wide open. What is it? A guy who played a lot of years and is at the end of his career? Can't skate or score like they used to but can tell guys how to win? Or some over the hill hanger on who talks a good game but doesn't back it up with their play?

Again, in most cases, I'm in line with the lattter. Unless it is someone who leads by example, veteran leadership is overrated.

Now, for our team. Here is the way I see it.

This is John Tavares' team. The Penguins are Crosby's team. the Caps are Ovechkins team. The Hawks are Toew's team. And they were their teams from very early on in their careers. The teams they play on were built around them.

Same thing here. Make it JT's team. Build the team around him. Do so by getting value for whatever the old horses in the barn can fetch. I know we can debate the value of the Collitons, Rakshannis, Joeensu and so on. But the core of this team is young and fairly solid.

JT, Bailey, A Mac, Okposo, Comeau, Schremp, Hamonic, Nino and so on.

I would much rather see this team, which with this young cast of characters is actually playing competitive hockey (I know, not for long but they ARE playing well) dump the Sims, Weights, Hunters, DP's and Roloson's of the world and add the parts needed to take this young, inexperieinced group to the next level. Next year I do NOT want those old horses on the squad. Gimme Poulin in the pipes and a roster of good, young, hungry players who want it bad.

Supplement what we have with more talent.

I know, the doomsayers will say we don't have the braintrust to do this. I counter with the fact that I would rather count on them to bring in young players versus keeping these old grunts and scraping the bottom of the free agent barrel every year.

Let the debate begin.
THE RIFLE

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sometimes you're the bug.
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Shooter
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The last vet worthy of having on the team they traded in Roli. Move forward.
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OlTimeHockey
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Easy....yes we got the wrong old horses as if we brought in vets to mentor the kids IN PRACTICE when the key is having a first line vet ON ICE with the kids.

We need good goaltending, good defensemen and a good playmaking first liner for Tavares and Moulson.....and that helps immensely as we can get rid of the sims and gervaises.

Get three or four NHL caliber vets up front and we have three good lines right now.

Right now we have two rookies in net, one experienced defenseman, and our experienced forewards are fouth liners or third liners.

If we started out right, does Bailey look like he's floating all game? Does Tavares score more and improve on defense?

And we can't forget Gorton. Just look at how much better the kids look in all three zones with a complete hockey game being coached?
"clearly it's Rick DiPietro's stupidity that's put the islanders in this situation getting into an altercation when a game was over..." Keith Jones on VS

"But the Coliseum became a repository for all the team's troubles, a convenient scapegoat. There were suggestions that no major free agent ever would set foot in such a decrepit place. We have two words for anyone making that argument: Fenway Park. History says free agents would play in an old boxcar if they got enough money and had a chance to win." - Mark Herrmann

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4CUPZ
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Quote:
 
I know, the doomsayers will say we don't have the braintrust to do this. I counter with the fact that I would rather count on them to bring in young players versus keeping these old grunts and scraping the bottom of the free agent barrel every year.



AND JUST WHO KEEPS RESIGNING THE OLD GRUNTS
AND BRINGING IN THE BOTTOM FEEDERS OF THE F/A BARREL :dontknow:

I CANT HEAR YOU


AS FOR THE CORE YOU MENTIONED
THE ONLY 2 RIGHT NOW I'D BET ON IS
JT AND HAMONIC
BUT PUTTING BLAKE COMA ON THE LIST DID MAKE ME CHUCKLE
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rifleman22
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4CUPZ,Jan 12 2011
12:32 PM
Quote:
 
I know, the doomsayers will say we don't have the braintrust to do this. I counter with the fact that I would rather count on them to bring in young players versus keeping these old grunts and scraping the bottom of the free agent barrel every year.



AND JUST WHO KEEPS RESIGNING THE OLD GRUNTS
AND BRINGING IN THE BOTTOM FEEDERS OF THE F/A BARREL :dontknow:

I CANT HEAR YOU


AS FOR THE CORE YOU MENTIONED
THE ONLY 2 RIGHT NOW I'D BET ON IS
JT AND HAMONIC
BUT PUTTING BLAKE COMA ON THE LIST DID MAKE ME CHUCKLE

Blake Coma. Funny, very funny. :lol:

THE RIFLE

Sometimes you're the windshield,
sometimes you're the bug.
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3POTI
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Bring back...PRIDE OF THE ISLAND
although, I agree..I would like to see this be tavares's team..though I think its a bit unfair to him...It justs seems like he doesn't have the skills set as compared to crosby and ovechkin..I would think stamkos and hall would do better in leading a team than tavares would..But this is his second year with the club,and its still early..so one never knows..



Tavares doesn't excite people as much as a crosby, ovechkin, stamkos, or hall..how many people look forward to see him play? Sure he pulls off a nice move twice in ot to win a game, and he has been shooting more from outside, and scoring..still has a long way to go..

He still has stretches where he disappears...not sure if that has any effect on the players he plays with or not..or the loss of any true leaders on the team..any true "veteran" that can help nurture, guide..


I'm not sure what I really want for this team..I love watching the young guys play and learn..I just hope it not for nothing..I seen this before, chara, mccabe, bertuzzi etc...and what happen..Mad Mike...Any young team can look good, but without the right guidance whats the point?
Today Is A Great Day To Be An Islander Fan!
Live For The Moment!

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LEDZEP
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3POTI,Jan 12 2011
05:33 PM
Tavares doesn't excite people as much as a crosby

Tavares is like watching paint dry........................ :stoned:
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Come in with the milk

"A leader, once convinced a particular course of action is the right one,
must have the determination to stick with it and be undaunted when the going gets rough."

Ronald Reagan
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Islander4cups
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Rifle...

While I understand your sentiment of turn the keys over to the kids and let them drive, there is a problem in your thinking in some aspects.

You want to turn the team over to Poulin...a 20 year old... well, haven't many on this site said for years that DP needed to spend more time in the Bridge to get rid of the bad habits (wandering, overplaying pucks) and that he was brought up too soon. Well, how would that be different by having Poulin up with the parent club permanently at age 20?

You want to forgo the vets...well, I agree that Doug Weight hasn't lived up to billing as he's earned more of his contract on IR than anyone else not named DP. However, look at Pitt. Look at Washington. Look at Chicago. Yes, those teams were turned over to kids...Crosby, OV, Toews...but look at the vets who were put around them that could contribute in years 2, 3 or 4...guys like Guerin (who did contribute in PItt), Poti, Hossa, Knuble... all very solid to excellent contributors who are all vets and as of the time used (and with the exception of Guerin) not over the hill now by any stretch.
Where are these types of vets that the Isles have brought in? We've brought in Weight who hasn't played due to injury, Wiz who's gone leaving kids and depth signings like Jurcina to survive, Sim--- lol r u kidding...

So it isn't that we shouldn't look to bring in vets. We should look to bring in THE RIGHT TYPE OF VETS. I'll settle right now for bringing in one RJ Umburger to our forwards and one solid stay at home DMan as a vet to sheppard kids as a start.

Until we do that sort of thing, you can turn the team over to Tavares, Bailey, KO and Jesus Christ for that matter. It won't help. Tavares can't carry the team on his own and he and Moulson need another wing. Bailey needs someone with talent to play with AND IT AIN'T FRIKCING FRANZ NEILSSEN!!!!!

I agree that you can turn the wheel over to the kids, but you have to have the adults there to show them how to drive the car...much like driver's ed.
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stevedepot
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Bottom of the barrel affordable free agents are brought in every year but never
any significant signing. Every year we get many different scrubby players and on occasion
another teams castoff blossoms (Moulson).
That's not because of Snow. Like he knew? Snow brought back Sim 2 years in a row
so he can be waived more than a terrible towel at Steelers game.

Too bad we have no expectations going into this off season when some decent offensive players,
a couple of enforcers and a wide variety of defensemen are free agents.

Most likely none of these will come here. Not because of the building as camp koolaid and Garth Snow will tell you. But because we won't be buyers.

(not a complete list...just some notable ones)

2011-12 Free agent Defensemen
Craig Rivet
Steve Montador
Joni Pitkanen
Andrei Markov
Roman Hamrlik
Hal Gill
James Wisnewski
Andy Greene
Chris Phillips
Ed Jovanovski
Eric Brewer
Tomas Kaberle
Kevin Bieska
Sami Salo
Christian Erhoff
Scott Hannan


2011-12 Free agent forwards
Alex Tanguay
Erik Cole
Tomas Kopecky
Milan Hejduk
Tomas Fleischmann
Brad Richards
Jamie Langenbrunner
Michal Handzus
Justin Williams
Steve Sullivan
Radim Vrbata
Scottie Upshall
Pascal Dupuis
Michael Rupp
Eric Godard
Alexander Semin
Mike Knuble
Brooks Laich
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Shooter
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The Islanders don't need any more Sims, Jurcinas, Martineks, etc...enough already...Sim skates like a guy in a beer recreation league, Jurcina is the laziest guy out there, he's the defenseman in my hockey board game, sitting by the goalie spinning around constantly with no ability to cut off cycling forwards, and Martinek is a soft boiled egg, ready to crumble at the slightest bump. Move on with these types of players. Screw vets. The vets the Islanders bring in are players who couldn't get a sniff anywhere else. We instead dump guys like Bergenheim, who is now thriving with better talent around him.
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stevedepot
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With adequate veteran leadership..that early season streak by Josh Bailey looking like
he arrived could have been nurtured better so it wouldn't take him so long to find his confidence.
He's still searching.

Veteran leadership wouldn't make them into players this year nor would it guarantee a layoff spot.
It would however make them better players far quicker than the crap we see.
Few and far between are the Andy MacDonald's and he's still learning.

We get excuses and lies. That's all we get.

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OlTimeHockey
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I think that captures it: the right vets make these kids better players in the long run and better on the ice immediately. Fewer mistakes because one kid passes every second attempt 30* wide to clear his zone.....fewer mistakes in positioning two guys behind the net while one guy in on the boards with two guys covering him....fewer mistakes driving to the net and skating away from it the closer they get.

The kids need more guidance. Long term, the kids need to know what to do, how to handle losing and winning and how to endure the season.

It'd be nice to have vets like Pitt, Chicago, Philly and LA provided their kids. Has anyone thought maybe MacDonald looks great because the few quality vets we've had have all been on defense?
"clearly it's Rick DiPietro's stupidity that's put the islanders in this situation getting into an altercation when a game was over..." Keith Jones on VS

"But the Coliseum became a repository for all the team's troubles, a convenient scapegoat. There were suggestions that no major free agent ever would set foot in such a decrepit place. We have two words for anyone making that argument: Fenway Park. History says free agents would play in an old boxcar if they got enough money and had a chance to win." - Mark Herrmann

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Snowy
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Let me just start by saying that I used to think that veteran leadership was overrated.

I'm not sure how many of you watched Pens-Caps 24/7 on HBO, but one of the most interesting things I watched was the way the players acted in practice, in between periods, and before and after games. In that show, you got a great glimpse at the locker room of a winning team (Pittsburgh) and the locker room of a struggling team (Washington). As you'd guess, the atmosphere in both was vastly different. Pittsburgh was all happy, laughing, and joking. Washington's was very down, quiet, depressed almost. But during the end of Washington's losing streak, Mike Knuble, a veteran who has been on a few different teams, went on a verbal tirade during an intermission basically saying "the losing stops now". Guys on both Pittsburgh and Washington talking it up in their rooms and you can clearly see intensity and the passion they have for winning.

Then I start thinking about the "country club" quote from the anonymous Islander. What could the Islanders locker room possibly be like? I can't possibly imagine its anything like those two teams, or anything like most good teams in this league. I'm not there so I don't know, but who is the guy who stands up and takes a stand after the team plays a shitty period? And lets be honest, that happens a lot.

People also bring up good points about what veteran leadership exactly is. It's not some washed up player who can barely lace them up. Its a guy who has experience who can actually contribute on the ice. We don't have anyone like that, and it doesn't appear we're going to get anyone like that.
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Webb20
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Konopka is about the only guy who, in my mind, is the type that would stand up and call out the team when needed. I'd rather it be a vet more accomplished, but it's who we got.

I sold it all, retired and moved to Fabulous Las Vegas!
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."-Ben Franklin
"Government exists to protect us from each other. Where government has gone beyond its limits is in deciding to protect us from ourselves."-Ronald Reagan
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OlTimeHockey
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Now imagine two or three guys like a Shanihan, a Chelios and an Yzerman being inserted in there.

Tavares would be afraid to look at them. Bailey would be afraid to speak. Gervaise would get beaten up. Gillies, and I'm being serious, would be the only guy in that lockerroom they would talk to. AMac would do fine, Moulson would probably be driving harder to the net, Parenteau wouldn't miss any passes (for fear of beating in practice), DP would just shut up.

And we would have a coach resign.

I can dream......but unfortunately, it always ends with me waking up and seeing Flounder Griffen coaching this group into oblivion.

"clearly it's Rick DiPietro's stupidity that's put the islanders in this situation getting into an altercation when a game was over..." Keith Jones on VS

"But the Coliseum became a repository for all the team's troubles, a convenient scapegoat. There were suggestions that no major free agent ever would set foot in such a decrepit place. We have two words for anyone making that argument: Fenway Park. History says free agents would play in an old boxcar if they got enough money and had a chance to win." - Mark Herrmann

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Islander4cups
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From that list, I'll take Knuble and Brooks L. in a minute.
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4CUPZ
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Now imagine two or three guys like a Shanihan, a Chelios and an Yzerman being inserted in there.



I KNOW ITS FRIDAY BUT ITS STILL TO EARLY TO DRINK THAT MUCH
AND IMAGINE THIS
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OlTimeHockey
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4CUPZ,Jan 14 2011
01:38 PM
Quote:
 
Now imagine two or three guys like a Shanihan, a Chelios and an Yzerman being inserted in there.



I KNOW ITS FRIDAY BUT ITS STILL TO EARLY TO DRINK THAT MUCH
AND IMAGINE THIS

It's never too early to drink. Your 2010-11 New York Islanders. :torrey:
"clearly it's Rick DiPietro's stupidity that's put the islanders in this situation getting into an altercation when a game was over..." Keith Jones on VS

"But the Coliseum became a repository for all the team's troubles, a convenient scapegoat. There were suggestions that no major free agent ever would set foot in such a decrepit place. We have two words for anyone making that argument: Fenway Park. History says free agents would play in an old boxcar if they got enough money and had a chance to win." - Mark Herrmann

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25yearfan
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OlTimeHockey,Jan 14 2011
03:06 PM
4CUPZ,Jan 14 2011
01:38 PM
Quote:
 
Now imagine two or three guys like a Shanihan, a Chelios and an Yzerman being inserted in there.



I KNOW ITS FRIDAY BUT ITS STILL TO EARLY TO DRINK THAT MUCH
AND IMAGINE THIS

It's never too early to drink. Your 2010-11 New York Islanders. :torrey:

New sponsorship opportunity related to the drinking....

"Dad, what should Jan do about her raging hangover?"

"Too late now, but next time tell her to take Chaser Plus BEFORE she starts drinking...."


Cheesy Announcer: For safe, effective hangover prevention more people trust Chaser Plus hangover pills....
Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die.

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Islander4cups
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25yearfan,Jan 14 2011
05:00 PM
OlTimeHockey,Jan 14 2011
03:06 PM
4CUPZ,Jan 14 2011
01:38 PM
Quote:
 
Now imagine two or three guys like a Shanihan, a Chelios and an Yzerman being inserted in there.



I KNOW ITS FRIDAY BUT ITS STILL TO EARLY TO DRINK THAT MUCH
AND IMAGINE THIS

It's never too early to drink. Your 2010-11 New York Islanders. :torrey:

New sponsorship opportunity related to the drinking....

"Dad, what should Jan do about her raging hangover?"

"Too late now, but next time tell her to take Chaser Plus BEFORE she starts drinking...."


Cheesy Announcer: For safe, effective hangover prevention more people trust Chaser Plus hangover pills....

That way Jan doesn't have to take the Morning After Pill since she can't remember what happened.

MOTTO: Chaser the night before or the Morning After Pill. The choice is yours.
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