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'A Game of Thrones' (book 1) re-read
Topic Started: Oct 22 2017, 11:43 AM (2,459 Views)
FairladyZ2005
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What I find interesting is that it is assumed that the deserter fled because he saw WW, but I don't see any direct evidence of that in the books. Did the show make a connection there where the books didn't? I can't remember. Or is this just a false fan assumption that Ned "didn't listen to the WW threat when he heard it" ignoring that if deserter really did want people to listen to him, he didn't even bother to warn anyone at Castle Black when he fled.

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Violet
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FairladyZ2005
Nov 5 2017, 11:03 PM
What I find interesting is that it is assumed that the deserter fled because he saw WW, but I don't see any direct evidence of that in the books. Did the show make a connection there where the books didn't? I can't remember. Or is this just a false fan assumption that Ned "didn't listen to the WW threat when he heard it" ignoring that if deserter really did want people to listen to him, he didn't even bother to warn anyone at Castle Black when he fled.

Any evidence? I can see how GRRM left the tiniest bit of a gap, and forced the reader to connect the dots. But I see little reason for not connecting them as most have, and as was shown expressly and plainly in the show.

Jon comments that Gared wasn't so much brave as "dead from fear." There's also mention of questions being asked and answers given, but that Bran couldn't remember much of what was said. That is interesting, because if the man had talked of WW creatures and zombies, one would think that might have made a big impression on Bran.

I never faulted Gared for running instead of stopping at Castle Black. I took it that he was in shock and suffering from PTSD, and could only focus on getting as far away from the creatures as possible.

Even if Gared was inarticulate with his answers, his presence, and whatever gibberish he had said should have put Ned on notice. Until they figured out why Gared had run, he was more valuable alive than dead. But Ned placed a higher value on a black & white application of his rules. Ned had long settled on the idea that not immediately executing deserters served as some sort of incentive for future deserters. As a result, valuable time was lost in trying to address the WW.
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Currawong
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Quite right, Fairlady :) I think that the show drew the connection very clearly so as to set the scene for the menace of the Others right from the start. Having gone back and re-read the book again, I still think that Ned didn't really listen to the deserter. He tells Bran that deserters from the NW are dangerous because they know their lives are forfeit if recaptured, and so they will not shirk from any crime. Which to me still seems as though Ned had already made up his mind, no matter what the man had seen or what his reasons for desertion might have been. Book Bran remembers questions and answers, but not the substance of them, and I don't think we ever do find out why the man deserted the NW. But to me it was stil notable that Ned didn't tell Bran that he should really listen to an accused person before passing judgment, and that it would be wrong to leap to a hasty judgment. What if there were very good reasons for that person's actions?

In both book and show, Ned's whole focus (and hence Bran's remembrance of the incident) was on making sure that Bran understood his mantra that the person who passed judgment had to personally carry out the execution. Ned was not explaining the need for ensuring a fair process to ensure that Justice was truly being done in terms of assessing whether the person actually had a perfectly reasonable excuse for their action(s) i.e. hearing their story before passing judgment. Indeed, Ned didn't seem interested in that aspect at all. The accused was a NW deserter, who by Ned's definition are all desperate criminals! Ned wasn't interested in "justice" or a fair hearing - he was simply emphasising the process to be followed when executing someone. Show and book went about it in slightly different ways, but they were consistent in terms of Ned's attitude.

ETA: One other aspect struck me again from the book - Theon's contemptuous and disrespectful attitude. Bran is focussed on all the blood, how much of it there was and how it soaked into the snow. But when the deserter's head rolls on the ground, it bounces near Theon's feet. And Theon " laughed, put his boot on the head and kicked it away." Jon mutters that he (Theon) is an ass, but not loud enough for Theon to hear. And later on, Theon is very scornful about the white pup which Jon himself finds and adopts. RIght from the start, Theon Greyjoy is not a nice person at all. TBH, I had almost forgotten how much I have always disliked him until I re-read that chapter in Book 1!
Edited by Currawong, Nov 6 2017, 01:22 AM.
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Entropic Girl Reporter
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While y’all are rereading pay attention to the descriptions of the Others. There’s an Old Nan monologue to Bran that is suspicious to me. It almost sounds like she is describing two different types of beings, and George kind of has her correct herself on the naming, which is an authorial trick to get the reader to pay attention.

Why do the Others and WW need two different names? Maybe because they’re not actually the same thing. Maybe the WW are descended from the turned men, and the Others are something else entirely, the actual ice sidhe George described once in a letter to someone. The beings we see in the AGOT prologue are described as having pale flesh. George describes the Others as sidhe made of ice.

You know how Jon infiltrates the wildlings and in doing so kind of becomes one? He manages to not go full Colonel Kurtz of course and take over as their king. Thematically I’m pretty sure conscientious Vietnam objector, broken man monologue writing GRRM is interested in what happens when regular soldiers are gone from home too long. Maybe the reason the WW have flesh is that they’re...imbued with the ability via the Children's magic to thrive in the cold, and maybe they’re using Other-weapons, but they themselves are not Others. And maybe the Children slipped in a little supernatural sterilization so they couldn’t keep reproducing.
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FairladyZ2005
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Thanks for the clarification Violet and Currawong. I didn't actually re-read the chapters, just skimmed a little. :$ I didn't realize Gared had made it out alive since I couldn't find a name for the deserter in Bran's chapter. So it is pretty obvious he is meant to be the deserter. My bad.

I still want to know though how Gared made it back past the Wall and all the way to near Winterfell without telling anyone but Ned, "the WW are coming, the WW are coming!" I don't blame Gared for fleeing during the ranging party. That shouldn't be held against him. But failing to warn others about the threat when he had vital intel about the WW which could have saved lives with dereliction of duty and cowardice is a serious crime in military-like organizations like to NW. Ned is a fool for not finding out why he deserted, but it's not like Gared deliberately sought him out to warn him of this threat and Ned didn't listen. No one else spoke up like Robb ,Theon, Jon or any of Ned's bannermen either to say, wait we should listen to Gared first.

I guess this is a long way of saying, yes Ned was foolish and set in his ways, but Gared bears responsibility too to warn people, especially his fellow Nightswatchmen of the impending threat, and he didn't. Maybe that's harsh, but I don't think Gared gets off scott free is all.
Edited by FairladyZ2005, Nov 6 2017, 06:59 AM.
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Violet
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FairladyZ2005
Nov 6 2017, 06:52 AM
Thanks for the clarification Violet and Currawong. I didn't actually re-read the chapters, just skimmed a little. :$ I didn't realize Gared had made it out alive since I couldn't find a name for the deserter in Bran's chapter. So it is pretty obvious he is meant to be the deserter. My bad.

I still want to know though how Gared made it back past the Wall and all the way to near Winterfell without telling anyone but Ned, "the WW are coming, the WW are coming!" I don't blame Gared for fleeing during the ranging party. That shouldn't be held against him. But failing to warn others about the threat when he had vital intel about the WW which could have saved lives with dereliction of duty and cowardice is a serious crime in military-like organizations like to NW. Ned is a fool for not finding out why he deserted, but it's not like Gared deliberately sought him out to warn him of this threat and Ned didn't listen. No one else spoke up like Robb ,Theon, Jon or any of Ned's bannermen either to say, wait we should listen to Gared first.

I guess this is a long way of saying, yes Ned was foolish and set in his ways, but Gared bears responsibility too to warn people, especially his fellow Nightswatchmen of the impending threat, and he didn't. Maybe that's harsh, but I don't think Gared gets off scott free is all.
I liked the point you raised, FairladyZ . Because it made me recognize that whatever Gared said, it didn't resonate with Bran. Bran recounts that he doesn't remember what was said, which I think implies that Bran did hear it at the time. If it was a tale as colorful as Old Nan's stories, then I would think Bran would've remembered it. So I have to cut Ned a bit of slack. Though, I mainly fall on the side of Ned not really listening to the man. He was just going through the motions before cutting off his head.

I almost commented on what a shit Theon is. I had forgotten how much contempt Jon had for him. I know there are some who like Theon's arc, and I get it -- in my head. I can understand how people appreciate his efforts to redeem himself and how he was stuck in a bad place where it's understandable he'd grow up to be so contemptuous -- and such a shit. But I personally just can't with him. He pushes my buttons.

I do think Old Nan is simply telling truths. I'll look back again at her descriptions of the Others vs. the WW. One tiny detail that I found interesting. Bran recounts the rumors of Wildings stealing baby girls. Which struck me as interesting, because the only children we're aware of being taken are Caster's boys. Unless you count the story of the Stark girl, but she was of an age to fall romantically in love.

Edited to add
I like Old Nan, but I re-read her description of the Wildlings and it doesn't entirely hold up. She portrays them as nothing but evil. I think Mance & Company showed us that's not true. They are humans, some good, some bad, and mostly grey, who happen to live on the other (no pun intended, though an interesting word to note) side of the wall.

The description Old Nan gave in the first Bran chapter was that the Others laid with humans and created half-human creatures. Interesting.
Edited by Violet, Nov 6 2017, 10:38 AM.
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Violet
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Chapter 3 Dany

1. So much emphasis on Dany's meekness and lack of powerlust. All she wants is to return to the house with the red door and the lemon tree. Which brings me to ...

2. Is that house with the red door really in Bravos? We learn in subsequent books, from Sam and Arya, that there are no natural trees in Bravos. No water except for wells. We also have a very pointed exchange between a brotherhood without banners brother and the female innkeeper. He asks if she has lemon for the bird, and she says, "Where do you think we are -- Dorne?" I think that exchange plays like GRRM is drawing big arrows and shining a spotlight and saying, "Look at this!" Was Dany lied to about being in Bravos. Were they in Dorne?

3) Ch. 3 is the first mention of Jaime -- though not by name. "While the Kingslayer opened her father's throat with a golden sword." Already the color of his sword matters.

4) Dany talks of her brother telling her the escape to Dragonstone was at midnight. But Jaime remembers putting Rhaella and Viserys in a carriage in the morning. Where did they stop off?

5) Viserys has told Dany of Casterly Rock, the Eyrie, Dorne, Highgarden, the Valey of Aryn, and the Isle of Faces. That's the second mention of the Isle of Faces. It's going to play into the story at some point, at least in the books. Also, these places are just names to Dany. They mean nothing to her.

6 There's mention of a wet nurse. What happened to her? Is she the educated, seemingly high born woman that Tyrion meets in Essos?

7) "The Usurper's hired knives were close behind them, (Viserys) insisted, though Dany had never seen one." We know that D & V weren't chased by an assassin in awhile until Dany got pregnant. Did Robert ever send an assassin before then? Was Viserys suffering from delusions of grandeur?

8) I hadn't realized before that Illyrio was a worshipper of the Lord of Light. How does that play into the long game? Speaking of that ...

9) The 2nd mention of the Kingslayer. Viserys says he kill him and the Usurper. And then this:

"That would be most fitting," Magister Illyrio said. Dany saw the smallest hint of a smile playing around his full lips, but her brother did not notice.

So we've established Dany is more observant. But more importantly, why does what Viserys say amuse Illyrio. Does he want Jaime and/or Robert dead? Does he simply want to wreak havoc? Does he just enjoy leading Viserys around by the nose? Curious.
Edited by Violet, Nov 12 2017, 10:14 AM.
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Violet
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[Chapter 4 -- Ned . The arrival at Winterfell!!

1) Ned re: Robert wanted to visit Lyanna in the crypt. "Ned loved him for that, for remembering her still after all these years." Given what we've learned about Ned, and about how he knew the truth behind Lyanna and Rhaegar running away, this sentiment becomes curious. Robert's actions created such turmoil, and Lyanna did not want Robert. So why is Ned touched by Robert's wistful romanticism? Ned's near idolatry of Robert is a weakness of his. It makes him an interesting character, but it makes him less effective as a person within the story.

2) "Scarcely a decent inn north of the Neck." Just thought I'd point that out in light of the speculation regarding the recent casting call.

3). In the crypts, "Beyond this point the tombs were empty and unsealed, black holes waiting for their dead, waiting for him and his children." Foreshadowing. But certainly not all the children, yes? Or ... wait ... yes?

4). Re Lyanna, "I was with her when she died." Ned reminded the King. "She wanted to come home and rest beside Brandon and Father." I hadn't realized that Ned had revealed even as much as that he had found Lyanna alive. Interesting.

5). "I bring her flowers whenever I an, (Ned) said. "Lyanna was ... fond of flowers." Awwww. I am no Team Starker, but that got me.

6). Those darn rubies falling in the stream and distracting the troops. That has to become a bigger plot point, or even an all out plot twist. The distraction and chaos it caused. The armies stopping their fighting. And the magical powers that we've seen rubies have ... twice. Something went down there.

7). "I had hoped to foster him with Tywin Lannister at Casterly Rock." For as much open contempt Robert has of the Lannisters, and especially of his wife -- and secondarily Jaime -- Robert still respects the Lannisters. He saved Jaime (albeit not mentioned in this chapter). Robert speaks of "hope," which casts a positive spin on this decision. Robert goes on to say, "Lysa ought to have been honored. The Lannisters are a great and noble House." It's interesting to see how much respect Robert had for the Lannister House and name.

That's the highlights, for me, of Chapters 3 and 4.
Edited by Violet, Nov 11 2017, 09:27 PM.
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LadyCarmenSandiego
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Wow, Violet, you make me want to read those chapters again. You noticed so many things. I must say that I read Dany's chapters without paying too much attention, because they're a little boring to me, except for some parts.

I like your reflection on the Essos-Dorne possible confusion. I think it's Jaime's Beard the amount of hidden things there are in the books. Let's see if GRRM ever clarifies that in future books.
Edited by LadyCarmenSandiego, Nov 12 2017, 12:55 PM.
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LadyCarmenSandiego
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I don't know where we are in the re-reading anymore, lol. I guess each one of us is reading a different chapter by now.

I just wanted to share something I read. Ned meets Catelyn at Littlefinger's brothel and she tells him about the dagger. They suspect Tyrion is the one who sent the assassin, because Littlefinger states that the weapon was his. But Baelish also defends that Tyrion wouldn't act alone. Then they think of Cersei and why not? Even Robert. Ned wants to dismiss that thought, but starts remembering other children Robert has threatened, had them killed or seen them being killed without moving a finger to avoid it: Daenerys, Rhaegar's children... Then he thinks of Sansa pleading him to spare Lady's life a few days ago... and that reminds him of Lyanna, his own sister, who had also pleaded once, as he says. What for? Robert had been in love with her, so we guess he would have never threatened her life. What was she pleading for, then? Now we know: his son's life (Jon?). She was asking Ned not to tell Robert about her child or he will kill him.

(In GoT, Eddard IV)
Edited by LadyCarmenSandiego, Nov 26 2017, 05:41 PM.
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Violet
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I can't say I've made any progress in re-reading, but something from those first few chapters has been sitting with me. It's how adamant Jon is to never having a bastard.

It leads me to wonder if, in season 8, Jon and Dany will have a falling out or at least difficult times (her burning Sam's family or other short-tempered, impulsive actions by her), but her pregnancy will cause Jon to want to marry her. All because of the stigma Jon felt and ostracizing he underwent growing up.
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december13
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Violet
Dec 18 2017, 12:25 PM
...
It leads me to wonder if, in season 8, Jon and Dany will have a falling out or at least difficult times (her burning Sam's family or other short-tempered, impulsive actions by her)
Or, ummm, you know, they are aunt and nephew, and it's total incest and, though maybe Dany could accept that (being a Targ and all), Jon is raised in society where incest is a big, huge no?
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Violet
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december13
Dec 18 2017, 12:30 PM
Violet
Dec 18 2017, 12:25 PM
...
It leads me to wonder if, in season 8, Jon and Dany will have a falling out or at least difficult times (her burning Sam's family or other short-tempered, impulsive actions by her)
Or, ummm, you know, they are aunt and nephew, and it's total incest and, though maybe Dany could accept that (being a Targ and all), Jon is raised in society where incest is a big, huge no?
That's another good reason to make Jon all torn up. He's not going to want to be responsible for creating a bastard. At the same point, marriage with his aunt is not all that great of an option. And perhaps not even legal (though, yeah, they are Targs). It certainly won't be an appetizing idea to him.
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LadyCarmenSandiego
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Something I find curious now I'm in the middle of the re-read is that it bothers me when people refers to Jaime as Kingslayer. Of course, now I know what happened with Aerys, so when Daenerys, Ned or whoever speaks about Jaime's lack of honor it makes me clench my jaw. :mad: Poor Jaime.
Edited by LadyCarmenSandiego, Dec 29 2017, 06:39 AM.
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Valentine
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Almost a Beauty
I have read the books in Portuguese five years ago. I recall of reading them pretty fast, but I must admit that I skimmed chapters from characters and plotlines that I was not so interested in. Since then, I have been reading some random chapters in the original English version, but I never started a "serious" re-reading. After taking a look at this thread, I decided to give it a try. Let's see how things will go on!

Just to add some context: Catelyn's and Bran's POVs were my favorites when I read AGOT for the first time. I am almost sure that this will not change. Catelyn was central to the plot and I always saw some complexity in her character. I hated her contempt for Jon Snow and her worldview of noblewoman. However, at the same time, I felt a lot of sadness in her thoughts and a sense of doom. From Bran's chapters, I could see a child with an old soul. I loved the introspection that followed his fall and the fact the we learnt a lot of the Northern history and lore with him. It was interesting to me that he could assimilate (and accept) the teachings from people with very different backgrounds, namely Maester Luwin, Old Nan, and Osha.

Then, let's start with some thoughts on AGOT Prologue:

As Violet previously pointed out, it is interesting that the group beyond the Wall was leaded by the youngest and most inexperienced man. The noble birth of Ser Waymar Royce (I didn't remember that he was a knight. How does he become a knight? And why?) is conveniently highlighted in the text as well as the experience and backgrounds of the other rangers, Gared and Will. I think that he was assigned to lead the party in that specific situation because that was supposed to be a normal mission to track wildlings whereabouts. Probably, he was an able fighter and a well-learned man. I only can guess that he was chosen the leader of the group by the Lord Commander as a way to test his leadership skills. As it happened, that time was different and Ser Waymar Royce was not the best leader for that unusual situation. Gared (40 years in the Night's Watch) felt the danger and Will (who has been in more than 100 missions beyond the Wall) acknowledged it. Both guys mentioned that "something's wrong", but Royce didn't listen to them. Here, Royce's physical description and behavior reminded me the early Jon Snow (If I remember correctly, GRRM also used the word "slender" to describe Jon Snow and the Royces are related to the Starks). Later, Royce showed to be brave when he fought the Other.

The term "White Walkers" does not appear in this chapter (thanks for pointing this out Entropic Girl Reporter). Will uses the term Others in his POV and describes them as tall figures with "the flash pale as milk". They bear inhuman weapons, move silently, and bring the cold with them. I had the impression that at the beginning Will saw only spectra and couldn't tell if they were real or not. Afterwards, he realized that they indeed existed and were a true menace. Royce, however, took to long to realize it.

My general impression, after reading the ASOIAF books and watching GOT till season 7, is that we had the very first glimpse indicating that there are changes going on in that world. Now, I can interpret the line "something's wrong" as if it means "something's different" or "something's changing" as well.

There are some quotes that I found interesting and that seems to somehow highlight / foreshadow the thematics of ASOIAF:

1) “Never believe anything you hear at a woman’s tit. There are things to be learned even from the dead.
Waymar Royce said this to Will. The first sentence is bullshit. But what does he mean in the second sentence. Is he talking about family legacy or there is something more to it?

2) “It burns. It does. Nothing burns like the cold."
This is Gared describing liquid nitrogen (LOL). I found it interesting because cold burns as well as fire.

3) "Dead is dead."
I think that Gared should review his concepts. Unfortunately, he was beheaded and can't do this anymore.

4) “Its armor seemed to change color as it moved; here it was white as new-fallen snow, there black as shadow.”
Will describing the Others' armor. This reminds me a little bit Jaime's "In this light she could almost be a beauty, In this light she could almost be a knight." Also, things may be different depending on the point of view.

5) “And then there was nothing to be done for it. The order had been given, and honor bound them to obey.”
Will and Gared knew that their commander had taken an equivocated decision, but they couldn't argue according to the current rules in their institution in the world where they lived in.

6) “Dance with me then.”
Violet has already pointed this out. Waymar Royce challenging the Other for a fight. I think we later have seen this reference with Syrio Forel and, of course, Jaime.

7) “Listen to the darkness”
What does Gared mean with this?

Final remark: I think that in the show it was Will who escaped the Others and was executed by Ned.

Well, let's see how long this it will take to me. I think GRRM will release TWOW and ADOS before I finish my re-read. :roll:
Edited by Valentine, Dec 31 2017, 12:13 AM.
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Valentine
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My thoughts on Bran I:

Here we have the point of view of a 7-year-old Bran. He was riding with his father, his two older brothers, Theon, and other Northern men. It was the first time that Bran was going to watch Ned performing his executioner’s task and he seemed to be understandably confused and overwhelmed with the situation. Later, when the group was returning to Winterfell, we were introduced to the direwolves and got some insights on their supernatural and almost mythological nature.

As pointed out by a lot of people before, in this chapter we follow a 7-year-old watching a man being beheaded. Despite the uneasiness of the situation from the reader’s perspective, Bran seemed to be driven by some genuine childhood curiosity. He wasn’t amused by the execution, but he wasn’t terrified either. I had the impression that he was trying to understand what was happening and which reasons led an apparently harmless person to be sentenced to death. It is interesting that in the book Bran couldn’t recall the exact words changed between Ned and the sentenced man, and that he only learned that the man was a deserter of the Night’s Watch after talking to Ned later. From the Prologue, we know that Gared was in a mission beyond the Wall with Waymar Royce and Will and that he felt that there was something strange going on. It is not completely clear to me if Gared saw the Others or if he fled in fear before his companions were attacked and killed. I guess that Gared tried to warn Ned about the Others, but I can't tell whether he told the Lord of Winterfell about the White Walkers or whether he only mentioned some random supernatural danger. In the show instead, we saw Will being executed and we know that Bran heard Will’s warning about the White Walkers and even questioned Ned about it.

Through Bran’s POV, we first learned about some of the physical features and personality traits of Robb, Jon, Theon, and Ned. I found especially interesting that Bran clearly pointed out the differences between Robb and Jon. The first was undoubtedly a Tully while the second apparently inherited most of the Stark traits. From the words used by Bran in his description, I got the feeling that he seemed to express more admiration for his bastard brother. Robb was like a bright and charismatic young lad, but there was something else about Jon.

Later, we followed the group when they found the direwolves. Bran was truly amazed by the pups and his behavior reminded us that he was still an innocent kid, a sweet summer child.

Quote:
 
Bran sat down in the snow and hugged the wolf pup to his face. Its fur was soft and warm against his cheek.


Another interesting thing that was pointed out is the fact that Ghost was completely silent and the only person able to hear / feel it was Jon.

My favorite part in the re-read was what Bran thought after Jon asked Ned to spare the pups lives. I think that Jon was being genuinely selfless and showing real affection for his siblings, and Bran acknowledged it.

Quote:
 
He loved Jon with all his heart at that moment. Even at seven, Bran understood what his brother had done. The count had come right only because Jon had omitted himself. He had included the girls, included even Rickon, the baby, but not the bastard who bore the surname Snow,…


Other random thoughts:

1) Ned used Ice to kill an innocent man who was warning him about a real danger. Definitely, that was not honorable. He was only executing a task without any deeper reflection about it.

2) According to Bran Ice was taller than Robb. “A spell-forged Valyrian steel sword dark as smoke.”

3) Theon was really a nasty person.

4) I think that Sean Bean made Ned to be a more relatable and charismatic character in the show than his book persona.

5) Bran indeed uses the word “slender” when describing Jon’s physical features. The same word was used by Will to describe Waymar Royce.

6) Harwin appeared in this chapter. I think I had only noticed this character much later, in Arya’s POVs with the Brotherhood.

Edited by Valentine, Dec 31 2017, 03:48 PM.
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Valentine
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Almost a Beauty
My impressions of the re-read of Catelyn I and Daenerys I:

Catelyn I was a really nice re-read while Daenerys I was so-so. Well, I must to admit that I am biased towards Cat. Her character has always been compelling to me.

In Catelyn I, we were informed about Jon Arryn's death and Robert's visit to Winterfell. The king would be followed by a large entourage that included the queen, her brothers, and Robert’s and Cersei’s kids. It was the first time the Lannisters were mentioned and we learned that Ned had contempt for them. Despite these plot points, there is some interesting worldbuilding with references to the two main religions in Westeros, the First Men, the Children of the Forest, the Isle of Faces, the Valyrian Freehold, the Doom of Valyria, and even the King-beyond-the-Wall.

Surprisingly to me, Catelyn expressed her uneasiness with the heart tree in Winterfell's godswood. More than once in this chapter, she thought that the tree could be looking at her and listening to her. We now know that she might be right about it! Perhaps her own son was watching her conversation with Ned. It is also interesting the fact that Catelyn correctly pointed out about supernatural threats coming from beyond the Wall, besides the wildlings and Mance Rayder. I think I can't blame Ned for his initial disbelief. The Others were only some distant old legends by this point. However, Catelyn's instincts were shown to be right.

As final thoughts: Cat is pretty sympathetic here while Ned is ruthless and rigid. The couple seemed to be fond of each other tough.

I think that I haven't found anything special in the Daenerys I re-read. We have Daenerys' childhood memories, her complex relationship with her brother, her mistrust of Illyrio, and Viserys madness. There is Viserys POV of Robert's Rebellion (he mentioned Rhaegar and "the woman he loved") and his rage against the Usurper and the Lannisters, including the Kingslayer. Also, there is a lot of worldbuilding.

I think it is worth of note the fact that Viserys thought that 10k Dorarakis would be enough to re-conquerer Westeros and that he could have the support of Tyrells, Redwynes, and Greyjoys. Even considering the power of Tyrells and Redwynes, his plans seemed pretty risky to me. Anyway, he is portrayed as a mad man and fool as well. Another small detail is that Illyrio told Daenerys that Ser Jorah had been anointed knight by the High Septon while in the series Jorah told Barristan that he was knighted by Robert in Pyke.
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Valentine
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I am continuing my slow re-read of AGOT. It is has been pretty enjoyable!

Some random thoughts on Eddard I, Jon I, Catelyn II, and Arya I:

In Eddard I, we have Ned's POV for the arrival of the king's entourage in Winterfell. Besides Robert and Cersei, Ned noticed the presence of Sandor Clegane, Tyrion, Jaime, and Joffrey. He used the not so flattering term "Imp" in reference to Tyrion, but he didn't call Jaime kingslayer in his internal monologue until now. Later, Ned talked to the king in the crypts of Winterfell when Robert asked Ned to be his new Hand. We got their point of view about Robert's Rebellion and some few first insights into the political situation of the realm. I felt that Ned was trying to figure out the person his childhood friend has become and the new dynamics in their relationship, considering their hierarchical positions. Ned also seemed to have a bad feeling, maybe foreshadowing his doom.

In the following chapter, Jon I, we have the feast in honor to the king. Jon was behaving as a kind of drunk and annoying teenager. He was clearly disappointed with Robert, but he had some interesting thoughts about the Lannisters:

1) He was able to see something beyond Cersei's beauty. According to Jon's words, "Even at fourteen, he could see trough her smile". His initial impressions of the queen seemed to be pretty negative;

2) He didn't like Joffrey from the the very beginning.

3) As highlighted by others in this thread and beyond, he noticed Jaime's "royal" features, and a "smile that cut like a knife". Overall, I have the felling that Jon's first impressions of Jaime were not as negative as his impressions about Cersei. Also, I felt some admiration in his internal monologue. I am not completely sure if it was something superficial, based on Jaime's good looks, of if he had seen something more about Jaime.

4) Jon was fascinated by Tyrion.

Other interesting point to me is that Jon thought about both Lannister's brothers, Jaime and Tyrion, as kingly figures, but in different contexts.

Jon later interacted with Benjen and Tyrion. Benjen seemed sympathetic here while trying to give good advice to teenage Jon. Similarly, Tyrion was also acting as an advisor to Jon. The most interesting to me is that Jon seemed to not think about Tyrion with prejudice when talking to him, and that he seemed to be quite open to Tyrion as well.

Catelyn II represents the starting point for the war between Starks and Lannisters. I loved this chapter in my first read and I still love it now. Differently from the show, it was Catelyn who convinced Ned to accept the position as Hand of the King. Also, I didn't remember how ingenious Lysa's message was in the book. It is interesting that we don't have any reference about Littlefinger until this point. Then, from the perspective of a reader without any previous knowledge about the plot, it seems logical to believe that the Lannisters were the responsible for Jon Arryn's murder. Again, Ned's bad feelings were highlighted here and I felt sad for him. I was also moved by Catelyn's love for Ned and her negative feelings about Jon. Despite the apparent selfishness, I can completely relate to her.

Finally, Arya I was fine. I think didn't catch anything especially new in the re-read. I always liked young Arya as a character, but I never enjoyed her chapters so much. To highlight here, the fact that it was Arya who gave us the first insights into the Hound's physical features and behavior.

I also finished the re-read of Bran II, but I want to read it one more time before sharing my thoughts.
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Valentine
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My thoughts on Bran II:

I read AGOT, ACOK, and ASOS a few months after watching the first season of the TV show. Then, in my first reading, I was not surprised with the main event that happened in Bran II. On the other hand, I found very interesting to re-read it after following Bran's trajectory to become the Three-Eyed Raven, and Jaime's deconstruction. I hope these two meet again in books and show for a final reckoning. In my headcanon, Jaime needs Bran's forgiveness to fulfill his redemption and move on with his life. Because of this (and because I also love Bran), I am not so fond of some fan theories suggesting that Bran might be responsible for a series of past events, including his own fall, or that he is the ultimate villain of ASOIAF. I may change my mind after re-reading the books, but let's wait and see.

Speaking of Bran, this chapter depicted a defining moment to him as a character. Besides the physical disability, the fall changed his fate. If it hadn't happened, Bran would have gone to King's Landing with Ned and his sisters. However, as a result of the incident, he was not able to travel to King's Landing, and was prematurely alienated from the main political scheming. Ultimately, the fall, and the unconscious period following it, was a kind of trigger to Bran's inward journey and spiritual awakening.

I love Bran's internal monologue at the beginning. He was super excited with his imminent travel to King's Landing and at the same time he was sad for leaving his home and the people who were part of his 7-year old life. This is to me a definition of bittersweetness. Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on the point of view), he couldn't go to the capital and meet Ser Barristan.

There were also some not so random stuff that probably didn't catch my attention in the first reading: the crows in the broken tower, the direwolf howling a couple times (I assume it was trying to warn Bran or maybe someone else), and the mentions of the heart tree. All this stuff are strongly associated with the Old Gods and, as we know now, they are strongly associated to Bran as well.

Bran II also gave us some insights into Jaime and Cersei. From previous POVs, we knew that Jaime had murdered the former king, and that he was known as "the Kingslayer" since then. There were also a few glimpses of Cersei being ambitious and treacherous. Here, however, the twins were properly introduced together with adultery, incest, and murder attempt. These two definitely looked like villains on a first sight.

One of the highlights of the chapter to me was Bran eavesdropping the conversation between Jaime and Cersei and later watching their sexual intercourse. Jaime seemed to be quite bored when discussing political matters with Cersei. I think that this behavior showed how immature Jaime was at that point, but also glimpsed that the twins were not as connected as they wanted to believe.

As a side note, I think it is impossible to ship J/C romantically after reading this chapter and I think it was written to show how messed up their relationship was. But this is only my opinion.
Edited by Valentine, Jan 20 2018, 11:00 PM.
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Last week I re-read Tyrion I, Jon II, Daenerys II, Eddard II, Tyrion II, Catelyn III, Sansa I, and Eddard III. Except for Daenerys II, all the other chapters were adapted in the second episode of the TV show, The Kingsroad. Additionally, two of these POVs, Eddard II and Tyrion II, seemed to be much better now than I thought seven years ago when I first read AGOT.

Here are some of my thoughts on Daenerys II and Tyrion I:

Daenerys II was adapted in the pilot episode of Game of Thrones. The chapter described Daenerys’ and Drogo’s wedding according to Dany’s POV. Daenerys was terrified of Drogo and the Dothraki way of life. Nevertheless, she found internal strength thinking of dragons and behaved stoically when facing that situation. Later, Dany received actual petrified dragon’s eggs as a wedding gift from Illyrio. Dragons and their symbolism were a strong presence in Daenerys II and now we understand the meaning and importance of those eggs to Dany, and also to the plot.

Among Daenerys’ wedding gifts there was “a gown made from the skin of a thousand mice.” WTF? That was disgusting. And I felt sorry for the one thousand mice.

Tyrion I is the first chapter after Bran’s fall. Also, it is the first Lannister POV in the series. We learnt about Tyrion’s love for reading, and we had interesting interactions between Tyrion and his relatives (and the Hound). Joffrey was shown as a spoiled and mean teenager, though not as mean as we would discover later, while Sandor Clegane behaved as an obedient “dog” with a like for violence. And although Jaime and Cersei were once more depicted as physically looking like each other, Tyrion distinguished them as two different people in his internal monologue. While Jaime had always treated Tyrion with some affection, Cersei had shown only contempt and distaste for him. Regarding Tyrion’s and Jaime’s relationship: I had the feeling that despite being fond of Jaime and understanding his brother as no one else (except for Brienne much later), Tyrion couldn't see beyond Jaime’s guarded and cynical facade. Brienne was the only person to fully comprehend Jaime and his motivations, and this was because he chose to open up to her. Finally, I felt quite sad for the brothers when remembering Jaime’s part in ruining Tyrion’s and Tysha’s marriage.
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LadyCarmenSandiego
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Valentine
Jan 21 2018, 02:25 PM
Among Daenerys’ wedding gifts there was “a gown made from the skin of a thousand mice.” WTF? That was disgusting. And I felt sorry for the one thousand mice.
This comment made my day, Valentine. :roll:

I'm in the middle of A Clash of Kings already. I think I stopped paying so much attention to details through the first book due to my inability to post my thoughts right after having them (I had already forgotten them when I finally turned on my computer), but I'm enjoying so much your posts. Keep going.
Edited by LadyCarmenSandiego, Jan 21 2018, 02:36 PM.
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Valentine
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What is helping me with the details is the fact that I am reading a Kindle version of the books. Then I can make notes and highlight the parts I think are relevant and that I want to return later. I think these tools are quite useful for complicated stories as ASOIAF.
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LadyCarmenSandiego
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You're right, they're pretty useful. I thank Kindle for providing you with those tools. ^^
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Valentine
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In Jon II, we witnessed Jon’s farewells to three of his siblings: Bran, Robb, and Arya. This chapter left me with some sad feelings because it portrayed the final interactions between Jon and Cat, and Jon and Robb. The points that attracted my attention the most were the detailed description of Bran’s fragile health condition, and, of course, the fraught conversation between Jon and his stepmother. Cat’s hopelessness and sleep deprivation certainly contributed to amplify her angst towards Jon. It was poignant to read that dialogue after knowing the story behind Jon’s origins. These two had never been on good terms, and they will never have the opportunity of reckoning with each other.

In the adaptation of this chapter to the TV show, there were two additional interactions / farewells showing Jon and Jaime, and Jon and Ned (I guess this one could be part of Ned’s POV as well). I liked these additions and I think they were important for what happened later in the story. Perhaps they also may be important for future events that we haven't seen yet (Jon and Jaime and their parallels).

As a final remark (I apologize if this is a little bit silly), it was sweet to re-read Jon and Arya naming Needle. I want to read the Oathkeeper passage again, but I guess I prefer the show version in which Brienne is the one who names the sword.
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The main action taking place in Eddard II was the conversation between Ned and Robert. During a break in their journey to King's Landing, they discussed some of the kingdom's affairs, namely Daenerys's wedding to Khal Drogo and the appointment of a new Warden of the East. Despite their long term friendship, Ned and Robert seemed to have divergent opinions on how to deal with those matters and, I would say, very different moral standards as well. Probably Ned wouldn't last long as The Hand of the King if both of them hadn't died so early in the series. Besides the dynamics between "childhood friends who had become business partners", the chapter was filled with backstory about the Robert's Rebellion and these passages were simply great. They put into context Ned's contempt for Tywin and the Lannisters as an institution.

When thinking about Ned's and Robert's disagreement on how to deal with Daenerys's affair, I tend to believe that both of them were right somehow. Robert wanted to kill Dany (and Viserys) to eliminate her potential menace and avoid a Dothraki invasion. His reasoning seemed to be straightforward, and I guess most of the politicians in the real world would think like him. Ned, on the other hand, wanted a more "honorable" and conservative approach. Considering our current knowledge about the story, it would be easy to say that Robert was correct in his assumption. However, in the beginning of AGOT, Daenerys had no power and no dragons. Anyway, despite the raised concerns, the discussion was pointless since they had no access to Dany and Viserys, and thus couldn't take any immediate action in that regard.

The second subject of their discussion, the "Warden of the East" affair, appeared to be kind of weird. In summary, Ned correctly guessed that Robert was willing to appoint Jaime Lannister as the new Warden of the East. In addition to this, he pointed out that, after Tywin death, Jaime would be both Warden of the East and Warden of the West. If I understood correctly, there was no mention of Jaime renouncing his titles and inheritance by the occasion he joined the Kingsguard. Ned and Robert seemed to believe that Jaime would become the Lord of Casterly Rock and the Warden of the West after the eventual death of Lord Tywin. I don't remember if this point was addressed in the books later, or if it is simply a plot hole.

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“It’s Jaime Lannister, is it not?”

Robert kicked his horse back into motion and started down the ridge toward the barrows. Ned kept pace with him. the king rode on, eyes straight ahead. "Yes", he said at last. A single hard word to end that matter.

“Kingslayer,” Ned said. The rumors were true, then. He rode on dangerous ground now, he knew. “An able and courageous man, no doubt,” he said carefully, “but his father is Warden of the West, Robert. In time Ser Jaime will succeed to that honor. No one man should hold both East and West.” He left unsaid his real concern; that the appointment would put half the armies of the realm into the hands of Lannisters.

“I will fight that battle when the enemy appears on the field,” the king said stubbornly. “At the moment, Lord Tywin looms eternal as Casterly Rock, so I doubt that Jaime will be succeeding anytime soon. Don’t vex me about this, Ned, the stone has been set.”
(Martin, George R.R., A Game of Thrones, Eddard II)


This passage in Ned's POV also revealed all the contempt he had for Jaime. After re-reading Eddard II, I tend to believe that most of Ned's inherent prejudices against Jaime (and the other Lannisters) came from his perception about Tywin. Ned witnessed the Sack of King's Landing and he was clearly horrified by it. He probably connected all the atrocities and war crimes he had seen with the Lannister army, and consequently with Tywin, and Jaime in a lesser extent.

ETA: As many people pointed out before on this forum, Ned's grudge against Jaime was exaggerated and, I would say, fascinating. It is interesting the fact he could show some degree of empathy for Jaime when thinking about Bran's incident, but never seemed to accept or understand the motivations that led Jaime to murder Aerys. This is very telling about Ned's personality and inner conflicts. He never have been in a situation similar to the one faced by Jaime during Robert's Rebellion, but he could relate with Jaime's instincts of protecting Cersei and their offspring, probably due to his experience with Lyanna and J.on Snow.

As in previous Ned's and Cat's POVs, J.on Arryn is again briefly mentioned in this chapter. This guy has always been a cipher to me (perhaps even more than Rhaegar). I don't know why, but I used to think of him as a villain disguised under a benevolent facade. I actually do think he was a much better politician than Ned, but I am very suspicious of his motivations. Do you have any thoughts about J.on Arryn?


Edited by Valentine, Feb 3 2018, 01:32 PM.
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Aerest
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Feb 3 2018, 12:01 AM
Anyway, despite the raised concerns, the discussion was pointless since they had no access to Dany and Viserys, and thus couldn't take any immediate action in that regard.
Oh, they had, via Varys, who's really well-connected with the East and provided them with all the information.
Illyrio surely isn't Varys' only partner over there, and Jorah surely not the only spy.
And as the eventual murder attempt on Daenerys proves, it is quite easy to hire people to take matters into hand, if wanted.
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Feb 3 2018, 06:54 AM
Valentine
Feb 3 2018, 12:01 AM
Anyway, despite the raised concerns, the discussion was pointless since they had no access to Dany and Viserys, and thus couldn't take any immediate action in that regard.
Oh, they had, via Varys, who's really well-connected with the East and provided them with all the information.
Illyrio surely isn't Varys' only partner over there, and Jorah surely not the only spy.
And as the eventual murder attempt on Daenerys proves, it is quite easy to hire people to take matters into hand, if wanted.


I guess I didn't chose the right words. However, I do actually think it would have been difficult to be successful in an eventual murder attempt against the Targaryen siblings. And Ned and Robert were aware of it. Robert pointed out that Illyrio's protection and Dany's wedding to Khal Drogo would make a potential murder attempt more difficult, and that they lost better opportunities when Dany and Viserys were more vulnerable. Moreover, Varys, Illyrio, and Jorah showed to be "double agents" having their own agendas (except by Jorah, perhaps, who truly felt in love with Daenerys). Ned was right for being suspicious of them and their intentions. Anyway, despite being relatively easy to hire murderers to kill the Targaryens, the probability or failure was quite high as well. Indeed, it had been proven true after the many failed attempts against Dany. A faceless man could have been a different story though.
Edited by Valentine, Feb 3 2018, 02:17 PM.
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I just picked up reading again. I got through chapter 17, Bran’s first green seeing experience.

The most curious, perhaps most debated, part of that vision was the description of the three shadows that are around the Trident. At first blush, those three shadow seem to be referring to the Hound, Jaime, and the Mountain. Although, we wouldn’t know about the Mountain until a few books later.

But I’m still perplexed. The Mountain wasn’t even there, or elsewise a direct threat to them at that time.

And, curiously, even though the mere mention of shadows makes one think of the three figures as threats, I pull back and don’t even know if that’s the case. Upon rereading that section, it is just mentioned that the shadows are there. There’s no erie or evil descriptives given to their presence. We’ve already been treated to a description of a shadow, and that was about Tyrion was casting the shadow of a very large giant ( which was something important enough to put into the show). And we also know, from the show, and later on in the books, Melissandre’s defense of shadows. For whatever that is worth.

So are the shadows even threats? Are they referring to the Hound, and Jaime – all golden and beautiful – and the Mountain with a helmet of stone and no face and black blood, and who towers over the other two.

I tend to think that George hasn’t given us all the crumbs to get us to the end of this trail.

I do see how the Hound was a threat and so was Jaime, and that they were searching for, and perhaps would’ve harmed, Arya. As to the stone towering over them both, I can’t help but wonder if that isn’t either Littlefinger, because his actions have put everything into the motion and thus he is a serious threat to the Starks (and his family sigil is the stone head of the Bravos statue) or Ilyn Payne. But I am far from figuring this one out.

And I can’t help but wonder if these three shadows aren’t warriors from the battle of the trident, still lingering somehow.

Also, I found interesting that it wasn’t Lady’s death that suddenly woke brown up, like in the show. Brands vision happened after Lady’s death. But perhaps it was her death that allowed him to make his first green seeing flight. I do see Lady’s somehow a sacrifice that allows bran to live or become the three-eyed raven.

I did also double down, for better or worse, that Bran’s fall was orchestrated by spirits or powers beyond human. The crow telling Brandon that he had to wake up because winter was coming suggests a purpose and a grand plan or scheme. It was also curious that Bran didn’t see the white walkers in his vision, even though he went far, far beyond the wall in his vision.

So many questions raised in this chapter. And still today, so few answers.

In his vision, Bran also mentioned seeing dragon stirring in Asshai. Which calls to mind that Quarthe attempted to persuade Danny to go to Asshai.

So many questions raised. And, several books later, so few of those questions answered.

Edited by Violet, Feb 7 2018, 09:38 PM.
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Violet, I found interesting your thoughts on Tyrion's shadow. Also, there was a passage in Jon's POV (Jon I) highlighting it:

Quote:
 
And with that he [Tyrion] turned and sauntered back into the feast, whistling a tune. When he opened the door, the light from within threw his shadow clear across the yard, and for just a moment Tyrion Lannister stood tall as a king.

There were at least three points that caught my attention in the re-read of Bran III.
First, the visions Bran had of Jon and the heart of winter:
Quote:
 
Finally he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him.

Quote:
 
North and north and north he looked, to the curtain of light at the end of the world, and then beyond that curtain. He looked deep into the heart of winter, and then he cried out, afraid, and the heat of his tears burned on his cheeks.

Now you know, the crow whispered as it sat on his shoulder. Now you know why you must live.

Second, the visions of Cat in the present, and Arya and Sansa in an undefined time, I suppose. And third, Bran naming Summer after feeling the warmth coming from the wolf. Could it be a 'premonition' of summer coming after the long night (with both literal and figurative meanings)?

ETA: I agree with your points about Lady's death and Bran's fall.
Edited by Valentine, Feb 8 2018, 01:58 AM.
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Re-reading Tyrion II after watching seasons 5-7 of Game of Thrones was an interesting experience. There was Tyrion and his fascination with dragons, Tyrion and Jon talking about dragons, and Tyrion recollecting the story of Aegon and the Field of Fire.

Some points that caught my attention were:

1. A few more glimpses on Stark x Lannister rivalry with Benjen and Tyrion.
2. Tyrion reading about the properties of dragonbone in a book he borrowed from Winterfell's library.
3. Three dragons: Balerion, Meraxes, and Vhaghar.
4. All the lore about dragons, the history of Aegon's conquer, and Tyrion sharing his childhood memories and dreams with Jon.
Quote:
 
“I used to start fires in the bowels of Casterly Rock and stare at the flames for hours, pretending they were dragonfire. Sometimes I’d imagine my father burning. At other times, my sister.”

5. Tyrion noticing Jon "looking deep into the flames."
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