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DRAFT LOTTERY DISCUSSION; Isles move to 5th in Draft
Topic Started: Apr 8 2011, 02:53 PM (3,078 Views)
IslandersWin86
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Seems like we got a bunch of Mad Mike's when it comes to getting rid of Bailey.

When we say that Bailey is "not worth much" (paraphrasing), remember when he went down to Bridgeport, I think Botta wrote about how many phone calls Garth got about moving him. He's not done. He's going to get better, it's just going to take longer because he was rushed initially. We saw what he can do, he dominated a few games earlier this year, he dominated when he went to Bridgeport...it's just a matter of consistency and a mental component. We've heard since day 1 that his head is in the right place...he just needs to mature his game. He'll get there.
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stevedepot
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WISENHEIMER
IslandersWin86,Apr 15 2011
06:47 AM
Seems like we got a bunch of Mad Mike's when it comes to getting rid of Bailey.

When we say that Bailey is "not worth much" (paraphrasing), remember when he went down to Bridgeport, I think Botta wrote about how many phone calls Garth got about moving him. He's not done. He's going to get better, it's just going to take longer because he was rushed initially. We saw what he can do, he dominated a few games earlier this year, he dominated when he went to Bridgeport...it's just a matter of consistency and a mental component. We've heard since day 1 that his head is in the right place...he just needs to mature his game. He'll get there.

Great point 86!!!

Totally agree. Unlike Comeau, he is not reluctant to go into high traffic areas with the puck.
He may have made alot of mistakes this past year, but his head and unfortunately, his confidence is in the wrong place.

He has the hockey sense that is way better than alot of these young over hyped top 5 centers in upcoming draft. He can and should be our #2 center going forward.

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Islander4cups
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In Garth I Trust
Snowman39,Apr 10 2011
10:38 PM
Instead of signing Parise to an offer sheet, I'd rather try and just trade for Rick Nash. In order for the Devils to decide not to match, the contract would have to be so big that it would trigger the 4 first round picks value. There is no way I would do that. You could trade for Nash for much less than that.

What do you give up to CBJ who will want a king's ransom
I miss these :cup: :cup: :cup: :cup: and want more of them
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Islander4cups
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Snowman39,Apr 14 2011
10:33 PM
Jackace,Apr 14 2011
06:32 PM
Snowman39,Apr 14 2011
02:11 PM
puckhead,Apr 14 2011
12:20 PM
rifleman22,Apr 14 2011
11:44 AM
Package Bailey, Gervais and the pick and get a decent winger for JT and Matt.

Yup that's just what another team would give up.........a good winger for Bailey, Gervais and the pick :rolleyes:

Bailey has minimal value and Gervais has negative value. Is anyone here silly enough to think that we know how terrible Bruno is but NHL scouts don't? Nobody wants him. Nobody would want a guy like Hillen either. Our defense is HORRIBLE. The only defensemen we have that anyone would want is MacDonald, Hamonic, and Streit. Some of our AHL and junior prospects would have value too. Maybe, if we're lucky, we could throw a guy like Eaton in a deal as a throw in. That's a huge maybe.

Snowy- Rifle didn't say a dominant winger, but merely a decent winger. To give up a 22 year old that was chosen #9 overall 3 years ago plus the #5 overall pick is a lot to give up for a decent player. Obviously, adding Brutal to a trade package does nothing but unload dead weight from the Isles, but giving up the 5th pick plus Bailey better get us a player better than good.

What everyone's definition of "good" or "decent" players is up for debate. But I dont discredit that package because Brutal stinks. The other players IMO would balance out a decent player back coming back.

Yeah but Jack, Bruno is only going to be under contract to the Isles if they want him to be. He's an RFA who won't be qualified, IMHO. In fact, I've made that a guarantee in another thread. Time will tell if I have egg on my face. But as far as I'm concerned, he's already gone.

Now, about Bailey. When Travis Zajac came to the NHL as a 22 year old, he put up a 44 point season as a rookie, then regressed in his second year and put up 34 points. His third and fourth years he bounced back and put up two 60+ point seasons. Brandon Dubinsky's rookie year he was also 22 years old. He put up three straight 40+ point seasons and this year he put up a 50+ point season. Josh Bailey's age at the start of next hockey season: 22 years old.

If Bailey turns out to be as good as either Zajac or Dubinsky, would everyone here take that? If your answer to that is yes, I would say that I agree with you. Is it realistic to think that Bailey can be as good as either of those two players? Absolutely. Bailey can do good things on a hockey rink. But he has three things working against him:

1. They kept dicking around with him by shuffling him between center and wing.
2. He is inconsistent.
3. He isn't John Tavares.

I said this about Okposo about a month ago and I will say it again about Bailey. It is not this kid's fault that he was rushed. In many other organizations, this season or next season would have been his rookie year in the NHL. I wouldn't trade Bailey for a decent winger. And Bailey's regression this season should be a concern, but by no means is he ruined. Not yet anyway. But those are the reasons that we shouldn't trade him.

To an outside organization, Bailey has little value. If he had never played an NHL game and played a full season in Bridgeport this year, he probably would have put up 80-90 points and his value would be much higher than it is now. Anyway, Bailey will probably have Nino and either Comeau or PA as his wingers next season, and will benefit from that. I'm fairly confident you'll see at least 40 points out of Bailey next season.

Agreed. Bailey should actually center Okposo & Grabner next season. I'd actually be pleased to see a lineup more along these lines...

Moulson-Tavares- Nino (or Okposo)
Grabner- Bailey- Okposo (or Nino)
Comeau- Franz- Martin
someone not named Gillies- Konopka- Haley

I'll roll into next season with that forward lineup if we don't land an FA forward for first line.

We are likely looking at

Streit- ???
Hamonic - MacD
Eaton- Motta

depth- Jurcina, Wysart, Katic

for next season. I think DeHaan starts at the Bridge.

Your point about Bailey being jerked around is an excellent one and it is a reason why I don't have as much confidence in Cappy as I'd like. Anyone who gives Franz PP time on the Point :rofl: and second line time with his LIMITED offensive skills I question. Bailey has gotten to play with a rolling lineup of stiffs in his three seasons with us and never had a legit winger to play with. If the Isles are that determined to make Josh a wing, they should have moved him to first line and moved PA down. You don't take young talent and rush it...but we do. And if you choose to do that, you don't have it playing with a bunch of nothings and then act shocked when there isn't production.

jmho
I miss these :cup: :cup: :cup: :cup: and want more of them
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stevedepot
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I4C, that is the most likely scenario with little to nothing added.

But I absolutely LOVE this quote from you.
So true.

Quote:
 
You don't take young talent and rush it...but we do. And if you choose to do that, you don't have it playing with a bunch of nothings and then act shocked when there isn't production.


Beyond that...you have guys like Grabner who came from other orgs that never gave him a chance and had any patience...
he went from many mind-boggling restrictions (Gordon), to go out and play (Capuano) and with no pressure, he thrived in his final year of entry level deal.

Some guys develop quicker, some guys need the right situation, some guys need coddling, some guys need more leadership/guidance.

I hope whoever we draft isn't rushed for their sake and ours.
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Webb20
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Godfather
Too bad Bailey can't hook up at the Worlds. A tournament like that, outside the Islanders world and in the real hockey world, would do wonders for him and his confidence. But you don't even get looked at when you show 28 points for the season. He's in a tough situation. He needs a breath of fresh air for his head, but there is no avenue for a 22 year old like him outside of the Isles.

I sold it all, retired and moved to Fabulous Las Vegas!
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."-Ben Franklin
"Government exists to protect us from each other. Where government has gone beyond its limits is in deciding to protect us from ourselves."-Ronald Reagan
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Snowy
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Islander4cups,Apr 15 2011
08:57 AM
Snowman39,Apr 14 2011
10:33 PM
Jackace,Apr 14 2011
06:32 PM
Snowman39,Apr 14 2011
02:11 PM
puckhead,Apr 14 2011
12:20 PM
rifleman22,Apr 14 2011
11:44 AM
Package Bailey, Gervais and the pick and get a decent winger for JT and Matt.

Yup that's just what another team would give up.........a good winger for Bailey, Gervais and the pick :rolleyes:

Bailey has minimal value and Gervais has negative value. Is anyone here silly enough to think that we know how terrible Bruno is but NHL scouts don't? Nobody wants him. Nobody would want a guy like Hillen either. Our defense is HORRIBLE. The only defensemen we have that anyone would want is MacDonald, Hamonic, and Streit. Some of our AHL and junior prospects would have value too. Maybe, if we're lucky, we could throw a guy like Eaton in a deal as a throw in. That's a huge maybe.

Snowy- Rifle didn't say a dominant winger, but merely a decent winger. To give up a 22 year old that was chosen #9 overall 3 years ago plus the #5 overall pick is a lot to give up for a decent player. Obviously, adding Brutal to a trade package does nothing but unload dead weight from the Isles, but giving up the 5th pick plus Bailey better get us a player better than good.

What everyone's definition of "good" or "decent" players is up for debate. But I dont discredit that package because Brutal stinks. The other players IMO would balance out a decent player back coming back.

Yeah but Jack, Bruno is only going to be under contract to the Isles if they want him to be. He's an RFA who won't be qualified, IMHO. In fact, I've made that a guarantee in another thread. Time will tell if I have egg on my face. But as far as I'm concerned, he's already gone.

Now, about Bailey. When Travis Zajac came to the NHL as a 22 year old, he put up a 44 point season as a rookie, then regressed in his second year and put up 34 points. His third and fourth years he bounced back and put up two 60+ point seasons. Brandon Dubinsky's rookie year he was also 22 years old. He put up three straight 40+ point seasons and this year he put up a 50+ point season. Josh Bailey's age at the start of next hockey season: 22 years old.

If Bailey turns out to be as good as either Zajac or Dubinsky, would everyone here take that? If your answer to that is yes, I would say that I agree with you. Is it realistic to think that Bailey can be as good as either of those two players? Absolutely. Bailey can do good things on a hockey rink. But he has three things working against him:

1. They kept dicking around with him by shuffling him between center and wing.
2. He is inconsistent.
3. He isn't John Tavares.

I said this about Okposo about a month ago and I will say it again about Bailey. It is not this kid's fault that he was rushed. In many other organizations, this season or next season would have been his rookie year in the NHL. I wouldn't trade Bailey for a decent winger. And Bailey's regression this season should be a concern, but by no means is he ruined. Not yet anyway. But those are the reasons that we shouldn't trade him.

To an outside organization, Bailey has little value. If he had never played an NHL game and played a full season in Bridgeport this year, he probably would have put up 80-90 points and his value would be much higher than it is now. Anyway, Bailey will probably have Nino and either Comeau or PA as his wingers next season, and will benefit from that. I'm fairly confident you'll see at least 40 points out of Bailey next season.

Agreed. Bailey should actually center Okposo & Grabner next season. I'd actually be pleased to see a lineup more along these lines...

Moulson-Tavares- Nino (or Okposo)
Grabner- Bailey- Okposo (or Nino)
Comeau- Franz- Martin
someone not named Gillies- Konopka- Haley

I'll roll into next season with that forward lineup if we don't land an FA forward for first line.

We are likely looking at

Streit- ???
Hamonic - MacD
Eaton- Motta

depth- Jurcina, Wysart, Katic

for next season. I think DeHaan starts at the Bridge.

Your point about Bailey being jerked around is an excellent one and it is a reason why I don't have as much confidence in Cappy as I'd like. Anyone who gives Franz PP time on the Point :rofl: and second line time with his LIMITED offensive skills I question. Bailey has gotten to play with a rolling lineup of stiffs in his three seasons with us and never had a legit winger to play with. If the Isles are that determined to make Josh a wing, they should have moved him to first line and moved PA down. You don't take young talent and rush it...but we do. And if you choose to do that, you don't have it playing with a bunch of nothings and then act shocked when there isn't production.

jmho

I agree, except for playing Bailey with KO and Grabs. He had the chance to play with them when Frans got hurt, and the line was far less effective.
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aries44475
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Snowman39,Apr 15 2011
11:54 AM

I agree, except for playing Bailey with KO and Grabs. He had the chance to play with them when Frans got hurt, and the line was far less effective.

I agree here Snowy and this is what worries me a bit about Bailey....thought he was jerked around all season and played with stiffs. However when he was moved to that hot second line, they didn't really seem to generate much offense. Now take in that the 3rd line of Comeau, Joensuu and someone else started producing....just weird.
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stevedepot
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aries44475,Apr 15 2011
11:01 AM
Snowman39,Apr 15 2011
11:54 AM

I agree, except for playing Bailey with KO and Grabs.  He had the chance to play with them when Frans got hurt, and the line was far less effective.

I agree here Snowy and this is what worries me a bit about Bailey....thought he was jerked around all season and played with stiffs. However when he was moved to that hot second line, they didn't really seem to generate much offense. Now take in that the 3rd line of Comeau, Joensuu and someone else started producing....just weird.

That's the strange thing. Bailey tried to do too much with the puck while not keeping his feet moving.
We saw alot of giveaways from him playing right point on the powerplay too.
His confidence is shot and he's had a hard time finding his place on this team.

Too much talent and hockey sense to not have patience with, inspite of everything.

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Snowy
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aries44475,Apr 15 2011
11:01 AM
Snowman39,Apr 15 2011
11:54 AM

I agree, except for playing Bailey with KO and Grabs.  He had the chance to play with them when Frans got hurt, and the line was far less effective.

I agree here Snowy and this is what worries me a bit about Bailey....thought he was jerked around all season and played with stiffs. However when he was moved to that hot second line, they didn't really seem to generate much offense. Now take in that the 3rd line of Comeau, Joensuu and someone else started producing....just weird.

Odd to say this because our season was over, but Bailey probably felt some pressure. He needs to clear his mind this offseason and start fresh in September. As Steve says, Bailey brings too much to the table to lose patience with him. As I wrote above, some comparable local centers didn't even get to the NHL full-time until they were 22. Bailey's just getting there now. Still may take another season or two, but I feel that he will find a way to put it together.
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dragoneye
Kung Fu Hockey
stevedepot,Apr 15 2011
09:29 PM
IslandersWin86,Apr 15 2011
06:47 AM
Seems like we got a bunch of Mad Mike's when it comes to getting rid of Bailey.

When we say that Bailey is "not worth much" (paraphrasing), remember when he went down to Bridgeport, I think Botta wrote about how many phone calls Garth got about moving him. He's not done. He's going to get better, it's just going to take longer because he was rushed initially. We saw what he can do, he dominated a few games earlier this year, he dominated when he went to Bridgeport...it's just a matter of consistency and a mental component. We've heard since day 1 that his head is in the right place...he just needs to mature his game. He'll get there.

Great point 86!!!

Totally agree. Unlike Comeau, he is not reluctant to go into high traffic areas with the puck.
He may have made alot of mistakes this past year, but his head and unfortunately, his confidence is in the wrong place.

He has the hockey sense that is way better than alot of these young over hyped top 5 centers in upcoming draft. He can and should be our #2 center going forward.

He will be the #2 if he can prove he deserves it. He's in line for it so why not? If he pulls the Houdini act again next season though I think you need to trade him just to give the kid a fresh start.
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dragoneye
Kung Fu Hockey
Snowman39,Apr 15 2011
11:54 PM
Islander4cups,Apr 15 2011
08:57 AM
Snowman39,Apr 14 2011
10:33 PM
Jackace,Apr 14 2011
06:32 PM
Snowman39,Apr 14 2011
02:11 PM
puckhead,Apr 14 2011
12:20 PM
rifleman22,Apr 14 2011
11:44 AM
Package Bailey, Gervais and the pick and get a decent winger for JT and Matt.

Yup that's just what another team would give up.........a good winger for Bailey, Gervais and the pick :rolleyes:

Bailey has minimal value and Gervais has negative value. Is anyone here silly enough to think that we know how terrible Bruno is but NHL scouts don't? Nobody wants him. Nobody would want a guy like Hillen either. Our defense is HORRIBLE. The only defensemen we have that anyone would want is MacDonald, Hamonic, and Streit. Some of our AHL and junior prospects would have value too. Maybe, if we're lucky, we could throw a guy like Eaton in a deal as a throw in. That's a huge maybe.

Snowy- Rifle didn't say a dominant winger, but merely a decent winger. To give up a 22 year old that was chosen #9 overall 3 years ago plus the #5 overall pick is a lot to give up for a decent player. Obviously, adding Brutal to a trade package does nothing but unload dead weight from the Isles, but giving up the 5th pick plus Bailey better get us a player better than good.

What everyone's definition of "good" or "decent" players is up for debate. But I dont discredit that package because Brutal stinks. The other players IMO would balance out a decent player back coming back.

Yeah but Jack, Bruno is only going to be under contract to the Isles if they want him to be. He's an RFA who won't be qualified, IMHO. In fact, I've made that a guarantee in another thread. Time will tell if I have egg on my face. But as far as I'm concerned, he's already gone.

Now, about Bailey. When Travis Zajac came to the NHL as a 22 year old, he put up a 44 point season as a rookie, then regressed in his second year and put up 34 points. His third and fourth years he bounced back and put up two 60+ point seasons. Brandon Dubinsky's rookie year he was also 22 years old. He put up three straight 40+ point seasons and this year he put up a 50+ point season. Josh Bailey's age at the start of next hockey season: 22 years old.

If Bailey turns out to be as good as either Zajac or Dubinsky, would everyone here take that? If your answer to that is yes, I would say that I agree with you. Is it realistic to think that Bailey can be as good as either of those two players? Absolutely. Bailey can do good things on a hockey rink. But he has three things working against him:

1. They kept dicking around with him by shuffling him between center and wing.
2. He is inconsistent.
3. He isn't John Tavares.

I said this about Okposo about a month ago and I will say it again about Bailey. It is not this kid's fault that he was rushed. In many other organizations, this season or next season would have been his rookie year in the NHL. I wouldn't trade Bailey for a decent winger. And Bailey's regression this season should be a concern, but by no means is he ruined. Not yet anyway. But those are the reasons that we shouldn't trade him.

To an outside organization, Bailey has little value. If he had never played an NHL game and played a full season in Bridgeport this year, he probably would have put up 80-90 points and his value would be much higher than it is now. Anyway, Bailey will probably have Nino and either Comeau or PA as his wingers next season, and will benefit from that. I'm fairly confident you'll see at least 40 points out of Bailey next season.

Agreed. Bailey should actually center Okposo & Grabner next season. I'd actually be pleased to see a lineup more along these lines...

Moulson-Tavares- Nino (or Okposo)
Grabner- Bailey- Okposo (or Nino)
Comeau- Franz- Martin
someone not named Gillies- Konopka- Haley

I'll roll into next season with that forward lineup if we don't land an FA forward for first line.

We are likely looking at

Streit- ???
Hamonic - MacD
Eaton- Motta

depth- Jurcina, Wysart, Katic

for next season. I think DeHaan starts at the Bridge.

Your point about Bailey being jerked around is an excellent one and it is a reason why I don't have as much confidence in Cappy as I'd like. Anyone who gives Franz PP time on the Point :rofl: and second line time with his LIMITED offensive skills I question. Bailey has gotten to play with a rolling lineup of stiffs in his three seasons with us and never had a legit winger to play with. If the Isles are that determined to make Josh a wing, they should have moved him to first line and moved PA down. You don't take young talent and rush it...but we do. And if you choose to do that, you don't have it playing with a bunch of nothings and then act shocked when there isn't production.

jmho

I agree, except for playing Bailey with KO and Grabs. He had the chance to play with them when Frans got hurt, and the line was far less effective.

Grabs wasn't there for 2 games and was wiped out in one more from the birth of his son. Grabner is THE offense on that line, and if he isn't there or is burnt out then the line gets little just like before Grabner began scoring, regardless of Bailey of Nielsen centering. Isles minus Grabner is a much worse team. His value is huge.
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Snowy
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dragoneye,Apr 15 2011
02:07 PM
Grabs wasn't there for 2 games and was wiped out in one more from the birth of his son. Grabner is THE offense on that line, and if he isn't there or is burnt out then the line gets little just like before Grabner began scoring, regardless of Bailey of Nielsen centering. Isles minus Grabner is a much worse team. His value is huge.

Grabner missed the Devils and Rangers games because of the birth of his son. Nielsen got hurt in the Ranger game. Grabner returned for the next game, vs. Carolina, and played each of the final four games, centered by Bailey.
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3POTI
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okay snowy, so if you believe eventually paranteau will be playing with bailey next season..I only have this to say to all the PA bashers..when bailey is getting his 40-50 pts in the season..Will everyone now accept the fact that PA is the real deal? Just look at how tavares has done..all because of having another skilled offensive player.. :yes:
Today Is A Great Day To Be An Islander Fan!
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Snowy
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3POTI,Apr 15 2011
05:40 PM
okay snowy, so if you believe eventually paranteau will be playing with bailey next season..I only have this to say to all the PA bashers..when bailey is getting his 40-50 pts in the season..Will everyone now accept the fact that PA is the real deal? Just look at how tavares has done..all because of having another skilled offensive player.. :yes:

Parenteau definitely helped JT this year. I think he could also help Bailey. PA has his faults, but he also brings offense to the table. Until we get a better RW to play with Tavares, PA will be up with them.
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Rub Ur Ducky
4th line
Dont give up on Bailey. I think yr 3 is big for players,and Bailey wasnt near ready his 1st yr. So lets see what happens next season. I dont want them to trade him.
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rst033
4th line
Snowman39,Apr 16 2011
01:45 PM
3POTI,Apr 15 2011
05:40 PM
okay snowy, so if you believe eventually paranteau will be playing with bailey next season..I only have this to say to all the PA bashers..when bailey is getting his 40-50 pts in the season..Will everyone now accept the fact that PA is the real deal? Just look at how tavares has done..all because of having another skilled offensive player.. :yes:

Parenteau definitely helped JT this year. I think he could also help Bailey. PA has his faults, but he also brings offense to the table. Until we get a better RW to play with Tavares, PA will be up with them.

I think it was JT that helped PA not vice versa.

I would not give up on Bailey just yet patience my friends patience

but for next year would love to see

Moulson-Tavarez-Grabner
Comeau-Bailey-Okposo
Nino-Nielsen-PA
Martin-Konopka-Haley

Streit/Wishart
MacDonald/Hamonic
Jurcina/Martinek
Katic/Kohn

Dip/Montoya/Koskinan

IMO Paulin needs a full year at the AHL level

then you have your dark horses pushing to make the team Joensuu Rhak Ullstrom

I like what I've see from Wishart Katic would have loved to seen Kohn get the call he seems to the Dman we want rugged

i know there's not allot of new names on the my list but by just getting Streit Nino and Okposo back hopefully for a full year are huge additions.

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Overspeed
1st line
As long as DP is on the team, the team goes nowhere, even if he plays only 20 games..5 - 15 is one hell of a hole to dig out of again.
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Snowy
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rst033,Apr 16 2011
06:40 PM
I think it was JT that helped PA not vice versa.

It's fair to say that JT would help any linemate that he's ever had, has, or will have. Goes without saying. But to say that PA didn't help Tavares would be incorrect. PA is a pass first player, and was a pretty good feeder considering he had 30+ assists. Cannot say a player like Comeau would have been better because Comeau's first instinct is to skate in circles with the puck. If PA winds up on Bailey's wing, it will only be because somebody else stepped up and took his place away from him on the first line. Until somebody does that, PA is fine up there. That's a good problem to have.
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Bossy22
1st line
Why not go with Nino / Tavares / Okposo as our top line. Let them grow together, could be something really good.
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