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Random thoughts occuring out of the blue; Mostly show but books and fandom too
Topic Started: Sep 10 2016, 07:33 PM (34,087 Views)
tamjlee
Arms of the Woman He Loves
I thought about putting this in the season 6 episode threads but it accounts for two different episodes and it could get lost in the din.What I'm writing here can also be said (and probably has) in many different threads and posts throughout.Maybe it's already been discussed and I missed it, but maybe it hasn't and it's new.Either way by my starting a new thread these discussions can be seen in a new light and have a new audience (some of the episode threads are quite long and hard to pinpoint certain discussion topics).Since the title is "random thoughts", I think it's also appropriate to discuss blurbs from the books and the fandom in general.

So what are my thoughts.lol

I started a season 6 re-watch and even though I'm only on episode 4, a couple things have occurred to me in anticipation for when I come across them in their episodes.The first one is to do with Dany/Aerys and the wildfire and the second is to do with our favourite moment of season 6 (of course JB reunion).Again, apologies if these points had been mentioned at the time of the episodes airing.

Ok, I was thinking of the montage that Bran was shown that highlights Jaime killing the Mad King and his screaming of "burn them all".I recall that most of us discussed the inclusion of this as being an important hint either towards Bran learning the "why" of Jaime's king slaying or that it was a hint in how to fight the WW.But after just watching Dany come out naked after burning her enemies, I couldn't help but think that the show actually did it to highlight that Dany may actually be more like her dad than she would want.Or was it used to foreshadow Cersei.I can't help but think of Jaime saying how much the mad King enjoyed burning his enemies and how he expected to rise above the burning of Kings Landing as a dragon or as being "the Unburnt". Jaime thought it was his crazy talking but what if The Mad King somehow knew of this possibility of being fire retardant.Will Dany be saving them from the Mad Queen Cersei or just show her how it's really done.Will Dany be involved in any more burning of people and will we see her finally burn an innocent or someone that truly doesn't deserve it.Or will we see her change from righteous Victor as she watches them burn to someone who starts to get pleasure from the burning and the power it contains.Hmmmm

Now my second random thought is to do with the JB tent conversation.How much do we love that she said, " I know there is honor in you." How many of us cheered that and believe that it's this phrase which led Jaime to seek a reasonably peaceful solution to the siege.We also fantasized that Jaime thought about it while stuck listening to Frey compare their deeds together.But I was thinking that it's the beginning of that quote that may end up being the most important. It's the "you are a knight".We know that the word knight has very deep meaning throughout this story and it is a very loaded word with huge connotations both good and bad.It can be seen as an insult to some while it is lauded and galanized to others.To be called a knight by someone like Brienne has got to be the biggest compliment one can get.Earlier in their conversation, they are bickering about the seige in general and how it can be seen as dishonorable for the Blackfish to want to fight for his home.That is when Jaime puts an end to it by saying that they shouldn't argue politics.It's because Jaime knows that his views on politics more likely mirrors Brienne's but duty and house loyalty prevents him from thinking that.He says "I was sent here to deal with the Blackfish". By using the word sent he is telling Brienne that his role here is one of a soldier, that he is just following orders.By Brienne almost immediately reminding him that he is a knight, she is letting him know that she understands that he is there bound by duty but that his "knightly" ideals about honour and protecting the people could also find a place.I think she is letting him know that she knows his oaths are in conflict with his ideals and she understands.It's interesting re-watching Jaime's early Kings Landing scenes in season 6 without the stress of agenda and anticipation of the JC breakup and why the fuck it hasn't happened yet. Jaime isnt only trying to protect Cersei and Tommen, he is also trying to retain his knightly status.Jaime rescuing Margeary from her Walk of Atonement was extremely Knightly (he even rode a white horse) and Tommen using that act as the reason to strip him of his white cloak is beyond ironic.Jaime isn't just pissed that the HS won and got his clutches into Tommen, Jaime is also pissed that he failed once again, that he couldn't be the knight he dreams of being.Then Brienne is there calling him Ser and telling him she knows what kind of knight he is, no wonder he finally achieved some success.If this isn't built on in season 7, I will be devestated.

Edited by tamjlee, Sep 10 2016, 07:38 PM.
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Violet
Bath Steamer
This is totally random, but is Brienne's surname actually Tarth? In the books, I only see that she's referred to Brienne of Tarth and that her father is Lord Selwyn of Tarth.

In the show, Jamie does say, "Ah, Selwyn Tarth." But are they really the Tarths of Tarth?

Or is their surname something much more interesting, and something being withheld from the audience?

You know, something like KarTargaryen
Edited by Violet, Jan 27 2017, 02:13 PM.
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Quinn
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Director of HYPE
I don't think we've ever read/heard anything about her name apart from "Of Tarth," but it could well be in the medieval vein where the place is the official title and also the name, like Hugh de Courtenay and Agnes Courtenay, or the Delavignes, where it was originally de la Vigne and morphed into Delavigne.

So....mod/AU Brienne's name should be Detarth :-D
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december13
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:laugh:

Maybe Van Tarth? Or Tarthsdottir? Selwynsdottir?
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Violet
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I watched the Maiden and the Bear episode last night, and Qyburn also says "Lord Tarth."

So I guess they are the Tarths of Tarths after all. They must be a very old family if their island is actually named after them. Maybe with their great heighth, too, they date back to Fist Men/Andals and all that.
Edited by Violet, Jan 28 2017, 08:47 AM.
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mgsmurf
Almost a Knight
The Tatth family is old I think. They were the kings of their island before giving allegiance to the Storm kings that would become the lords of the stormlands. So of Tarth meaning from the ruling house from the island of Tarth. Although odd as Selwyn is often Lord Tarth and Brienne always of Tarth. But, shrug. Also, Tarth being such an old house I always see as extra pressure on Brienne to not fail the line.
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Violet
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mgsmurf
Jan 28 2017, 12:16 PM
The Tatth family is old I think. They were the kings of their island before giving allegiance to the Storm kings that would become the lords of the stormlands. So of Tarth meaning from the ruling house from the island of Tarth. Although odd as Selwyn is often Lord Tarth and Brienne always of Tarth. But, shrug. Also, Tarth being such an old house I always see as extra pressure on Brienne to not fail the line.
I can't help but notice that Brienne of Tarth has the same cadence and format as Joan of Ark. they better not have the same outcome though.
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Currawong
Not the Valonqar
Have sometimes wondered whether word cadence and rhythm was one reason she is 'Brienne of Tarth' and not ' Brienne Tarth'. But there are plenty of RL precedents for the pattern: there's not only Joan of Arc, but also people like Catherine of Aragon, William of Orange, and so on. If you look through the ancestry of English monarchs - Link - there are quite a number of women referred to as being "of" a House or place - Philippa of Hainault (wife of Edward III), Isabella of France, and heading into Wars of the Roses, we get Catherine of Valois (wife of Henry V), Margaret of Anjou (mother of Henry VII) and then Elizabeth of York.
Edited by Currawong, Jan 28 2017, 04:58 PM.
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Quinn
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Funny how the Anglicized nomenclature comprises the standard, even for continental academics when speaking in English. Joan of Arc versus Jeanne d'Arc, Catherine of Aragon versus Catalina de Aragon or d'Aragona. I really think GRRM was definitely going for a Joan of Arc parallel with Brienne, but subverting it by giving Brienne an actual story apart from her virtue and destiny of sacrifice. I think her ultimate end will either be to sacrifice for Jaime (sacrificing herself for a person completely associated with dishonor) or being made to abandon her "fate" of sacrifice in favor of something "smaller" like personal love.

Where am I even going with this anymore? I don't know.
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suile gorma
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Almost a Beauty
Hey all you lovelies just want to wish you all a very very late Happy New Year and I hope it's treating you all well!! I've been missing in action the past few months after a crappy spell of break up followed by getting run down and having weeks of catching every cold,flue & bug going unfortunately it carried on into January for me so between everything my J/B love completely came to a standstill and I'm only getting back to it now looks like I've loads and loads to catch up on :woot: also not all bad I finally over Christmas finished reading all the books :D

Just had a real random thought today and I'm really sorry if this has already been covered a million times but was just thinking okay in the books J/B are in denial over their feeling for each other especially I feel on Jaime's behalf but how aware do you think show Jaime/Brienne are of their feelings to each other.. We've had absolutely Dragonstone scenes between them from the get go which has only intensified as the season's have gone along and just from body language, to actions, to looks and hearteyes everything in my eyes screams "they are so in love with each other" but even though we've had things like Cersei asking Brienne straight out does she love him and with Jaime we've had "it's yours it will always be yours" and we've had both of them saying numerous goodbyes to each other like their heart's are about to break into a thousand pieces I still think they don't realise in their mind's that they are in love or what it is even their feeling. Jaime's only ever know what he thought was love through his twisted relationship with Cersei and Brienne's only known what she thought was love from her infatution with Renly after his one act of kindness.

Btw I just think how Dragonstone is the scene going to be when they do realise and all the dots join together that's why they respond this way to each other and they can finally give in and admit it's love.
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december13
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Dragon Charger
Getting run down? As in someone hit you with a car?!?! Or a different run down?

In any case I'm glad you're feeling great again and that you're back at the boards! Yay!!!

As for Jaime and Brienne? I'm with you - they do not realise the magnitude of their feelings, nor they realise "what" those feelings might be... It will be sooo rewarding when (if) the knowledge finally hits home. :laugh:
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Aerest
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HYPEkeeper
I think that show!Brienne knows (or at least suspects) her own feelings since Cersei asked her.
As for show!Jaime - he actually seems to be more aware of his feelings than in the books. I'd date him getting suspicious of himself at about gifting her Oathkeeper / Oathkeeper goodbye scene.
Both of them don't allow themselves to be in love and value their duties/alliances higher than their feelings, but I think that on a half-conscious level both of them are aware that they fell in love.
I doubt that they allow themselves to consider whether the feelings are reciprocated or not, though. Suppressing them is work enough.
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suile gorma
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Almost a Beauty
december13
Feb 5 2017, 01:00 PM
Getting run down? As in someone hit you with a car?!?! Or a different run down?

In any case I'm glad you're feeling great again and that you're back at the boards! Yay!!!

Thank you December <3 Haha no not run down by a car thank god it's kinda a saying we have in Ireland when your feeling tired & low energy and you haven't been taking proper care of your self and you start picking up loads of colds and flues your "run down" a bit like a battery that needs to be charged :laugh: We have some very strange way's of saying things :laugh:
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december13
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Dragon Charger
I know about the saying it's just... I mentioned somewhere in here that my uncle was in an accident (car hit him, he was in a coma for about 2 months or so), and unfortunately ever since then the first thing that comes to my mind when someone says they were "run down" is that they've been in a car accident or some such.

More than glad you were just low in energy!
Edited by december13, Feb 5 2017, 01:31 PM.
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Mikki
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ChillLord
Sorry to hear about your rough time, suile. I hope things get better.
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suile gorma
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So sorry to hear that december thats awful I hope your uncle's okay now?

Aerest I totally love that view yes that's really possible and I remember the first time seeing that scene and Jaime's face and thinking oh my god he's definately in love with her ( I was a show only girl first until after season five and I can remember one of their earlier scenes when Jaime's teasing her about Renly and she grabs his head & tells him "shut your mouth" I was like hold on a minute there's totally something between these pair and bare in mind I detested Jaime at this stage thought him full on baddie the chemistry was that good) but then after that things want to crap with his storyline so made me think yes he loves her but he doesn't realise it likewise with Brienne in season six after the tent scene and the Blackfish is calling her out on Jaime and she's "he's not my friend" it felt very school-yard denial where you like someone but you just won't admit it. I actually feel like Jaime's maybe slightly more aware of his feelings than Brienne so reverse of book.

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suile gorma
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Thank you Mikki <3 my new motto is onwards and upwards, well that and good riddance to bad rubbish :p
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dreadwulf
Ser Cleos
I definitely get the impression that Jaime is a lot more aware of his feelings than Brienne is of her own. She's in strong denial, but he knows what's up and feels guilty about it. After all, Show Jaime has no idea Cersei's been unfaithful. He's been loyal to her his whole life and never even considered another woman until now, and whatever this is with Brienne is, while not exactly cheating, definitely something Cersei would not be happy about. He knows enough to keep his distance and avoid any kind of temptation. Hence he's the one pacing around the red tent and putting tables in between them, while Brienne is consistently (if tentatively) approaching him.

buuuuuuut at the same time I don't think he's at all aware of Brienne's feelings for him. Another thing that's different on the show that their initial interactions were much more flirty on his part. One of the ways he tried to undermine her and escape when he was her prisoner was openly hitting on her, and it didn't work even a little bit. She showed no sign of finding him attractive at all. As much as his own feelings have developed I don't know that it would occur to Jaime that getting to know him better might have changed her mind as well. I feel like he's slotted her in a "would get a slap if I tried anything" category, much like what Nik has been quoted as saying about Brienne (and he is often speaking from what Jaime is feeling at that point in the story, so I tend to assume that's how he's playing it).

Poor Brienne has given up on the possibility of love entirely and would never imagine Jaime having any feelings for her, and probably considers any of her own feelings irrelevant and best ignored. :(
Edited by dreadwulf, Feb 9 2017, 08:22 PM.
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Olive
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dreadwulf
Feb 9 2017, 08:21 PM
I definitely get the impression that Jaime is a lot more aware of his feelings than Brienne is of her own. She's in strong denial, but he knows what's up and feels guilty about it. After all, Show Jaime has no idea Cersei's been unfaithful. He's been loyal to her his whole life and never even considered another woman until now, and whatever this is with Brienne is, while not exactly cheating, definitely something Cersei would not be happy about. He knows enough to keep his distance and avoid any kind of temptation. Hence he's the one pacing around the red tent and putting tables in between them, while Brienne is consistently (if tentatively) approaching him.

buuuuuuut at the same time I don't think he's at all aware of Brienne's feelings for him. Another thing that's different on the show that their initial interactions were much more flirty on his part. One of the ways he tried to undermine her and escape when he was her prisoner was openly hitting on her, and it didn't work even a little bit. She showed no sign of finding him attractive at all. As much as his own feelings have developed I don't know that it would occur to Jaime that getting to know him better might have changed her mind as well. I feel like he's slotted her in a "would get a slap if I tried anything" category, much like what Nik has been quoted as saying about Brienne (and he is often speaking from what Jaime is feeling at that point in the story, so I tend to assume that's how he's playing it).

Poor Brienne has given up on the possibility of love entirely and would never imagine Jaime having any feelings for her, and probably considers any of her own feelings irrelevant and best ignored. :(
I really dig this analysis, dreadwulf!

In their tent scene, Jaime seemed to be the one who wanted to talk about anything but politics. He opened his heart -- correction, GAVE his heart to Brienne in that tent, and she couldn't say or do anything other than remind him of their opposing sides and then storm out. But was she also reminding herself? I don't think the significance behind Jaime letting her keep the sword was lost on her; she knew, at least on some level, what Jaime was trying to tell her and it left her shaken. Hell, she was so shaken she was going to leave without another look or word! But no, she had to remember what she was there for, who she was fighting for, and who she would have to fight -- hence her final words to Jaime. She's stubbornly loyal that way. And, to me, Gwen played that whole scene beautifully. She had the face of someone who was clearly struggling with restraint (i.e. her Dragonstone chin wobbles, forehead creases). So, in that sense, Brienne also works to avoid temptation. If she stayed a second longer staring into his eyes, who knows what could have happened? (We know, though, right? ;) )

I agree with your take on Jaime's lack of awareness of how Brienne feels for him, and going against Nik is pretty damn hard. But if I take into account how I first viewed the Oathkeeper exchange in 4x04, my thoughts start to shift. When Brienne said she'd find Sansa for Lady Catelyn "and for you," I didn't see it any other way than Brienne revealing her love for Jaime in a veiled manner. The slight hesitation before she says those three little words, plus the lack of eye contact, said to me this was the closest she would get to telling him she loves him. And then Jaime responded with widened eyes and parted lips, which read to me that he understood somehow. He just couldn't voice it or do anything. Now that I think about it, perhaps this was Brienne's equivalent to Jaime's "It's yours" moment. One main difference between the two scenes is Jaime was able to look at her directly, whereas Brienne was too shy and afraid to see what was in his eyes -- and that may be because of what you said. She could never imagine Jaime returning her feelings, especially when he has his beautiful sister. I also can't leave out the moment she looked back at him on her horse. He appeared confused at first, but when she averted her eyes downward and turned back around, the confusion lifted and his face settled into a look of realization and sadness, like he knew she loved him. The whole "what could have been" was so evident here -- and Michelle MacLaren described it as such in the DVD commentary.

Overall, it's obvious the show has devoted more time to accentuating Jaime's feelings for Brienne. I do want more signs from Brienne, however. My theory is the showrunners believe the viewers have already gathered that Brienne does love Jaime, as was evident during her silent confession to Cersei at the Purple Wedding, and she subsequently buried that love because of their circumstances. The show included a talk between Brienne and Pod, revealing her past pain and insecurities that continue to shape how she lives her life. Her heart is guarded, and I suppose that talk was enough affirmation. Jaime will have to make the first move! I just hope Brienne will give the poor man a signal so he won't fear getting slapped :laugh: Though she is not Cersei, so I don't see Brienne slapping him.
Edited by Olive, Feb 9 2017, 11:18 PM.
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Violet
Bath Steamer
Did the Tower of Joy incident where Ned kills Arthur Dayne happen before or after the sacking of King's Landing?

Because of the sacking of King's Landing is after, what does Ned do with baby Jon in the meantime? Just leave him with the two nurses, whose names he doesn't even know? Leave him with Howland Reed?
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Mikki
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ChillLord
It's before.
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Violet
Bath Steamer
Thanks. So what does he do with Little Jon? And does Ashara fit into that?

Inquiring minds ...

When's the likely release date of the next book? Christmas?
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Mikki
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ChillLord
The sack was before. Ned didn't have Jon during the sack. Sorry.
Ashara committed suicide. What a useless character she was.
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Entropic Girl Reporter
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Not the Valonqar
Moving discussion of the HS's plans here.

I think it very likely that Kevan ensured Tommen would get rid of Jaime at that particular time so he wouldn't be around for Cersei's trial, and it was as much to protect him in case the HS sprung a surprise as anything else.

The HS has two terrific options. He has Lancel to confirm the regicide, which preserves Tommen's rule. Should Cersei refuse to repent in the manner Loras did and most likely join the Silent Sisters, the more damning charge of twincest, and thus Tommen's illegitimacy, comes into play.

Kevan would know everything the HS knows, because Lancel would've told him. Kevan would be able to predict the HS's possible plays, so Jaime being hundreds of miles away keeps him safe, just in case things go bad. He won't be there in the Sept ready to be arrested if a warrant goes out for his arrest for treasonous twincest.

I've wondered if perhaps Tommen was informed of some of this. The threat against Margaery is enough, true, but disallowing trial by combat for his mother...I wonder if at the very least the HS told him about the regicide, and that he would be laying that accusation against her. And maybe even hinted at the twincest. With an adultish Tommen, we have to consider that he must've heard those rumors, unlike child Tommen.
Edited by Entropic Girl Reporter, Feb 14 2017, 07:20 AM.
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koops
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Evenstar
Re: Jaime/Brienne and the awareness of their feelings on the show. I think I agree with what Nik said that at this stage they both must be aware that there's something going on and that they care about each other. I do think Jaime knows he loves her but is not comfortable with that because he is a loyal man and he feels like it's cheating on Cersei (and indeed, D&D said the undercurrents of his relationship with Brienne are uncomfortable to him - the irony, feeling uncomfortable about the one actual healthy love in his life) and I think Brienne knows she loves him but just sees no point in dwelling on it because of their situation, both political and personal.

I'm pretty sure they know the other cares about them, but might be uncertain about the extent of that affection. I can imagine Brienne not being so sure it's requited and I can imagine Jaime feeling the same because show!Jaime is actually far more open with his affection than show!Brienne. Which is why it always makes me roll my eyes when people say Brienne clearly loves him but he only sees her as a friend/role model, when, in fact, Brienne is a lot more guarded in whatever signals she gives Jaime whereas with Jaime they come out each and every way. If that doesn't say a lot about how people think the ugly chick can't get the hot guy, no matter the evidence to the contrary, I don't know what does.

And I also always try to keep in mind that whenever these two say goodbye, they think it's forever. They don't really have an expectation that they will see each other again and they have had, so far, commitments in opposite ends of Westeros. So in that situation the only logical thing to do is to suppress and try to move on. What I love about them is that they aren't the typical careless and selfish love story of the lovers who run away together, screw everything else, like Rhaegar and Lyanna or Robb and Talisa, but they are actually rational and responsible human beings who acknowledge the obstacles in the way and wouldn't compromise their honor and other people's lives and their own current relationship for their selfish desires (unlike Jaime and Cersei, too).

But once they're on the same side, and have no more reasons to part ways if they don't want to and they are free to make that call? I don't think it will take long at all for it to fall into place.
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Currawong
Not the Valonqar
Entropic Girl Reporter
Feb 14 2017, 07:17 AM
The HS has two terrific options. He has Lancel to confirm the regicide, which preserves Tommen's rule. Should Cersei refuse to repent in the manner Loras did and most likely join the Silent Sisters, the more damning charge of twincest, and thus Tommen's illegitimacy, comes into play.

Kevan would know everything the HS knows, because Lancel would've told him. Kevan would be able to predict the HS's possible plays, so Jaime being hundreds of miles away keeps him safe, just in case things go bad. He won't be there in the Sept ready to be arrested if a warrant goes out for his arrest for treasonous twincest.
Taking the second paragraph first ... I'm not sure that Lancel would have told Kevan very much about the HS plans. I was under the impression that there was a distinct coldness, if not an actual rift, between father and son there, and that Kevan was very anti his son for joining the Faith Militant. Not to mention Lancel's affair with Cersei.

If the J/C incest had been proven in some trial by the HS, therefore leaving Tommen as illegitimate, it makes you wonder just whom the HS would place on the throne. In the books, Stannis is still alive, but I can't see Stannis bowing meekly to someone like the HS. Which leaves ... ???? Jon Snow and Team Ice are not likely to allow the FM and HS to take control of things, and you wouldn't like the HS's chances against Dany and Team Fire! Dany is not exactly open to criticism even by people close to her. A person like (f)Aegon might listen to the HS and agree to certain aspects of their law and order plans, but if he was/is a true Targaryan, again I can't see him likely to cede a great deal of power to an armed and militant Faith.
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Currawong
Not the Valonqar
Random thought, prompted by posts of Maisie in Canada, supposedly filming with wolves.

What IS the role of the direwolves in GOT? Why the big deal about them, and why was it so important to have the Stark siblings find the litter? OK, they are very big, loyal and very protective of their masters/mistresses, and yes, a wolf is the Stark symbol, but is that all?

We know there have been filming issues with dogs/wolves, so to date we have seen relatively little of them. Four of the wolves are dead (Grey Wind, Shaggy Dog, Summer and Lady) leaving only Ghost, who is currently with Jon, and Nymeria, who is 'somewhere'. But why is it important for Arya to be reunited with Nymeria, which is what we assume from the reports of Maisie in Canada? Assassin Arya has done just fine so far by herself, so why does she need to reunite with Nymeria in S7, other than a nice feel-good moment. I'm fine with happy feel-good reunions with a character's pet dog/cat/horse/hamster/wolf/whatever, but GOT isn't going to spend all that money sending Arya to Canada just so she can give Nymeria a pat and remark on how much she's grown! :laugh:

Do the remaining direwolves have a critical role to play, and if so, what is it? Will it be taking out one of the Stark enemies, or will they play a critical part in the battleagainst the NK and Others?
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Violet
Bath Steamer
As we were talking about Aerys going made in the HS thread, I guess it’s time to reveal my craziest theory. Judge away. It got into my head and got stuck there, and I’m using it as my “working theory,” until or unless I see something that (probably rightfully) moves me off of it. And because it's not so much a "prediction," I didn't put it under the crack prediction thread. And I didn't want to muck up the HS thread with this tin foil-ery.

This is about possibly why Aerys, former best friend of Tywin Lannister, went mad.

Maybe it all goes back to Joanna Lannister. We have two sources who tell us that Joanna is the reason that Tywin smiles and she seems a positive force on him. Everyone seems to concede that Joanna and Tywin were a love match. But what do we know?

Pycelle is one of our sources, and he’s untrustworthy at best. Aunt Genna is the other, and I think she’s one of the most reliable narrators in the books. She knows that she is biased toward Tywin, and why, and it’s, in part, her ability to have that self-perception that makes all the more trustworthy. She too thinks that Joanna brought out Tywin’s best.

But we also know that Joanna once told a 7-year-old or younger Cersei that tears were a woman’s best weapon. Yikes. What a lesson to teach a girl. That tells me that Joanna was, at the very least, manipulative.

Jaime, oddly enough, shares no memories of her at all (just, in the show, that she was the first dead body he ever saw).

And we know there were rumors of a tryst between her and Aerys. We know those rumors were so strong that Queen Rhaelle used them as the reason (or a false excuse) to dismiss Joanna from her court. We’ve been told that Aerys and Joanna’s supposed tryst began at Summerhall on the night that Rhaegar was born.

We also know that Aerys and Rhaelle that night had a young and healthy baby, Rhaegar. And after that, they were cursed with miscarriages and babies dying in infancy. We also know that Joanna and the Princess Martell, Elia, Doran, and Oberyn’s mother, attended to Queen Rhaelle.

Now, we’ve been led to believe that this was likely a one-sided obsession. One where Aerys lusted after and made rude comments about Joanna. But if what was underlying those comments was a sense of entitlement born from a relationship or a bitter ex.

We also know that Aerys likely would have had Rhaegar marry a younger sister. A younger sister that, during Rhaegar’s lifetime, never came. We know that should Rhaegar not have a sister, that he would be forced to look outside his immediate family for a bride. And who would be the two best prospects? Either Joanna’s and Princess Martell’s daughter.

Admittedly, we know that Joanna was dismissed by Queen Rhaelle not long after Joanna’s marriage to Tywin. Yet, Queen Rhaelle and Aerys still remained unable to have children who survived. What we don’t know is when Princess Martell left Queen Rhaelle’s service as well. We know that she sailed with her children to Casterly Rock when Joanna was pregnant with Tyrion – a curious thing to do, Oberyn noted.

We know that Queen Rhaelle and Aerys finally had two more children who lived. One about 10 or 11 years younger than Jaime and Cersei, and the other born after Queen Rhaelle had fled to Dragonstone.

Aerys became convinced that someone was killing his children. And that seemed to lead him far down the road to madness. But what if he was right? What if Joanna and her friend, Princess Martell, hatched that plot and used their access to Queen Rhaelle all in the hopes of having one of their daughters marry Prince Rhaegar.

Craaa-zy, I know. But it's gotten inside my head like an ear worm.
Edited by Violet, Feb 22 2017, 07:24 PM.
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Violet
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Feb 22 2017, 03:43 PM
Random thought, prompted by posts of Maisie in Canada, supposedly filming with wolves.

What IS the role of the direwolves in GOT? Why the big deal about them, and why was it so important to have the Stark siblings find the litter? OK, they are very big, loyal and very protective of their masters/mistresses, and yes, a wolf is the Stark symbol, but is that all?

We know there have been filming issues with dogs/wolves, so to date we have seen relatively little of them. Four of the wolves are dead (Grey Wind, Shaggy Dog, Summer and Lady) leaving only Ghost, who is currently with Jon, and Nymeria, who is 'somewhere'. But why is it important for Arya to be reunited with Nymeria, which is what we assume from the reports of Maisie in Canada? Assassin Arya has done just fine so far by herself, so why does she need to reunite with Nymeria in S7, other than a nice feel-good moment. I'm fine with happy feel-good reunions with a character's pet dog/cat/horse/hamster/wolf/whatever, but GOT isn't going to spend all that money sending Arya to Canada just so she can give Nymeria a pat and remark on how much she's grown! :laugh:

Do the remaining direwolves have a critical role to play, and if so, what is it? Will it be taking out one of the Stark enemies, or will they play a critical part in the battleagainst the NK and Others?
At the risk of putting more tin foil on my head, and blaming everything today on Bran, I think that Bran sent them.

There are five Stark pups, and then a sixth, albino runt one, is found for Jon. There are two female pups and four male pups. It's very fated.

The direwolves can communicate with each other, when close enough by, and at least one knew that their "sister," Lady, was dead. They are more special than just being loyal pets. Nymeria quite clearly helps Arya's escape from Harrenhal in the books. Nymeria tracks down the three or four raiders sent by Bolton to track Arya down.

We know that at least two of the Lannisters take an instant dislike (well, admittedly even Old Nan and Robert dont' think they make good pets). I'm back to reading GoT again, and just last night I read a chapter where Tyrion is on the way to the wall with Jon and he approaches Jon to try to pat him on the back or show him some kindness like that, and Ghost tackles him and sits on him. And Tyrion says that there's something that he mislikes about Ghost. Something that gives him pause in more than a "Hey, that's a big dog" kind of way. Cersei is made nervous by them too.

So, are they nothing more than faithful super-animals sent to protect the Starks? I don't know for sure. But I have a feeling that they may even serve a greater purpose.

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Mikki
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That's an interesting theory about the unnamed Princess and Joanna causing Rhaella to have miscarriages. But we also know Aerys was batshit and raped Rhaella. Are you suggested Aerys was sane and not a rapist prior to that and that he eventually went insane?
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