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'A Game of Thrones' (book 1) re-read
Topic Started: Oct 22 2017, 11:43 AM (2,455 Views)
LadyCarmenSandiego
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Well, I open this new thread to share our opinions about the first book of 'A Song of Ice and Fire' saga.

We'll write about characters, quotes, theories... This thread is not books or show spoiler free, so be careful if you decide to read it.

Enjoy! :tarth: :lannister: :baratheon: :stark: :targ: :tully: :greyjoy: :bolton: :tyrell: :martell:
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LadyCarmenSandiego
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Now that I'm a little less busy than these past days, I'll quote your comments from the other re-read thread in this one. ^^

LadyCarmenSandiego
 
FIRST REFLECTION
When Robert's retinue arrives at Winterfell, the king asks Ned to lead him to the crypt to show his respects to Lyanna. Cersei protests and Robert shoots her a glance. I imagine it would be a threatening or angry one. After so many years and so many disrespectful things they have done to each other, she still feels quite jealous. Jaime takes her by the arm quietly after Robert's look to make her shut up. I imagine he will have intervened in a lot of other conflicts between the couple by now, but what does Jaime feel here? Isn't he a little jealous due to Cersei's comment? Jaime is a poor and nice guy who puts up with anything!

(In GoT, Eddard I)
Edited by LadyCarmenSandiego, Oct 24 2017, 01:49 PM.
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LadyCarmenSandiego
 
Jon sees Jaime in the evening at the banquet Ned throws in Robert's honour. Though Jaime is a member of the Kingsguard, he seems to be treated more as a Lannister. He doesn't show up along with the other kingsguards, but next to Tyrion.
Jon finds hard to look away from Jaime, because he's so handsome. It's acknowledged by men and women equally. Bright, beautiful. "That is what a king should look like", Jon thinks. But Jaime doesn't want to be a king at all. We'll know later that he sat on the throne when he killed Aerys, but wasn't interested on being the king. There's a lack of political ambition in his character that makes him look humble and likeable in my eyes.

(In GoT, Jon I)
Edited by LadyCarmenSandiego, Oct 24 2017, 01:48 PM.
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LadyCarmenSandiego
 
When Robert's retinue arrives at Winterfell, the king asks Ned to lead him to the crypt to show his respects to Lyanna. Cersei protests and Robert shoots her a glance. I imagine it would be a threatening or angry one. After so many years and so many disrespectful things they have done to each other, she still feels quite jealous.
Is it really jealousy, or is it the knowledge that Robert's breaking the protocol by his request and therefore publicly humiliates his wife, the Queen?
Instead of proper further greetings and settling in, a quick wash and changing of clothes with his lady wife at his side, he wants to visit the love of his youth - which everyone knows -, while Cersei is left outside with everyone else, to do whatever business.
It's extremely disrespectful towards her, and of course she minds.
Edited by LadyCarmenSandiego, Oct 24 2017, 01:47 PM.
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LadyCarmenSandiego
 
Yes! Of course he's humilliating her. Robert never paid too much attention to Cersei and he kept seeing his whores. It may not be jealousy, right, as you so thoughtfully point out. I never delved too much in Cersei and Robert's relationship. I just wondered how Jaime must be feeling about this whole situation. All his life at King's Landing, watching Robert take his sister from him, having her. And Cersei consenting because of her ambition... It's Jaime who takes her by the arm to stop her from making a scene. Is he content with his life? Of course not. That must be hard.
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Something I noticed in a re-reading is Jaime’s position relative to Robert’s physically abusing Cersei. When he smacks her in Ned’s bedchamber, Ser Meryn is standing outside. He doesn’t intervene. Robert yells for a guard, and THEN Ser Meryn comes in and, at Robert’s command, takes Cersei back to her bedchamber.

Then later, when Ned confronts Cersei about the twincest, she says “Jaime would’ve killed [Robert]” if he saw the bruise on her face. She thinks that’s because Jaime loves her so much, but now that I’ve read Jaime’s chapters in ASOS, I think it’s more because he feels so disgusted about allowing Aerys to abuse Rhaella. He’d rather die than stand aside while another king assaults the queen.

Also, in one of Sansa’s chapters, Robert gets drunk at a feast and makes a scene. Ser Barristan is there: does nothing. Renly is there: doesn’t do anything until after Jaime’s tried to intervene. When he does step up, it’s to give Robert another cup of wine. Jaime is, again, the only Kingsguard with the backbone to ask the king to behave himself. When he does so, he does it gently, and he still keeps his cool when Robert knocks him on his ass.
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LadyCarmenSandiego
 
AlysonM
 
I think it’s more because he feels so disgusted about allowing Aerys to abuse Rhaella. He’d rather die than stand aside while another king assaults the queen.

Good point, AlysonM, I think you're right. He might have been in love with Cersei, but Jaime simply can't stand abussing men. He's a good man.

- -

Jaime's conversation with Cersei in the broken tower shows he isn't interested in politics. He's irreverent in his comments and finds Cersei's rants and plans boring. At the end, when he pushes Bran off the window, he does it with loathing, but it isn't clear if he loathes the boy, the situation, his sister, himself or what he has just done. The sentence that defines him -"The things I do for love"- seems here so much different from the one in the show.

On another note, it isn't stated if Jaime gives Bran the shove with his right or left hand. I've read some people defend that one of the symbolic reasons that makes Jaime change his attitude in future books/episodes is because the hand he gets cut off is his right, the same hand he used to push Bran off -and the one he grabbed Cersei's heel with when they were born-, but now I know it isn't. Actually, in the show he uses his left.

(In GoT, Bran II)
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LadyCarmenSandiego
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It's in the bath with Brienne where Jaime says he used his right hand to push Bran. Not sure why the show changed it. Probably not enough forward thinking and just using the blocking that worked best with where the camera was set up. I also think it's clear he doesn't loathe Bran as a person, but the act he is about to perform in pushing Bran. Why he hates it - be it self loathing, directed towards Cersei, or the situation itself of being caught, is the part that is uncertain.
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LadyCarmenSandiego
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LadyCarmenSandiego
 
Thanks for pointing that out, FairladyZ2005! I didn't re-read the bath part yet, but I trust you. So then the symbolic maiming works not only for his relationship with Cersei and his slaying Aerys, but for his relationship with Bran. This is interesting. :)
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FairladyZ2005
 
Aerys, Bran, Cersei - he ties all three together. The exact quote:

"Does the sight of my stump distress you so?" Jaime asked. "You ought to be pleased. I've lost the hand I killed the king with. The hand that flung the Stark boy from that tower. The hand I'd slide between my sister's thighs to make her wet." He thrust his stump at her face. "No wonder Renly died, with you guarding him."

And we all know what Brienne does next. :$

Enjoying your re-read btw.
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LadyCarmenSandiego
 
Amazing, FairladyZ2005. It makes so much sense. Thank you so so much for searching for the quote to post it here. Very enlightening. ^^
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I had put aside the books, telling myself that I wouldn't look at them again unless and until George finishes the next one.

But ..... I'm tempting to re-read them, having taken a break and with a (hopefully) fresh eye.

Such the dilemma.
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LadyCarmenSandiego
 
Violet
 
I had put aside the books, telling myself that I wouldn't look at them again unless and until George finishes the next one.

But ..... I'm tempting to re-read them, having taken a break and with a (hopefully) fresh eye.

Such the dilemma.

I understand you. I decided to re-read them just because I wanted to rediscover Brienne and Jaime's relationship. The first time I read them it took me a while to realise these two could be a thing, so now I want to read every single line knowing that there's something very special behind every single one of them. Not trying to convince you, though. :yes:

- -

When we start reading ASoIaF for the first time, we trust Ned Stark (at least, it's what happened to me). We read his POV and see that he's honourable, a loving husband (except for that supposed affair he had 14 years ago), a good father. He's introduced as a hero. Bran admires and respects him. Jon wants to please him at all costs. We don't think he could be mistaken in his judgements. But it's Robert -drunk, whoring, lazy Robert- who might have been right in his opinion about Jaime. "Jaime was all of seventeen, Ned. Scarce more than a boy". Robert proved to be more humane here than Ned Stark, who judged a teenager too hardly (a teenager who did a great and brave service to everyone). Truth is Ned was only twenty, a very young man, as well, but he never changed his idea of what happened at King's Landing. On the contrary, he seems to have nurtured his ill will towards Jaime over the years.

(In GoT, Eddard II)
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LadyCarmenSandiego
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Yay, another re-reader! I've started a leisurely re-read myself, a couple of weeks ago (at Chapter 36, Daenerys IV now -- though to be honest, I'm stuck at Chapter 35, Eddard IX, but more on that later...). I think, it's my third read through, but I definitely skipped chapters on my second, so not sure, if it counts.

It feels very, very different to reading it for the first time. I do enjoy noticing the little bits, like that thought of Jon's, "This is what a king should look like." -- auspicious, is it not?
But overall a feeling of IDK... melancholy?... nostalgia?... dominates. Sooo many promising avenues that have ended in a, well, dead end.

My main example so far would be the relationship that develops between Tyrion and Catelyn, on the road to the Vale. Sorry, I'm veering off-JB here, but I really like the grudging respect and the small level of reluctant trust they come to hold for each other, in spite of their very real antagonism. How Catelyn comes to realise that she's made a horrible mistake, but is, due to her station and her familial duties and, simply, circumstances, completely unable to rectify her decisions. How Tyrion, understandably, hates her guts and then finds himself swinging an axe at her hill tribe attacker! What a brilliant moment that was!
And now? Now we have UnDeadCat prowling the Riverlands and Tyrion abusing whores in Essos. *sigh*
Obviously, it's an important set up in order to have Catelyn decide to send Brienne and Jaime on their way (putting her trust mainly in Tyrion who'd given his word to exchange her girls for his brother), but IDK... that's not enough for me?
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LadyCarmenSandiego
 
But it's Robert -drunk, whoring, lazy Robert- who might have been right in his opinion about Jaime.

Wow, I like this observation. A lot! :-)
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LadyCarmenSandiego
 
Quaesitrix
 
My main example so far would be the relationship that develops between Tyrion and Catelyn, on the road to the Vale. Sorry, I'm veering off-JB here, but I really like the grudging respect and the small level of reluctant trust they come to hold for each other, in spite of their very real antagonism. How Catelyn comes to realise that she's made a horrible mistake, but is, due to her station and her familial duties and, simply, circumstances, completely unable to rectify her decisions. How Tyrion, understandably, hates her guts and then finds himself swinging an axe at her hill tribe attacker! What a brilliant moment that was!
And now? Now we have UnDeadCat prowling the Riverlands and Tyrion abusing whores in Essos. *sigh*
Obviously, it's an important set up in order to have Catelyn decide to send Brienne and Jaime on their way (putting her trust mainly in Tyrion who'd given his word to exchange her girls for his brother), but IDK... that's not enough for me?

I like that GRRM has created so many characters who are essentially good. There are some mad and bad ones as well, of course, and I enjoy their role in the story equally, but the good ones are precious. They are good, but make a lot of mistakes. Some of them have their paths crossed at some point, and traditions/families make them enemies, but then they start to know each other and things change between them (sometimes it becomes love, some other times it just turns into pure respect or admiration). That's what happens with Cat/Tyrion, Brienne/Jaime, Jon/Ygritte, Jon/Mance, Jon/Tormund, Hound/Sansa... And so many others that I would have to remember. Some of those relationships have ended in a dead end, as you pointed out so wisely, Quaesitrix, but I suppose that happens in real life as well...

As I was saying, this kind of relationship is only possible between open-minded and/or good characters. The bad ones never allow themselves to form real bonds, not even with their closest ones. And this more or less applies to Ned Stark, who doesn't bother to have second thoughts on people. I'm not saying that Ned is a bad person (and he genuinely loves his family and friends, so he does form bonds), I like his character, but he was too narrow-minded. He judges people right away when he thinks they're below his honour standards and doesn't bother to ask. He doesn't listen to more experienced people who try to warn him...

There are so many interesting characters forming bonds. I'm enjoying so much this re-reading. And I look forward to coming across Jaime's and Brienne's POV chapters.
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LadyCarmenSandiego
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Violet
 
Quaesitrix
 
LadyCarmenSandiego
 
But it's Robert -drunk, whoring, lazy Robert- who might have been right in his opinion about Jaime.

Wow, I like this observation. A lot! :-)

I noticed that, too, on my second read through. Robert, now the drunkard, but then the battle-minded leader, saw Jaime for the young man that he was.

I'm still convinced that Ned had blinders on for a reason, and that reason will show him to be an even greyer character than he is to date. He was in no place to judge Jaime, but he did. Like I've said before, had Jaime not already killed Aerys, what was Ned prepared to do? Kill Aerys. He sure wasn't bursting in the throne room on his horse in order to start a parade.

At the very least, Ned owed Jaime a "what happened here?" Instead, he served as jury, judge, and nearly executioner (or, rather banisher to the Wall should he have gotten his way) without ever once asking Jaime if there were extenuating circumstances.

The same thing holds true as to the very first major action we see Ned take -- beheading the deserter. Had Ned taken the the boy's claims seriously there is at least a chance that Westeros could have united and joined forces -- the brains of Tywin & Davos & Stannis, etc. and the strength of all the seven armies -- to address the White Walkers. Instead, Ned acted hastily and in a black and white matter, and the rest became history.



Violet
 
LadyCarmenSandiego
 
Yes! Of course he's humilliating her. Robert never paid too much attention to Cersei and he kept seeing his whores. It may not be jealousy, right, as you so thoughtfully point out. I never delved too much in Cersei and Robert's relationship. I just wondered how Jaime must be feeling about this whole situation. All his life at King's Landing, watching Robert take his sister from him, having her. And Cersei consenting because of her ambition... It's Jaime who takes her by the arm to stop her from making a scene. Is he content with his life? Of course not. That must be hard.

I would argue that while Cersei consented to the marriage and the wedding night because of her ambition and desire to be queen, she didn't consent to Robert's sexual assaults after that point in time (it would be too white washing to call them sexual advances -- they've been presented as assaults).

I did note, too, on my second read through that Jaime served as mediator on more than one occasion -- both at Winterfell by guiding Cersei away and breaking up a potential fight and at the fairgrounds (I think?), where Robert knocked Jaime down. I do think that Jaime felt anger and frustration on behalf of his sister. I also would argue that Jaime led Cersei away not just to prevent Cersei from starting a scene but to prevent Robert from making things worse as well. Cersei had the tart tongue, but Robert was the one prone to violence when unhappy things weren't going his way. As much as Cersei claimed to Ned that Robert wouldn't have dared hit her less Jaime would kill him, Jaime was on the receiving end of Robert's violence, so he knew the potential was there. I think at least part of his defensive measures were to prevent that from occurring.

One thing I always wondered of the early chapters of GoT -- why did GRRM have Jaime be humiliated by having him stuck inside his helmet during the jousting. Did he mean to have the reader laugh at Jaime as well -- only to have the reader re-think that moment when all is said and done and Jaime is reflected as the noblest, bravest, most heroic knight there ever was? Was it to show that Jaime was always fallible and not as untouchable as those who envied him would make him out to be?
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LadyCarmenSandiego
 
Violet
 
One thing I always wondered of the early chapters of GoT -- why did GRRM have Jaime be humiliated by having him stuck inside his helmet during the jousting. Did he mean to have the reader laugh at Jaime as well -- only to have the reader re-think that moment when all is said and done and Jaime is reflected as the noblest, bravest, most heroic knight there ever was? Was it to show that Jaime was always fallible and not as untouchable as those who envied him would make him out to be?

Wow, I'll need to re-read that part carefully when I reach it. I didn't remember. I think you might be right, Violet.
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LadyCarmenSandiego
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Ellethom
 
What I also loved in that tourney scene is before Jaime is defeated, he takes out the brother or cousin of Brienne's first betrothed. The one that died as a child.

He also of course, knocks the GBS of Justice on Connington, Brienne's second betrothed.

Not sure if he will get to serve up some justice on old Wagstaff, but so far, its Jaime Lannister vs. the World.

I love these damn books, I may have to join you for a fourth read through!
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LadyCarmenSandiego
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ballade
 
I think it was partly just to show what an asshole Robert was. And partly to show that whole “Lannisters don’t like to be laughed at” which ... Jaime kind of isn’t a part of really. Cersei is, and Tyrion’s (in the books) partially kills Shae out of spite for how she mocked her pet name for him (my lion of Lannister.) Of the three siblings, Jaime is the least hung up on his Lannister pride; maybe being called “the Kingslayer” for sixteen years has made him more thick-skinned.

And ugh, I SWORE I wouldn’t reread until there was a publication date for WoW but I’m so tempted. Say, would anyone be interested in a group reread to make the hiatus go faster?
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LadyCarmenSandiego
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From Ned’s POV, Jaime had stood there and done his duty for nearly two years, and that duty had included watching Aerys kill Rickard and Brandon. Now, as far as Ned knows, for no particular reason, Jaime decided to turn on Aerys....just as Tywin was entering the city.

Ned likely has a lot of survivor’s guilt, which makes him extra unreasonable. And Ned had never been placed in any situation where he had to make difficult choices, so he was judging from that privileged position.

The thing about the North and the Stark’s ideas about honor and the whole Personal Responsibility thing (the man who passes judgment swinging the sword for example) is that it really only works in the North, but Northerners have to leave the North to realize it. It’s the same reason you find a lot more Libertarians in Wyoming than in Boston. It’s easy to forget about how humanity impacts humanity when you live in an unpopulated area and your closest neighbors are miles away. If you grew up in a city you get that other people’s lives and conditions and choices impact you. If you grew up in geographical isolation what you imagine is your Rugged Individualist Nature making you like, less dependent upon other people, is just an accident of geography. If the Starks had to administer *cities* and had a large population to deal with they’d have to empower their bannermen or officials to swing swords too.

So Ned was bringing that naive Northern conviction that in a given situation HE would of course be able to adhere to his own code of honor. He’d never had humanity knock him on his ass and force him to choose between dishonorable choices. For him that happened at the Tower of Joy. But it didn’t change him, because he got to go home and not deal with difficulties again. He never even had to deal with Cat. He just showed up with Jon and Cat’s upbringing as a lady and her remaining discomfort with the newness of marriage to a stranger she didn’t quite understand yet meant she never called him out about it so Ned just ignored the issue.

Jaime had been dealing with snakes his entire life. He grew up in an abusive household - even if one doesn’t perceive Cersei as abusive to Jaime, he had to witness his father and sister abusing his brother constantly, and it is abuse to force a child to witness abuse of others. He had to deal with more difficulties in Crakehall’s service - nastier people, bullies - than Ned ever had to isolated first at Winterfell and later with Jon Arryn. Jaime just grew up with more variables to cope with. Ned had few.

Everything about Jaime’s life before the Kingsguard conditioned him to be a person who could stand by and watch abuse. Tywin and Cersei had been telling him abuse of the weak was okay for years. It’s remarkable that at Crakehall’s he still had the instinct to protect the weak from the likes of Merrett Frey. At court, he had older Kingsguard telling him what the king was doing was okay. When did Ned ever have to hear that his instinct for justice was bad? When did Ned EVER have to doubt himself? Ned was lucky. Jaime had been taught to doubt his judgment his entire life and it is remarkable he was finally able to listen to himself and take out Aerys.

Robert found himself head of his family fairly young and under traumatic circumstances. And Robert has a number of personal weaknesses. Robert is just much better equipped to be forgiving of failings in others than Ned is. In some ways he’s much more mature. By the time one is in one’s mid thirties with children in their teens, one should be able to look back on incidents from one’s own youth and see those involved as kids. Robert can do that. He looks back and remembers that Jaime was 17. It’s actually a bit weird for a man Ned’s age to not be able to do that. Maybe because he was thrust into a role and life he was never really right for, he is kind of stuck as a teenager on the inside, like Jaime is. He never had to man up and be honest with Catelyn. He just stuck his head in the sand.
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LadyCarmenSandiego
 
Ellethom
 
What I also loved in that tourney scene is before Jaime is defeated, he takes out the brother or cousin of Brienne's first betrothed. The one that died as a child.

He also of course, knocks the GBS of Justice on Connington, Brienne's second betrothed.

Not sure if he will get to serve up some justice on old Wagstaff, but so far, its Jaime Lannister vs. the World.

I love these damn books, I may have to join you for a fourth read through!

Feel free to join me in a re-read! I'm so happy that you guys are taking the time to share with me some things you noticed. It makes the re-read far more enjoyable. :yes:
I hope Jaime has the chance to come across that Wagstaff as well. "Jaime the Punisher". ;)


LadyCarmenSandiego
 
ballade
 
I think it was partly just to show what an asshole Robert was. And partly to show that whole “Lannisters don’t like to be laughed at” which ... Jaime kind of isn’t a part of really. Cersei is, and Tyrion’s (in the books) partially kills Shae out of spite for how she mocked her pet name for him (my lion of Lannister.) Of the three siblings, Jaime is the least hung up on his Lannister pride; maybe being called “the Kingslayer” for sixteen years has made him more thick-skinned.

And ugh, I SWORE I wouldn’t reread until there was a publication date for WoW but I’m so tempted. Say, would anyone be interested in a group reread to make the hiatus go faster?

That group reread would be amazing, lol! I read slowly because I'm trying to read the books in English this time (my first was in Spanish) and I often need to look for some expressions and original names, but it would be great to be able to share our opinions with "The ASoIaF Book Club". :D ;)

I think you are so right in your analysis of every Lannister. Jaime turns out to be the humblest one of them. And he quickly gave up his rights as the heir of Casterly Rock when he joined the Kingsguard. He preferred love over politics. I really like this guy.


LadyCarmenSandiego
 
Entropic Girl Reporter, I'm clapping hard at your post. What a thoughtful analysis!
Edited by LadyCarmenSandiego, Oct 24 2017, 02:28 PM.
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Alright, that's all. The rest of the posts talked about this new thread we were going to start. Let's the fun begin... when November comes.
Edited by LadyCarmenSandiego, Oct 24 2017, 02:29 PM.
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I know you all must be partying hard. ^^ But if I remember correctly, we'll be starting the re-read tomorrow. :)
Edited by LadyCarmenSandiego, Oct 31 2017, 05:17 PM.
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Well, I resumed my re-reading. I don't know if any of you started as well! What I realised is that I can't stick to only two chapters a week. :no:

- -

Bran is dreaming when he's unconscious. There's a voice talking to him. It comes from a three-eyed crow and tells him to fly. This voice didn't make it into the show (at least, I don't remember it). Is Three-Eyed Raven Bran talking to kid Bran or is it the past Three-Eyed Raven who's trying to lead Bran's steps towards him? I don't know exactly how this power works, but we know Bran can change things in the past (Hodor). Just in case it is future Bran who's speaking to his younger self, did he use his influence before, for example, to make Jaime push him off the window? I don't know if the Three-Eyed Raven can speak inside no-greenseers' minds, but don't you think future Bran could have affected Jaime's decision by using kid Bran as a catalyst? I think we've discussed this before somewhere. And I remeber someone said that it's a noise what makes Cersei lift her head and look at Bran when he's in the window. But I wonder about Jaime here.
It's funny, because I remember Gwendoline hinting about that in one of her interviews with Nikolaj this summer, but I think it was her ASoIaF geek self talking. She might have read it somewhere (here?? :roll: No, just kidding)

(In AGoT, Bran III)
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LadyCarmenSandiego
Nov 4 2017, 04:54 AM
I remember Gwendoline hinting about that in one of her interviews with Nikolaj this summer, but I think it was her ASoIaF geek self talking. She might have read it somewhere (here?? :roll: No, just kidding)


JBO? Indeed, where else, Carmen!?? :laugh:
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FairladyZ2005
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If the time traveling Bran theory is true, I don't think future Bran influenced Jaime by messing with his head in any way. It's more likely future Bran have past Bran a nudge to climb that particular tower that day and therefore made sure past Bran was in the right place at the wrong time.
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Violet
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Is there where we're doing the re-read of two chapters a week, starting Nov. 1st?

If so, here's my thoughts (and it includes spoilers from the rest of the books and show).

My big takeaway from the prologue and first two chapters is the contempt that GRRM has for the idea of entitlement. Waymar Royce was given command of that excursion solely because of his noble birth. And he botched the mission badly. The most seasoned ranger should have been put in command. Birthright does not equate to leadership. This bodes poorly for Ms. “Rightful Heir of the Throne, etc. etc.” Daenerys.

“The Others said something in a language that Will did not know.” Contrary to what D&D said in an interview, the Others are not just death. They are a community. They have a culture and a common language.

It's already been mentioned here, but nevertheless I’m picking up to the references of “dancing” meaning fighting. How does that impact on Jenny “dancing with her ghosts” from Jenny’s song? Is Jenny a fighter?

Things we already knew, but they’re worth mentioning all the same. A chill in the air precedes the Others. And the Others’ swords splinter and twist normal steel. Special steel is needed to fight them *cough. Cough.*

Interesting that Jory and another – unidentified – man spoke of the direwolves being bad luck before they were “born with the dead.” I know many are attached to the direwolves, but I’m wondering if they will turn out to be more villain than hero. Also, only ghost had its eyes opened. “Bran thought it curious that this pup alone would have opened his eyes while the others were still blind.” Will that be a metaphor for Jon being the only one to “see” something? Even with Bran being the 3-eyed raven?

I love this passage, “If you would take a man’s life, you owe it to him to look into his eyes and hear his final worlds. And if you cannot bear to do that, then perhaps the man does not deserve to die.” I think this will become important. Tyrion, for instance, did not do this when he killed Shae. Nor did Arya with Meryn Trent. I still think Tyrion will learn that Shae said what she did at the trial because she was trying to save Tyrion. Perhaps Tywin told her that he would send Tyrion to the wall. I think we’ll learn – and Tyrion will learn – what a monster he is.

I also prefer that part of Ned’s “lesson” more than the physical aspect that the executioner needs to actually wield the ax. That sentiment now strikes me as sexist – though admittedly it didn’t when I first read or heard it. But I ran into a bunch of Dany fans who were justifying Dany’s use of her dragon to burn the Tarlys alive because that was her executioner’s tool. They were buying into the idea of Ned’s statement being a universal truth, and Dany using her dragon was her abiding by that truth (which meant that she was still all glittery and perfect). They really went to town on putting Dany above Sansa because Sansa used Arya to as her executioner while Dany used her dragon. Putting aside all the obvious faults of that logic, it did get me thinking. While I understand that a person ordering an execution should not be detached from the act, I don’t think that responsibility or moral obligation creates a requirement that the judge be the one to physically perform the act. Otherwise, it brings “might” into play when serving as a judicial arbiter. Robb, Jon, Theon (though barely), Jaime (with both hands, anyway and perhaps with just one), and Ned could all behead a man. But the fact that Catelyn, Olenna, Sansa, Margaery, or Dany could not should not prevent them from being a position of judgmental authority. I think it far more important to face the man, and hear him out, rather than be the one to swing the ax.

Finally it was interesting to have such an early mention of the Isle of Faces and its godswoods. Put a pin in that. For the books at least, though not the show. But those godswoods may into play in the show endgame, all the same.
Edited by Violet, Nov 5 2017, 06:49 PM.
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Currawong
Not the Valonqar
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I think it far more important to face the man, and hear him out, rather than be the one to swing the ax.
I agree Violet, and those sentiments are definitely interesting when it comes to Show Brienne and the way she dealt with Stannis. She charged him with killing Renly (and whether or not Renly was the rightful king, he was Stannis's younger brother) and she then asked if Stannis had anything further to say. He said no, just do your duty, and so she did.

As far as Sansa, Arya and LF go, Sansa did give LF a chance to say his piece: she levelled the charges against him, and LF essentially had nothing to say other than his obvious lies, after which he was reduced to grovelling. Sansa looked LF straight in the eye during the process, so she totally lived up to her father's admonition to Bran. I'm not sure that Ned himself lived up to his own words though, as clearly he was not prepared to really 'listen' to what the deserter had to say. He went through the formalities, but I had the impression that they were indeed just formalities for him and that he had already made up his mind about guilt. The guy had deserted the NW and the penalty was death, so Ned wasn't really interested in hearing the truth. I feel that if Stannis had said something in his defence to Brienne, she would have genuinely listened to him, even if she still subsequently found him guilty of using dark magic to murder Renly.
Edited by Currawong, Nov 5 2017, 08:59 PM.
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Violet
Bath Steamer
I agree with your post completely, Currawong.. I think Ned was going through the motions of hearing the man. It was a formality to him.

I don't think Jon would have treated what the man said as a formality. I think he would have investigated his story first. It might not have changed his mind in the end. But at least the WW threat would've been taken more seriously.
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