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TSN's Gord Miller on Isles; via Botta's Point Blank
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Topic Started: Apr 28 2011, 08:26 PM (1,161 Views)
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Snowy
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May 3 2011, 06:49 PM
Post #41
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The Dark Knight
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- Jackace,May 3 2011
- 06:34 PM
- rst033,May 3 2011
- 05:46 PM
you have to love how Capuano is developing Hamonic. Hamonic got quality ice time pp ice time and they let the kid take the shots at the net and develop that part of his game.
that's why a few of us get annoyed when a guy like Gord Miller says ehhh the islanders are terrible they need better players, he hasn't watched how this young core of players are starting to develop into real good players and a real good team.
ehh Garth Snow he's a terrible gm..yea well what about Michael Grabner? hey allot of team wanted Grabner means nothing-but look how Grabner played under Gordon & then under Capuano the talent was their what are you going to do about it? Jack knew Gordon, Panthers and Canucks couldn't figure it out.
look at Matt Moulson??how do you like that pick up??? o well Snow got lucky ok well what about Striet & Montoya and PA Konopka Nino Amac a 6th round pick and whoever
get my point?
is the glass half empty or half full?
Or the argument can be made that this guy Gord Miller has seen every NHL team play a couple times a year over several years and basis his opinion relative to the other 29 teams out there. He has no dog in the fight. Therefore, isn't he the perfect guy to listen to about an objective opinion on the state of the Isles?
When you're a fan of a team, it comes natural to overrate the players on that team. Getting an objective opinion from an EDUCATED outsider is usually the best kind. I'm not so sure Gord Miller is so educated. I'm sure he knows the game, and I'm not going to throw out his opinion because of that. But his opinion is no different than any of ours. His overall point is correct, but the details he used to get to that point aren't valid.
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OlTimeHockey
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May 4 2011, 01:13 AM
Post #42
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- Snowman,May 2 2011
- 01:08 PM
The 24 year old Staal is, right now, the best defenseman in the tri-state area. No question about it. However, the one thing I will say is at this point the 20 year old Hamonic has the higher upside of the two hands down.
Lets start off looking at both defensively. Staal has turned into a true shutdown defenseman in every sense. Other than the one time Ovechkin blew by him in Game 5 for a highlight reel goal, he probably stopped Ovechkin cold on 20+ of the same kind of rushes for the entire series. On the other hand, Hamonic is nowhere near that kind of level yet, but when he was drafted it was as a potential shut down defenseman. He showed great promise at being that kind of player but still had plenty of ups and downs that a 20 year old dman playing in the NHL will always have. Time will tell if Hamonic ever gets up to that level.
This is where Hamonic has a MAJOR leg up on Staal. Staal played 80 games his first seasons, 82 games in seasons 2 and 3, and this season he played 77. Staal's point totals in each season have been 10, 15, 27, and 29. That was with getting PP time this year. Hamonic, in his rookie season and playing in 62 games, put up 26 points.
Now, you will hear most likely that the Rangers don't ask Staal to produce offense and if asked to he would. I think that's a load of crap. There are very few defensemen in this league that play like Bobby Orr or Paul Coffey anymore so you dont really see monster offensive numbers. But you still see moderate offensive production from many defensemen. There were 28 defensemen in the league who produced 40+ points this season. It's not a lot to ask for. So, with that, to me Staal is developing into a stay at home defenseman. Hamonic has a chance to be a strong two-way defenseman. And as we've seen this season, it's important to have that offense on the back end to go along with the stellar defensive play.
To counter: Kenny Jonsson has/had the talent to be a 40-60 point defensemen every year he was here. He has the wheels, the positional sense SECOND TO NONE (ask any NHL player) and talent to do so.
Why didn't he?
Because KJ was smart. He risked nothing. He played defense first and the rest was secondary.
Now is KJ had a little Aucoin in him, and made the heads up risk giving up defense for points, leaving his position to make the play or hit......he leads the team in scoring a few seasons; he wins the Norris (irony).
But he was as smart a player as we've had in the entire history of our franchise.
Now if Staal plays as he has, he's far more valuable to his team, the inbreds, and bores many, and we'll see Hamonic outscore him.
Does it make Hamonic better if he scores more points? No....not unless Hamonic shuts down the best like Staal does and runs all three zones as well.
The angle in this debate will be stats vs. hockey, and Staal's hockey wins.......but I like losing if we have Hamonic.
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"clearly it's Rick DiPietro's stupidity that's put the islanders in this situation getting into an altercation when a game was over..." Keith Jones on VS
"But the Coliseum became a repository for all the team's troubles, a convenient scapegoat. There were suggestions that no major free agent ever would set foot in such a decrepit place. We have two words for anyone making that argument: Fenway Park. History says free agents would play in an old boxcar if they got enough money and had a chance to win." - Mark Herrmann
查理斯 · 請死你混蛋
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rst033
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May 4 2011, 07:14 AM
Post #43
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4th line
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- Snowman,May 3 2011
- 06:49 PM
- Jackace,May 3 2011
- 06:34 PM
- rst033,May 3 2011
- 05:46 PM
you have to love how Capuano is developing Hamonic. Hamonic got quality ice time pp ice time and they let the kid take the shots at the net and develop that part of his game.
that's why a few of us get annoyed when a guy like Gord Miller says ehhh the islanders are terrible they need better players, he hasn't watched how this young core of players are starting to develop into real good players and a real good team.
ehh Garth Snow he's a terrible gm..yea well what about Michael Grabner? hey allot of team wanted Grabner means nothing-but look how Grabner played under Gordon & then under Capuano the talent was their what are you going to do about it? Jack knew Gordon, Panthers and Canucks couldn't figure it out.
look at Matt Moulson??how do you like that pick up??? o well Snow got lucky ok well what about Striet & Montoya and PA Konopka Nino Amac a 6th round pick and whoever
get my point?
is the glass half empty or half full?
Or the argument can be made that this guy Gord Miller has seen every NHL team play a couple times a year over several years and basis his opinion relative to the other 29 teams out there. He has no dog in the fight. Therefore, isn't he the perfect guy to listen to about an objective opinion on the state of the Isles?
When you're a fan of a team, it comes natural to overrate the players on that team. Getting an objective opinion from an EDUCATED outsider is usually the best kind. I'm not so sure Gord Miller is so educated. I'm sure he knows the game, and I'm not going to throw out his opinion because of that. But his opinion is no different than any of ours. His overall point is correct, but the details he used to get to that point aren't valid.
the statement is you are what your record says you are a valid point. if you make the playoffs is it a successful season? if you make the playoffs you have a good team
my question is: did this team win the cup? no..then you had a bad season. in a nut shell only 1 team can have a good season the champion that should be the measure. so Miller can talk about the Flyers the Rangers the Pens but they're just as bad as the Islanders because they have no championship.
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stevedepot
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May 4 2011, 08:33 AM
Post #44
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WISENHEIMER
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- rst033,May 3 2011
- 05:46 PM
you have to love how Capuano is developing Hamonic. Hamonic got quality ice time pp ice time and they let the kid take the shots at the net and develop that part of his game.
that's why a few of us get annoyed when a guy like Gord Miller says ehhh the islanders are terrible they need better players, he hasn't watched how this young core of players are starting to develop into real good players and a real good team.
ehh Garth Snow he's a terrible gm..yea well what about Michael Grabner? hey allot of team wanted Grabner means nothing-but look how Grabner played under Gordon & then under Capuano the talent was their what are you going to do about it? Jack knew Gordon, Panthers and Canucks couldn't figure it out.
look at Matt Moulson??how do you like that pick up??? o well Snow got lucky ok well what about Striet & Montoya and PA Konopka Nino Amac a 6th round pick and whoever
get my point?
is the glass half empty or half full?
Sorry but I disagree with you.
Capuano is developing Hamonic? Hamonic was given a shot in training camp (as it should be) but went to Bridgeport (as it should be) and got called up as credit to his own hard work (as it should be and it's too bad MORE Isles prospects weren't handled this way).
Capuano came in under peculiar circumstances with a previous coach who was in over his head for the NHL game with his AHL system.
Grabner's minutes slightly increased under Capuano. Capuano kept lines together and didn't stir the pot like Gordon. Does that make him a great coach? We finished with the 4th worst record. Injuries is not an excuse and neither is salary. We are low budget, a circus and Gord Miller, the FAN in Gord Miller, who is sick and tired of probably seeing money hungry owners (WANG) hold back a franchise, just vented his true emotions.
Have people typing in this thread actually heard Miller call games or is this the first time they've heard him discuss our Isles? I have to wonder. Even reading Botta's blog's responses, some fans there have no clue whatsoever about the hockey background Miller has and how much POSITIVE comments he's given this franchise. But god forbid you speak out against them once when they're down. Makes for good debate though.
Truth hurts. Really does. Bothers me, but I accept it.
The glass is either half full or empty and I agree there. Depends on how us fans spin things.
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RichPilon#47
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May 4 2011, 11:28 AM
Post #45
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- stevedepot,May 4 2011
- 08:33 AM
Sorry but I disagree with you. Capuano is developing Hamonic? Hamonic was given a shot in training camp (as it should be) but went to Bridgeport (as it should be) and got called up as credit to his own hard work (as it should be and it's too bad MORE Isles prospects weren't handled this way). Capuano came in under peculiar circumstances with a previous coach who was in over his head for the NHL game with his AHL system. Grabner's minutes slightly increased under Capuano. Capuano kept lines together and didn't stir the pot like Gordon. Does that make him a great coach? We finished with the 4th worst record. Injuries is not an excuse and neither is salary. We are low budget, a circus and Gord Miller, the FAN in Gord Miller, who is sick and tired of probably seeing money hungry owners (WANG) hold back a franchise, just vented his true emotions. Have people typing in this thread actually heard Miller call games or is this the first time they've heard him discuss our Isles? I have to wonder. Even reading Botta's blog's responses, some fans there have no clue whatsoever about the hockey background Miller has and how much POSITIVE comments he's given this franchise. But god forbid you speak out against them once when they're down. Makes for good debate though. Truth hurts. Really does. Bothers me, but I accept it. The glass is either half full or empty and I agree there. Depends on how us fans spin things.
I agree, I don't understand why people are getting upset over obvious facts.
That could've been damien cox (the reporter we all loathe)trashing the Islanders' ownership and we should all still agree no matter how badly that jackass does his research.
But for Gord I give him the benefit of a doubt. I love the 03 draft reference and how every team should adopt his scouting method, of players going through juniors still.
Good for Konopka to stand up and be a real leader by trashing the TSN crew, but seriously, who was he trying to fool.
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In prison, before you die from lethal injection, they first swab your arm with alcohol to prevent an infection.
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RichPilon#47
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May 4 2011, 11:31 AM
Post #46
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1st line
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- rst033,May 3 2011
- 05:46 PM
you have to love how Capuano is developing Hamonic. Hamonic got quality ice time pp ice time and they let the kid take the shots at the net and develop that part of his game.
that's why a few of us get annoyed when a guy like Gord Miller says ehhh the islanders are terrible they need better players, he hasn't watched how this young core of players are starting to develop into real good players and a real good team.
ehh Garth Snow he's a terrible gm..yea well what about Michael Grabner? hey allot of team wanted Grabner means nothing-but look how Grabner played under Gordon & then under Capuano the talent was their what are you going to do about it? Jack knew Gordon, Panthers and Canucks couldn't figure it out.
look at Matt Moulson??how do you like that pick up??? o well Snow got lucky ok well what about Striet & Montoya and PA Konopka Nino Amac a 6th round pick and whoever
get my point?
is the glass half empty or half full?
Umm HE NEVER DISSED SNOW
he's dissing Wang who we all agree has turn this franchise into a complete joke for years.
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In prison, before you die from lethal injection, they first swab your arm with alcohol to prevent an infection.
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rst033
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May 4 2011, 12:34 PM
Post #47
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- stevedepot,May 4 2011
- 08:33 AM
- rst033,May 3 2011
- 05:46 PM
you have to love how Capuano is developing Hamonic. Hamonic got quality ice time pp ice time and they let the kid take the shots at the net and develop that part of his game.
that's why a few of us get annoyed when a guy like Gord Miller says ehhh the islanders are terrible they need better players, he hasn't watched how this young core of players are starting to develop into real good players and a real good team.
ehh Garth Snow he's a terrible gm..yea well what about Michael Grabner? hey allot of team wanted Grabner means nothing-but look how Grabner played under Gordon & then under Capuano the talent was their what are you going to do about it? Jack knew Gordon, Panthers and Canucks couldn't figure it out.
look at Matt Moulson??how do you like that pick up??? o well Snow got lucky ok well what about Striet & Montoya and PA Konopka Nino Amac a 6th round pick and whoever
get my point?
is the glass half empty or half full?
Sorry but I disagree with you. Capuano is developing Hamonic? Hamonic was given a shot in training camp (as it should be) but went to Bridgeport (as it should be) and got called up as credit to his own hard work (as it should be and it's too bad MORE Isles prospects weren't handled this way). Capuano came in under peculiar circumstances with a previous coach who was in over his head for the NHL game with his AHL system. Grabner's minutes slightly increased under Capuano. Capuano kept lines together and didn't stir the pot like Gordon. Does that make him a great coach? We finished with the 4th worst record. Injuries is not an excuse and neither is salary. We are low budget, a circus and Gord Miller, the FAN in Gord Miller, who is sick and tired of probably seeing money hungry owners (WANG) hold back a franchise, just vented his true emotions. Have people typing in this thread actually heard Miller call games or is this the first time they've heard him discuss our Isles? I have to wonder. Even reading Botta's blog's responses, some fans there have no clue whatsoever about the hockey background Miller has and how much POSITIVE comments he's given this franchise. But god forbid you speak out against them once when they're down. Makes for good debate though. Truth hurts. Really does. Bothers me, but I accept it. The glass is either half full or empty and I agree there. Depends on how us fans spin things.
come on you have to agree to give a little tiny winny credit to Capuano can't you?? if i really thought the islanders had no hope i would come out and say it. Miller can say whatever he wants and i'll give the critics one point- the team needs to win.
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Snowy
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May 4 2011, 12:34 PM
Post #48
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The Dark Knight
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- OlTimeHockey,May 4 2011
- 01:13 AM
- Snowman,May 2 2011
- 01:08 PM
The 24 year old Staal is, right now, the best defenseman in the tri-state area. No question about it. However, the one thing I will say is at this point the 20 year old Hamonic has the higher upside of the two hands down.
Lets start off looking at both defensively. Staal has turned into a true shutdown defenseman in every sense. Other than the one time Ovechkin blew by him in Game 5 for a highlight reel goal, he probably stopped Ovechkin cold on 20+ of the same kind of rushes for the entire series. On the other hand, Hamonic is nowhere near that kind of level yet, but when he was drafted it was as a potential shut down defenseman. He showed great promise at being that kind of player but still had plenty of ups and downs that a 20 year old dman playing in the NHL will always have. Time will tell if Hamonic ever gets up to that level.
This is where Hamonic has a MAJOR leg up on Staal. Staal played 80 games his first seasons, 82 games in seasons 2 and 3, and this season he played 77. Staal's point totals in each season have been 10, 15, 27, and 29. That was with getting PP time this year. Hamonic, in his rookie season and playing in 62 games, put up 26 points.
Now, you will hear most likely that the Rangers don't ask Staal to produce offense and if asked to he would. I think that's a load of crap. There are very few defensemen in this league that play like Bobby Orr or Paul Coffey anymore so you dont really see monster offensive numbers. But you still see moderate offensive production from many defensemen. There were 28 defensemen in the league who produced 40+ points this season. It's not a lot to ask for. So, with that, to me Staal is developing into a stay at home defenseman. Hamonic has a chance to be a strong two-way defenseman. And as we've seen this season, it's important to have that offense on the back end to go along with the stellar defensive play.
To counter: Kenny Jonsson has/had the talent to be a 40-60 point defensemen every year he was here. He has the wheels, the positional sense SECOND TO NONE (ask any NHL player) and talent to do so. Why didn't he? Because KJ was smart. He risked nothing. He played defense first and the rest was secondary. Now is KJ had a little Aucoin in him, and made the heads up risk giving up defense for points, leaving his position to make the play or hit......he leads the team in scoring a few seasons; he wins the Norris (irony). But he was as smart a player as we've had in the entire history of our franchise. Now if Staal plays as he has, he's far more valuable to his team, the inbreds, and bores many, and we'll see Hamonic outscore him. Does it make Hamonic better if he scores more points? No....not unless Hamonic shuts down the best like Staal does and runs all three zones as well. The angle in this debate will be stats vs. hockey, and Staal's hockey wins.......but I like losing if we have Hamonic.
There's no could have or should haves. KJs positional talent was outstanding, but second to none? Don't think so. Nik Lidstrom was the elite positional defenseman in this league for almost two decades. And he just went out nearly every one of his 19 NHL seasons and put up those 40-60 point seasons like you mentioned. And every season he's been in the NHL, his offensive numbers have been better than any of Staal's offensive years. Point is, defensive play should NEVER be an excuse as to why a defenseman doesn't put up offense. It holds no water. Either you can produce points from the blue line or you can't. Kenny Jonsson was an excellent defenseman. He could play on my team anyday. And did he have offensive talent? Yes, absolutely. So does Staal. But talent doesn't equal points, no matter what position you play.
My point was simply that Staal is developing into a stay at home defenseman. Hamonic's small body of work has shown that he may be more than a stay at home defenseman. The jury is still out on both. But the point is that when you want that franchise defenseman, they produce on both ends of the ice: see Lidstrom, Pronger, Potvin, Orr, Bourque, Chelios (in his prime), Chara, Weber. I'm a big fan of the stay at home defenseman. Give me two or three of them on the Isles anyday, as long as they play their position well. They are needed on any "consistant contender" or championship team. But those ones who can produce on both ends of the ice, those are rare. But they certainly don't sacrifice offense to produce defense, they simply just produce both because they are good enough to do so.
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stevedepot
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May 4 2011, 12:38 PM
Post #49
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WISENHEIMER
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- rst033,May 4 2011
- 12:34 PM
- stevedepot,May 4 2011
- 08:33 AM
- rst033,May 3 2011
- 05:46 PM
you have to love how Capuano is developing Hamonic. Hamonic got quality ice time pp ice time and they let the kid take the shots at the net and develop that part of his game.
that's why a few of us get annoyed when a guy like Gord Miller says ehhh the islanders are terrible they need better players, he hasn't watched how this young core of players are starting to develop into real good players and a real good team.
ehh Garth Snow he's a terrible gm..yea well what about Michael Grabner? hey allot of team wanted Grabner means nothing-but look how Grabner played under Gordon & then under Capuano the talent was their what are you going to do about it? Jack knew Gordon, Panthers and Canucks couldn't figure it out.
look at Matt Moulson??how do you like that pick up??? o well Snow got lucky ok well what about Striet & Montoya and PA Konopka Nino Amac a 6th round pick and whoever
get my point?
is the glass half empty or half full?
Sorry but I disagree with you. Capuano is developing Hamonic? Hamonic was given a shot in training camp (as it should be) but went to Bridgeport (as it should be) and got called up as credit to his own hard work (as it should be and it's too bad MORE Isles prospects weren't handled this way). Capuano came in under peculiar circumstances with a previous coach who was in over his head for the NHL game with his AHL system. Grabner's minutes slightly increased under Capuano. Capuano kept lines together and didn't stir the pot like Gordon. Does that make him a great coach? We finished with the 4th worst record. Injuries is not an excuse and neither is salary. We are low budget, a circus and Gord Miller, the FAN in Gord Miller, who is sick and tired of probably seeing money hungry owners (WANG) hold back a franchise, just vented his true emotions. Have people typing in this thread actually heard Miller call games or is this the first time they've heard him discuss our Isles? I have to wonder. Even reading Botta's blog's responses, some fans there have no clue whatsoever about the hockey background Miller has and how much POSITIVE comments he's given this franchise. But god forbid you speak out against them once when they're down. Makes for good debate though. Truth hurts. Really does. Bothers me, but I accept it. The glass is either half full or empty and I agree there. Depends on how us fans spin things.
come on you have to agree to give a little tiny winny credit to Capuano can't you?? if i really thought the islanders had no hope i would come out and say it. Miller can say whatever he wants and i'll give the critics one point- the team needs to win.
Are we talking teensy weeensie or itsy bitsie?
:lol:
J/K
I like Cap. Short term. Long term, not so much. Don't think he's the answer. He'll be heavily outmatched going forward but his salary was a the deciding factor.
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OlTimeHockey
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May 4 2011, 01:29 PM
Post #50
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All Star
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- Snowman,May 4 2011
- 12:34 PM
- OlTimeHockey,May 4 2011
- 01:13 AM
- Snowman,May 2 2011
- 01:08 PM
The 24 year old Staal is, right now, the best defenseman in the tri-state area. No question about it. However, the one thing I will say is at this point the 20 year old Hamonic has the higher upside of the two hands down.
Lets start off looking at both defensively. Staal has turned into a true shutdown defenseman in every sense. Other than the one time Ovechkin blew by him in Game 5 for a highlight reel goal, he probably stopped Ovechkin cold on 20+ of the same kind of rushes for the entire series. On the other hand, Hamonic is nowhere near that kind of level yet, but when he was drafted it was as a potential shut down defenseman. He showed great promise at being that kind of player but still had plenty of ups and downs that a 20 year old dman playing in the NHL will always have. Time will tell if Hamonic ever gets up to that level.
This is where Hamonic has a MAJOR leg up on Staal. Staal played 80 games his first seasons, 82 games in seasons 2 and 3, and this season he played 77. Staal's point totals in each season have been 10, 15, 27, and 29. That was with getting PP time this year. Hamonic, in his rookie season and playing in 62 games, put up 26 points.
Now, you will hear most likely that the Rangers don't ask Staal to produce offense and if asked to he would. I think that's a load of crap. There are very few defensemen in this league that play like Bobby Orr or Paul Coffey anymore so you dont really see monster offensive numbers. But you still see moderate offensive production from many defensemen. There were 28 defensemen in the league who produced 40+ points this season. It's not a lot to ask for. So, with that, to me Staal is developing into a stay at home defenseman. Hamonic has a chance to be a strong two-way defenseman. And as we've seen this season, it's important to have that offense on the back end to go along with the stellar defensive play.
To counter: Kenny Jonsson has/had the talent to be a 40-60 point defensemen every year he was here. He has the wheels, the positional sense SECOND TO NONE (ask any NHL player) and talent to do so. Why didn't he? Because KJ was smart. He risked nothing. He played defense first and the rest was secondary. Now is KJ had a little Aucoin in him, and made the heads up risk giving up defense for points, leaving his position to make the play or hit......he leads the team in scoring a few seasons; he wins the Norris (irony). But he was as smart a player as we've had in the entire history of our franchise. Now if Staal plays as he has, he's far more valuable to his team, the inbreds, and bores many, and we'll see Hamonic outscore him. Does it make Hamonic better if he scores more points? No....not unless Hamonic shuts down the best like Staal does and runs all three zones as well. The angle in this debate will be stats vs. hockey, and Staal's hockey wins.......but I like losing if we have Hamonic.
There's no could have or should haves. KJs positional talent was outstanding, but second to none? Don't think so. Nik Lidstrom was the elite positional defenseman in this league for almost two decades. And he just went out nearly every one of his 19 NHL seasons and put up those 40-60 point seasons like you mentioned. And every season he's been in the NHL, his offensive numbers have been better than any of Staal's offensive years. Point is, defensive play should NEVER be an excuse as to why a defenseman doesn't put up offense. It holds no water. Either you can produce points from the blue line or you can't. Kenny Jonsson was an excellent defenseman. He could play on my team anyday. And did he have offensive talent? Yes, absolutely. So does Staal. But talent doesn't equal points, no matter what position you play. My point was simply that Staal is developing into a stay at home defenseman. Hamonic's small body of work has shown that he may be more than a stay at home defenseman. The jury is still out on both. But the point is that when you want that franchise defenseman, they produce on both ends of the ice: see Lidstrom, Pronger, Potvin, Orr, Bourque, Chelios (in his prime), Chara, Weber. I'm a big fan of the stay at home defenseman. Give me two or three of them on the Isles anyday, as long as they play their position well. They are needed on any "consistant contender" or championship team. But those ones who can produce on both ends of the ice, those are rare. But they certainly don't sacrifice offense to produce defense, they simply just produce both because they are good enough to do so.
Lidstrom is better than KJ, obviously.
But KJ's positioning was as good. Nik does leave his positioning to make the offensive plays and thus he is great. KJ? There were countless times his dedication annoyed, how I wish he would make the charge up ice knowing he had the talent but alas, his game was dedicated to D first.
Just a subtle counter.....there's no arguing Nik is the best d-man in the past two decades and Potvin's all around game was better than both. KJ was just a supremely intelligent d-first guy. (I recall the Wings wanted him years ago).
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"clearly it's Rick DiPietro's stupidity that's put the islanders in this situation getting into an altercation when a game was over..." Keith Jones on VS
"But the Coliseum became a repository for all the team's troubles, a convenient scapegoat. There were suggestions that no major free agent ever would set foot in such a decrepit place. We have two words for anyone making that argument: Fenway Park. History says free agents would play in an old boxcar if they got enough money and had a chance to win." - Mark Herrmann
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Snowy
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May 4 2011, 02:45 PM
Post #51
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The Dark Knight
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- OlTimeHockey,May 4 2011
- 01:29 PM
- Snowman,May 4 2011
- 12:34 PM
- OlTimeHockey,May 4 2011
- 01:13 AM
- Snowman,May 2 2011
- 01:08 PM
The 24 year old Staal is, right now, the best defenseman in the tri-state area. No question about it. However, the one thing I will say is at this point the 20 year old Hamonic has the higher upside of the two hands down.
Lets start off looking at both defensively. Staal has turned into a true shutdown defenseman in every sense. Other than the one time Ovechkin blew by him in Game 5 for a highlight reel goal, he probably stopped Ovechkin cold on 20+ of the same kind of rushes for the entire series. On the other hand, Hamonic is nowhere near that kind of level yet, but when he was drafted it was as a potential shut down defenseman. He showed great promise at being that kind of player but still had plenty of ups and downs that a 20 year old dman playing in the NHL will always have. Time will tell if Hamonic ever gets up to that level.
This is where Hamonic has a MAJOR leg up on Staal. Staal played 80 games his first seasons, 82 games in seasons 2 and 3, and this season he played 77. Staal's point totals in each season have been 10, 15, 27, and 29. That was with getting PP time this year. Hamonic, in his rookie season and playing in 62 games, put up 26 points.
Now, you will hear most likely that the Rangers don't ask Staal to produce offense and if asked to he would. I think that's a load of crap. There are very few defensemen in this league that play like Bobby Orr or Paul Coffey anymore so you dont really see monster offensive numbers. But you still see moderate offensive production from many defensemen. There were 28 defensemen in the league who produced 40+ points this season. It's not a lot to ask for. So, with that, to me Staal is developing into a stay at home defenseman. Hamonic has a chance to be a strong two-way defenseman. And as we've seen this season, it's important to have that offense on the back end to go along with the stellar defensive play.
To counter: Kenny Jonsson has/had the talent to be a 40-60 point defensemen every year he was here. He has the wheels, the positional sense SECOND TO NONE (ask any NHL player) and talent to do so. Why didn't he? Because KJ was smart. He risked nothing. He played defense first and the rest was secondary. Now is KJ had a little Aucoin in him, and made the heads up risk giving up defense for points, leaving his position to make the play or hit......he leads the team in scoring a few seasons; he wins the Norris (irony). But he was as smart a player as we've had in the entire history of our franchise. Now if Staal plays as he has, he's far more valuable to his team, the inbreds, and bores many, and we'll see Hamonic outscore him. Does it make Hamonic better if he scores more points? No....not unless Hamonic shuts down the best like Staal does and runs all three zones as well. The angle in this debate will be stats vs. hockey, and Staal's hockey wins.......but I like losing if we have Hamonic.
There's no could have or should haves. KJs positional talent was outstanding, but second to none? Don't think so. Nik Lidstrom was the elite positional defenseman in this league for almost two decades. And he just went out nearly every one of his 19 NHL seasons and put up those 40-60 point seasons like you mentioned. And every season he's been in the NHL, his offensive numbers have been better than any of Staal's offensive years. Point is, defensive play should NEVER be an excuse as to why a defenseman doesn't put up offense. It holds no water. Either you can produce points from the blue line or you can't. Kenny Jonsson was an excellent defenseman. He could play on my team anyday. And did he have offensive talent? Yes, absolutely. So does Staal. But talent doesn't equal points, no matter what position you play. My point was simply that Staal is developing into a stay at home defenseman. Hamonic's small body of work has shown that he may be more than a stay at home defenseman. The jury is still out on both. But the point is that when you want that franchise defenseman, they produce on both ends of the ice: see Lidstrom, Pronger, Potvin, Orr, Bourque, Chelios (in his prime), Chara, Weber. I'm a big fan of the stay at home defenseman. Give me two or three of them on the Isles anyday, as long as they play their position well. They are needed on any "consistant contender" or championship team. But those ones who can produce on both ends of the ice, those are rare. But they certainly don't sacrifice offense to produce defense, they simply just produce both because they are good enough to do so.
Lidstrom is better than KJ, obviously. But KJ's positioning was as good. Nik does leave his positioning to make the offensive plays and thus he is great. KJ? There were countless times his dedication annoyed, how I wish he would make the charge up ice knowing he had the talent but alas, his game was dedicated to D first. Just a subtle counter.....there's no arguing Nik is the best d-man in the past two decades and Potvin's all around game was better than both. KJ was just a supremely intelligent d-first guy. (I recall the Wings wanted him years ago).
If you want me to agree with you that an all defense, no offense defenseman (lets use Brendan Witt as an example) is more valuable than an all offense, no defense defenseman (lets use Sandis Ozolinsh and this example), I agree 100%. You'll never find an argument from me there. However, I was trying to think of two extremes that were good players, but weren't HOF quality such as those two. Let me make this a bit tougher.
Not based on age or injury history. But based on each player's best career season at both ends of the ice. And also taking into account the team that each played on. Assuming that next season each player duplicates their best season, who would you rather have: Marc Staal or Mark Streit? For Staal's best season we'll use 2010-11. For Streit's best season I'll use 2008-09 (he had more points in 07-08 but more goals and a better +/- in 08-09).
Marc Staal (10-11): 77 GP, 7 G, 22 A, 29 P, +/- +8, 50 PIM, 11 PPP, 4 SHP Marc Streit (08-09): 74 GP, 16 G, 40 A, 56 P, +/- +6, 62 PIM, 29 PPP, 2 SHP
Again, this is not an age issue because we'd all rather have Staal based on age. But knowing what both players bring to the table overall as top pairing defensemen for their current clubs, and also knowing how good/bad each of their clubs were during those seasons, which player would you rather have? There's no right or wrong answer here, I'm just curious.
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OlTimeHockey
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May 4 2011, 03:04 PM
Post #52
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All Star
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It's tough because of the offense and HAD talent - Streit.
But in pure hockey, I would love to have Staal.
Staal and Hamonic or Streit and Hamonic? Staal.
That said, Streit hopefully gets back to his first year form, not his second year.
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"clearly it's Rick DiPietro's stupidity that's put the islanders in this situation getting into an altercation when a game was over..." Keith Jones on VS
"But the Coliseum became a repository for all the team's troubles, a convenient scapegoat. There were suggestions that no major free agent ever would set foot in such a decrepit place. We have two words for anyone making that argument: Fenway Park. History says free agents would play in an old boxcar if they got enough money and had a chance to win." - Mark Herrmann
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