| 'A Game of Thrones' (book 1) re-read | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Oct 22 2017, 11:43 AM (2,458 Views) | |
| Violet | Feb 9 2018, 06:11 PM Post #61 |
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Bath Steamer
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I’m up to Chap. 25. Retreating back to Bran 3 (Chap. 17): The opening sentence is something like “It seemed as though he had been falling for years.” I see you, George. But is that a crumb? Or preemptive trolling? Then, in Bran 4, there is this passage about Old Nan telling Bran stories: Thousands and thousands of years ago, Brandon the Builder had raised Winterfell, and some said the Wall. Bran knew the story, but it had never been his favorite. Maybe one of the other Brandons had liked that story. Sometimes Nan would talk to him as if he were her Brandon, the baby she had nursed all those years ago, and sometimes she confused him with his uncle Brandon, who was killed by the Mad King before Bran was even born. She had lived so long, Mother had told him once, that all the Brandon Starks had become one person in her head. Trolling or a true revelation of Bran being other Brans reincarnate? My other big takeaway: WTF is up with these direwolves? They serve some of role in moving the characters where they are supposed to go. On-the-page plot developers who were sent in motion by an invisible hand in the book. They save the characters who need saving in order to get them to do what this invisible power wants them to do. We think of them as saving the heroes and heroines of this story. But are they? When Ned hears about how Summer saved Bran, he even thinks to himself how these direwolves may have been divinely sent to protect his children. And he feels guilt for killing Lady and robbing Sansa of her. We, the audience, are supposed to be thinking the same thing. And this is why we’re supposed to take the direwolves side when they gang up and almost viciously attack Tyrion upon sight when he returns to Winterfell from the wall. They attack him, and only when called off by Robb, Bran, and Rickon do they spare him. Why the instant dislike? Because Tyrion is small and looks like a tasty treat? I think they’re more discerning than that. I think even at first blush we are to think the same thing. They sense something. Ghost, too, becomes a bit hostile toward Tyrion when he first encounters him during the feast at Winterfell. And then, after Tyrion befriends Jon, we see a shift in Ghost, as he lets Tyrion pet him. So, at this point, we’re being conditioned to see the direwolves as adoring pets and fiercely protective of their owners. And we’re being taught – and maybe even fooled into thinking -- that their judgment is good. They bite Joffrey. They kill Bran’s would-be assassin. Later, Nymeria will save Arya when she’s on the run from Harenhall. That’s all good, right? And, going back to Tyrion, we are supposed to think that the direwolves are at least justified in their suspicion of or reaction to Tyrion. He’s a Lannister, after all. And we’re still being led to believe at this time – though we’ll be shortly corrected – that Tyrion may be in on hurting Bran. I think we’re supposed to be torn on the subject at that point on initial read. It’s only later that we fully exonerate Tyrion. And the direwolves attack is all but forgotten. And, I mean, who could blame them given that they may have been reacting to Robb’s distrust of Tyrion. But I don’t think that’s what’s going on. I think, independent of the vibes they were getting from the Starks, they all honed in on something about Tyrion. I do think something divine is up with the direwolves. Something magical. And I’m suspicious that they aren’t on the side of the humanity as a whole. Last point I had forgotten that Aemon had declared Tyrion to be a giant. Aemon thought very highly of him. Man, were we getting mixed signals about Tyrion. I know – grey characters. A mix of pros and cons. Still, Tyrion is all over the place as a character. Edited by Violet, Feb 9 2018, 06:12 PM.
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| Violet | Feb 9 2018, 06:42 PM Post #62 |
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Bath Steamer
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Oh, and maybe I just see boogeymen everywhere. But I got a real vibe on this read through that Ilyrio had some nefarious plans for Viserys. I don't think Ilyrio was offering Viserys to stay behind with him out of the kindness of his heart. The thought was popping into my head that he was using Viserys to get his cooperation, and in turn Day's cooperation, in selling her to the Dothraki. I think once that goal was accomplished, Ilyrio may have had Viserys killed, since he was a useless pawn now that he got what he wanted. Or have turned him over to Robert for a bit of coin and some goodwill. Also, I'll figure this out better later, but isn't Ilyrio aware of Jon Connington & Aegon? Isn't that how Tyrion winds up with them? Why hedge bets like that by backing both Viserys and Fake Aegon? Or could the two schemes intersect? And, with Viserys out of the way and a presumably weak-willed Dany, the Dothraki will then come under Aegon's command? Back to Ilyrio, though. I think he was up to something very different than trying to give Viserys an army to conquer Westeros. Edited by Violet, Feb 9 2018, 07:34 PM.
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| Valentine | Feb 11 2018, 02:59 PM Post #63 |
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Almost a Beauty
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Violet, it is interesting to read your thoughts about the direwolves. I agree there is something supernatural / magical about them. I guess there are several hints in these initial chapters suggesting it. Up to where I am in my re-read, and considering my first read and what I've seen in the show, I don't think there is something inherently bad about them. They do have a strong connection with the Stark children. And they are a reflection of their owners somehow. But perhaps I will change my mind as I advance in the plot. |
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| Valentine | Feb 11 2018, 03:03 PM Post #64 |
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Almost a Beauty
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From the previous Jon’s POV, we learned that Cat hadn’t left Bran’s bedside since his fall. At that point, she had been living in Bran’s chamber for about a fortnight, barely resting or eating. When Catelyn III started, the situation hadn’t improved. Bran was still lying unconscious while Cat was unable to deal with her duties as mother (of Robb and Rickon) and lady of Winterfell. Somehow Bran’s murder attempt was Cat’s way out of madness. After that, she was filled with a new motivation: to investigate those who were responsible for threatening her son’s life. Cat left Winterfell and never came back. The impulsive decisions she had made thenceforth contributed to the fall of House Stark, the death of her beloved ones, and the War of the Five Kings. However, her instincts weren’t completely wrong. The suspicion of Jaime’s involvement in Bran’s incident was correct. Also, the assumption that Bran could have witnessed something and the Lannisters wanted him dead to cover up seemed to be logical. Probably, the biggest mistake made by Cat and Ned was believing in Lord Baelish without verifying the veracity of his information. Indeed, Littlefinger blindsided both Starks and Lannisters. In the TV show, this plotline seemed to be concluded in season 7, implying Littlefinger’s role in misleading the Starks to believe the dagger used by the assassin belonged to Tyrion. In the books, there were hints suggesting that Joffrey could have been involved with the commissioned assassin, if I recall correctly. Anyway, I guess I will have more insights into this as I advance in the re-read. Other random thoughts: 1. Cat noticing some Stark features in Robb and subtly associating it with him becoming an adult. 2. Cat’s uneasiness with Summer before the direwolf saved Bran’s life. 3. The remark that the blade used by the cutthroat killer was made of Valyrian steel, and had a hilt made of dragonbone. Curiously, Tyrion was reading about dragonbone in the previous chapter (Tyrion II) and he didn’t seem to be familiar with it. |
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| Valentine | Feb 17 2018, 10:23 PM Post #65 |
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Almost a Beauty
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Sansa I (when Sansa’s fairy tale dreams started to become a nightmare) To me, it was easy to dislike Sansa after reading her first POV in AGOT and watching the second episode of Game of Thrones, The Kingsroad. Sansa’s negative personality traits were highlighted first: she was spoiled, selfish, and elitist. Also, she wasn’t particularly thoughtful or perceptive. But at the same time, Sansa showed some sympathetic characteristics from the very beginning: she was polite, sensitive, and utterly naïve. I slowly changed my perception as her character evolved throughout the story, and I was certainly more tolerant with her persona in this re-read than I was before. In the first part of the chapter, we started to comprehend Sansa, her dreams and motivations. “All she wanted was for things to be nice and pretty, the way they were in the songs.” Like Arya, she was a child by that point and, as such, most of her thoughts were simply childish. Initially, the squabbles between sisters seemed to be the result of their distinct personalities and immaturity. But I guess there was more about it. Sansa and Arya were the complete opposite on the surface, and on how the behaved and approached life. They were a counterpoint between two worldviews: southern Westeros vs. northern Westeros (or perhaps civilization vs. wilderness). The Stark girls were unable to understand or accept the differences between them, and live in harmony with each other. In the second part, Sansa met Barristan, Renly, and Ilyn Payne. Sansa’s reactions to these three men (and to Sandor Clegane) emphasized how her judgment was based on appearances and fairy tale concepts of beauty, honor and value. To Sansa, Barristan was the knight in shinny armor while Renly was the gentle, handsome, and noble lord. We learned later that neither Barristan nor Renly were as honorable and kind as they looked at first sight. Barristan was a skilled knight who ignored the atrocities committed by the king he had sworn to serve and protect. And Renly was superficial, despite his apparent kindness and good intentions. Ilyn Payne and Sandor Clegane, on the other hand, frightened Sansa and challenged her worldview, I would say. They would be the villains of her stories or they wouldn’t even be in her stories. The irony is that both Ilyn Payne and Sandor Clegane served Sansa’s perfect prince, Joffrey, and his family. Most of the cruel actions assigned to this two men were committed when they were following orders from Joffrey, Cersei or Tywin. Finally, in the third part, Joffrey showed his true colors for the readers, but still not for Sansa. All the signs of Joffrey’s cruelty and sociopathy transpired when he threatened Arya and Mycah, but Sansa was completely blinded by her infatuation and unable to see who Joffrey really was. Random thoughts: - Rhaegar’s rubies lost in the Trident. - Joffrey’s first sword was called Lion’s Tooth. This is the name of a flower. Joffrey had such a romantic soul. - Lady and Nymeria emulating Sansa’s and Arya’s behaviors and personalities, respectively. - The only thing the sisters seemed to have in common was their affection for their direwolves. Also, Sansa’s affection for Lady was the most Starkish trait I could identify on her. |
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| Valentine | Feb 24 2018, 09:55 PM Post #66 |
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Almost a Beauty
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When Eddard III began, Jory Cassel and other Stark men had just found Arya after four days searching for her. Arya had been immediately brought before Robert and Cersei without the chance of talking to Ned. Robert was upset with the whole situation while Cersei was thirsty for justice, cruelty and revenge. During the audience, Joffrey and Arya told different versions of the events leading to their fight while Sansa, pretending to be sonsa*, told she didn’t remember anything. By the end, it was decided that Robert would discipline Joffrey and Ned would do the same with Arya. Cersei also demanded the execution of Arya’s direwolf, and since Nymeria couldn’t be found, Lady was killed in its place by Ned. The butcher’s boy, Mycah, had been found and killed by Sandor Clegane, but no one seemed to care about him, except for Arya perhaps. As in his previous POV, Eddard II, Ned was very uneasy in his new role as the Hand of the King. Also, he was slowly showing disappointment with his childhood friend and current king, Robert Baratheon. I have the overall feeling that Ned’s POVs in AGOT are about him realizing that he shouldn’t have accepted Robert’s offer and left the North. This time, it was Cersei the Lannister targeted by Ned’s contempt. However, although I believe Ned was biased against Cersei, I do think she was behaving as a spoiled rich bitch and I hated her during this whole chapter. I always thought Cersei approved and encouraged Joffrey’s sociopathic tendencies and this chapter seemed to corroborate my assumptions. Random remark: Renly mocking Joffrey and Lion’s Tooth was fun.
*Note: the words sonsa and Sansa sound quite similar, and Sansa was pretending to be sonsa when narrating her version of the quarrel between Joffrey and Arya. Or perhaps Sansa was indeed sonsa during AGOT. |
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| Valentine | Mar 3 2018, 08:21 PM Post #67 |
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Almost a Beauty
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Bran III seemed like the narration of a near-death experience with psychedelic tones. Bran’s first prophetical dream, or ‘greensight’, was the trigger for his awakening in both the literal and the figurative senses. Guided by a crow with three eyes, Bran slowly became aware of his abilities and started to accept them. By the time the dream ended, Bran had learned ‘how to fly’ and ‘opened his third eye’. Finally, he woke up to face his new reality. From a plot perspective, Bran’s dream was filled with interesting information on events that were happening in the present, that had happened in the past, or even visions from a unspecified time (past, present or future). Moreover, it gave us insights into the nature and extension of Bran's powers. The visions, as they appeared in the dream, were the following: - A vision of himself laying in bed unconscious. (Present). - A vision of Jaime. Probably a memory of his fall. An interesting point about this was the crow suggesting Bran to not get attached to that specific memory. (Recent past).
- Visions of Winterfell and the people living there. Also, a vision of the weirwood tree staring at him. (I tend to believe these events were happening in the present. According to Bran, Robb looked 'taller' and 'stronger', and he has practicing swordplay with real steel. This description matches the one we read in Catelyn III) - A vision of Catelyn in a boat. She was with the dagger used by the assassin who tried to kill Bran. (Present). - When looking at the Trident, Bran had visions of Ned, Sansa, and Arya. He also described three shadows that were surrounding his sisters. There has been a lot of speculation about the shadows' identity, but, most probably, they are Jaime, Sandor Clegane, and Gregor Clegane. The vision Bran had of Ned seemed to be from the events narrated in Eddard III while the visions of Sansa and Arya were less precise. The shadows imagery and their association with the Stark girls might hint future events. (I have doubts whether these shadows are important or not. And I am not sure if there will be a callback to them in the next books*). - Visions of across the narrow sea: the Free Cities, the Dothraki sea, Vaes Dothrak, the Jade Sea, and Asshai. Also, Bran had seen dragons when looking at Asshai.(Unspecified time). - A vision of Jon Snow in the Wall. Maybe after his murder. (Unspecified time / future). - A vision of the far north, of the 'heart of winter'. At this moment, the crow pointed out that Bran had to live because 'winter was coming'. Bran noticed that the crow had three eyes, and that its third eye was 'full of a terrible knowledge'. When looking down while still falling, he saw 'snow, cold, and death', and 'the bones of a thousand other dreamers impaled upon blue-white spheres of ice. After this last vision, Bran was finally able to fly. He immediately woke up, with the 'third eye' opened. The main feeling I had while and after re-reading this chapter was that the crow symbolized Bran himself. Perhaps it represented memories and knowledge that were hidden in Bran's mind (i.e., past memories of the former Brandon Starks). *I am still assuming that TWOW and ADOS will be released one day. ETA: What does he mean by thousand other dreamers? Were then other greenseers? Edited by Valentine, Mar 3 2018, 08:44 PM.
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| Valentine | Mar 4 2018, 09:36 PM Post #68 |
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Almost a Beauty
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Some random thoughts I had while re-reading Bran’s prophetic dream in AGOT motivated me to revisit Jaime’s weirwood dream in ASOS. I could see some parallels regarding the contexts in which the dreams happened, in how they were structured, and the impact they had in Bran’s and Jaime’s future journeys. Both Bran and Jaime dreamed their dreams during the recovery from injuries that let them with permanent physical disabilities. While Bran was still in coma and unaware of his clinical condition, Jaime was struggling to accept the new reality after the loss of his hand. In addition to the physical pain, Jaime was also haunted by decisions he had made in the past. The impulsive and important decisions of joining the Kingsguard and killing Aerys had defined Jaime’s life so far as well as the perception people had of him. Bran’s dream seemed to be more straightforward. It makes sense when we consider that Bran was still a naïve seven-year-old boy. He had no traumas and no need to face ghosts of the past. The dream started with Bran falling, continued with the crow guiding him through his visions, and ended after the last vision, the one that would define his character arc from that point onwards. Before waking up, Bran acquired some degree of awareness about his purpose. Understandably, he was dizzy and confused after waking up, but he seemed to comprehend and accept the message contained in the dream and his magical abilities. Jaime’s dream seemed to be more nuanced and opened to interpretation. As it happened with Bran, Jaime also started his dream descending towards the darkness. When in the deepest level, he met his ancestors and some members of his actual family: Tywin, Cersei, and Joffrey. At that point, Tywin and Cersei detached themselves from Jaime, leaving him behind. He would have to face his ghosts alone. But he wasn’t alone. Brienne was there supporting him, fighting beside him, and lighting his way out of darkness. Again, as it happened with Bran, Jaime also woke up immediately after the most significant part of his dream, after becoming aware of how important Brienne was to him and of how important they were to each other. From that point onwards, Jaime begun to come into terms with his past, and accept himself and his disability. Finally, he started to head towards a different direction, and his and Cersei’s stories became more and more divergent. Note about Jaime's dream is ASOS: Immediately before falling asleep, Jaime mentioned other fever dreams that were ‘so vivid’. Since he also mentioned his hope of dreaming of Cersei, I speculate that his twin sister didn’t appear in those previous dreams but Brienne did. |
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| Violet | Mar 5 2018, 11:38 AM Post #69 |
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Bath Steamer
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Going from memory here, but I believe the crow tells Bran that he's doesn't need that image (of Jaime pushing him out the window) now. My emphasis on the now, but I think it's important. It'll be revealed to Bran later. Speaking of this, this is sparking all sorts of thoughts. Bran doesn't know at this point -- either in the books or the show -- that Jaime is responsible for pushing him out the window, right? As of now, the only people "alive" who know that are: 1) Jaime; 2) Brienne; 3) Cersei, and 4) Lady Stoneheart. Yes? Right? The potential exists for Bran to have access to this memory as well. So what's going to happen when Jaime shows up at Winterfell in Season 8? Will that trigger Bran's memory? Will that lead to the Starks turning on Jaime and imprisoning or punishing him? What will Brienne do? If Bran doesn't have that memory re-surface, will Brienne not mention it when Jaime shows up? Will Brienne and Jaime talk about it? Season 8 might have some really juicy drama, after all. (To me, Zombie fights and huge battle scenes, are anticlimactic.) I got a few more chapters into GoT, and I'll have to take a look at my highlights to comment fully. One point that I do recall is that both Jaime and Jon have dreams about being or going down in the cellars of their respective castles. Jon dreams of down into the crypts of Winterfell. The parallels between the two continue. It's my hope -- though not my expectation -- that this is all leading toward the characters all presuming that Jon is the one who will deliver them from White Walkers (and essentially be Azor Ahai, even if they don't know the prophecy), when the fake out will be that it's been Jaime all along. I keep going back to the books all Commander Mormont's raven (hi Ser Duncan!, maybe, just maybe) going crazy when someone said the word "king" in the same sentence as Jon and Jaime. We're to think he's talking about Jon. But it's really been Jaime all along. |
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| Valentine | Mar 6 2018, 11:44 PM Post #70 |
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Almost a Beauty
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Violet, I agree with your point about the emphasis put on the word now and that Bran will most certainly recover the memory of his fall. Bran's journey to become the Three Eyed-Raven needed that momentary detachment from mundane things. However, considering the ensemble of Bran's experiences and the person / entity he has become, I tend to believe that he will remain emotionally detached. Also, now that Bran has more control over his powers, he can put people's actions into context, and understand their conflicts and motivations.
I think Bran does know that it was Jaime who had pushed him, but he is blocking the memory through a coping mechanism. Probably, some future event or vision will trigger that memory, or perhaps it had already happened offscreen. Speaking of coping mechanisms, this seems to be true for Jaime. He certainly remembers what happened, but he doesn't seem to be conflicted or reflect too much about it. I think he will be devastated when meeting Bran again. Jaime will have to face Bran and the consequences of his actions. From this perspective, following Jaime's reaction to Bran will be as much interesting as following Bran's reaction to Jaime.
As for the other characters reactions, most of the people who are still alive were exposed to conflicting situations and had to make controversial decisions at some point. Bran, Sansa & Jon aren't Ned, Cat & Robb. OTOH, Arya and Daenerys seem to be wild-cards. However, Arya is obsessed with Cersei and not Jaime, and Dany is aware that the mad king earned his name. (I still believe Dany won't be the next mad queen, but I may be wrong about it). To me, the most negative and hypocritical reactions will come from Lord Royce and the northern lords (the male lords). Those guys seem to be irreversibly attached to the old way. Brienne understands and loves Jaime. She will probably try to protect him and to help in the interactions with the Starks et al. Also, she knows he tried to keep true to his oath to Catelyn.
You are right about the parallels between Jaime's and Jon's dreams. However, I still believe that Jon (and Bran) will have a prominent role in defeating or controlling the White Walkers. Considering how the WW were created in the show and how they used Craster's sons to create new WWs, I imagine that the Stark bloodline should to be important. I have doubt's about Jaime's role in 'the war for the dawn', but the fact that he and Brienne have Widow's Wail and Oathkeeper may suggest a magical role for both of them.
Perhaps it may refer to both Jon and Jaime. Edited by Valentine, Mar 7 2018, 01:54 AM.
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| Valentine | Mar 11 2018, 06:42 PM Post #71 |
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Almost a Beauty
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Catelyn IV In this chapter, we got to know two main players of the political game in Westeros: Lord Varys, also known as the Spider, and Lord Petyr Baelish, also known as Littlefinger. Those characters were very different from what he had seen before. Both of them had climbed social ladders and got prominent positions as king’s counselors. However, they were still despised by members of the high nobility who used to think of them as ‘inferior people’. Here it was Catelyn who had shown her inherent class prejudice and somehow underestimated those men. Sometime later, Ned made the same mistake. So, despite the suspicious intentions shown by Varys and Littlefinger, it was kind of rewarding to see them playing with the Westerosi nobility for a while. King’s landing, the capital of the Seven Kingdom’s, was also introduced to us in this chapter. I must confess I didn’t remember that Cat was the first POV we got in King’s Landing. I loved to re-read these passages and I really appreciated GRRM writing here. I found interesting the fact that Cat was in a ship when she approached the city. Also, differently from Ned, she was depicted as person who cared about aesthetics, and she was alone with Ser Rodrik Cassel instead of being surrounded by a large entourage. All that stuff put together allowed us a complete view of the city’s landscape and its main landmarks: the Great Sept of Baelor in Visenya’s Hill, the Dragonpit in Rhaenys’ Hill, and the Red Keep in Aegon’s Hill. Later, when ashore, Cat guided us through roads, streets and alleys giving a lively description of the capital in peaceful and prosperous times. Finally, we learned a bit about King’s Landing backstory:
Back to the plot, Cat arrived in King’s Landing to proceed with her investigation of Bran’s murder attempt and its association with Jon Arryn’s death. Her not-so-smart plan was to stay incognito in King’s Landing and to get information about the owner of the Valyrian steel dagger with Robert’s master-at-arms. Of course, that was impossible with Varys’ spy network and Catelyn, as the highborn lady she was, should have known better about the Spider. Varys informed Littlefinger about the visitor and they both tried to figure out the reasons behind Lady Stark’s sudden and unexpected visit. Finally, Cat was misled by Littlefinger to believe that the dagger used by the assassin hired to kill Bran was in possession of Tyrion Lannister. Together with the plot about Jon Arryn’s death, that move from Littlefinger resulted in the misunderstandings that put Starks against Lannisters, and that eventually triggered the War of the Five Kings and complete chaos. Although there were subtle clues suggesting that Varys and especially Littlefinger couldn’t be fully trusted, it was impossible to realize the extent of their manipulations. So, I can’t completely blame Cat for believing in Lysa and Littlefinger, at least so far. |
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| Valentine | Mar 17 2018, 01:04 PM Post #72 |
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Almost a Beauty
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Jon III
I loved this passage and its symbolism. It is informing us that when the Wall falls, the world will be changed permanently. This is not only about the threat to humanity represented by the Others, this is about the beginning of a new era. I have been reading lots of theories speculating about who will be next Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, and perhaps the 1000th Lord Commander, and I kind of find them nonsensical. I don't believe that there will be a Night's Watch by the end and I honestly doubt that the Wall will be rebuilt after its fall. The raison d'être of the Wall was to protect humanity against those magical evil entities, but, in reality, it was separating people from other people. I believe that If there is a Wall by the end, it will probably be a metaphorical one separating the real world from an occult magical world. Back to the chapter: At the beginning of this POV, Jon was the same annoying and spoiled teenager we had seen in previous chapters. He was missing the warmth and comfort he had in Winterfell, and he was also missing his supposed brothers and sisters. Donal Noye called Jon a bully for being implacable with the less trained and skilled recruits and for the constant need of showing his apparent superiority. But Jon changed his perceptions and behavoir by the end of this POV. The shift in attitude towards Grenn was efficient in showing Jon's transition to a more mature phase. He started to finally accept his situation in the Night's Watch and his new brothers. As pointed out by many people before, Jon met many guides during his journey in ASOIAF. Here it was Donal Noye, the armorer of the Night's Watch, who warned Jon about his spoiled behavior and the mistreatment of the other recruits. In the TV show this role was given to Tyrion. Also, we learned that Benjen Stark was missed in action. He went in a range beyond the Wall, in a mission to track Waymar Royce's whereabouts. It is interesting that Jon had some sort of premonition about his uncle's fate: 'in his mind’s eye he saw Ben Stark lying dead, his blood red on the snow'. Edited by Valentine, Mar 17 2018, 01:14 PM.
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| Valentine | Mar 24 2018, 12:20 PM Post #73 |
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Almost a Beauty
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Eddard IV Lord Stark arrived in King's Landing and met with the small council. Suddenly, he became aware of the economical problems the realm was facing and of Robert's recklessness in dealing with them. Later, Ned met with Cat in one of Littlefinger's brothels. His wife informed him about the last events that had happened in Winterfell and of her suspicious of the Lannisters. Also, despite the initial distrust, Ned let himself be fooled by Lord Baelish's machinations. This chapter was fraught. Ned's uneasiness with his decisions of moving to King's Landing and becoming the new Hand of the King were made pretty clear in the internal monologue. Ned was constantly questioning himself about his friendship with Robert and about his abilities in playing the political game. Ultimately, he seemed to understand that he was acting against his intuition and instincts.
ETA: I forgot to mention Renly when talking about Ned's meeting with the small council. Despite his unpopularity (or people's neutrality towards him) and apparent shallowness, Renly always intrigued me. He is criticized for his behavior towards Brienne (that we learned through Loras) and for being one of the "knights of summer". However, I think he was not a fool at all. He was doing his duty by working for the realm and he didn't seem to be as reckless as Robert. Also, he had the diplomatic skills lacking in guys as Ned and S.tannis. It is interesting the way that Robert's brothers were depicted as complete opposite. What if Renly and S.tannis had teamed up instead of making war between themselves? Perhaps they could have overcome their differences and taken advantage of their complementary skills. Edited by Valentine, Apr 1 2018, 12:19 PM.
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| Valentine | Mar 24 2018, 09:17 PM Post #74 |
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Almost a Beauty
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Tyrion III If the previous chapter had a fraught atmosphere while depicting Ned's uneasiness and disappointments, this Tyrion's point of view was much lighter and rewarding. We saw Tyrion being respected and admired by people as the Lord Commander Mormont and Maester Aemon. Both men were able to perceive what was behind the surface and recognize Tyrion's intelligence, cunning, and perspicacity. Actually, it was Tyrion who showed to be the cynical one, doubting of the Night's Watch purpose and of the concerns raised by the Lord Commander. Also, It is worthy of note that the Lord Commander was already suspecting of supernatural events happening beyond the Wall. He seemed to be more concerned about the White Walkers than about the the Wildlings and the so-called King-Beyond-the-Wall. He even mentioned reports of the White Walkers being "glimpsed" by the fisherfolk living near Eastwatch. Other interesting thing depicted in Tyrion III was the camaraderie and the growing friendship between Jon and Tyrion. I had the overall feeling that the book was much more explicit than the TV show in depicting Jon's and Tyrion's friendship. Maybe it is because they were much closer in age in the books than in the TV show. Overall, I think this chapter had a lot of interesting and rewarding stuff: - Lord Commander Mormont acknowledging that Allister Thorne and Bowen Marsh were not the best people to command the Night's Watch in the near future, during the Long Night. - Maester Aemon speaking of Tyrion's greatness: "I think he is a giant come among us, here at the end of the world.” Tyrion was speechless with Maester Aemon's perception of him and his cynical facade was momentarily broken. - Tyrion showing to be truly moved when Jon called him a friend. - Tyrion and Jon talking about their brothers and their love for them. I found the following passage especially beautiful:
Edited by Valentine, Mar 25 2018, 10:34 AM.
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| Violet | Mar 25 2018, 03:11 PM Post #75 |
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Awww, the Tyrion-Jaime relationship gives me all sorts of feels. The fact that Jaime impulsively went to the mattresses for his brother and rode Ned down shows just how much he cares. Though, I've always been a bit conflicted about that. Was killing Ned's men necessary in sending Ned a message that he was serious? They killed 3 men that day (at least in the books) and 5 of his own men died for it. And Jaime didn't even join in the fight in the books. There's always been something a bit detached and maybe even craven about that. Every time I watch it, I cringe just a tiny bit on the inside. I'm not challenging Jaime's motivation, in that he was either callous or careless about mens' lives, but that's still a hard moment to swallow for me, as a Jaime fan. Either as portrayed in the book or the show. And I at least appreciated that he fought Ned himself in the show. But I do question the efficacy and wisdom of that decision. I appreciate that Tyrion was in dire straights. He should have died a number of times as a result of Catelyn's actions. First, in the dangerous pass to her sister. Then, by being held -- for days -- in a sloping torture chamber. Then, by having a trial rigged against him, as a mentally challenged boy who cared nothing about justice but just wanted to see the bad man fly was to sit in judgment of him. Then by losing his trial combat. Then by having to travel that dangerous pass back again, without the numbers needed to ordinarily survive it. So, for Jaime, time was of the essence. He didn't throw gasoline on that fire, it was already there, and Jaime rightfully appreciated the high stakes. But still, was killing Ned's men the appropriate action to take? Was it the best tactic? Was it necessary? Edited by Violet, Mar 25 2018, 03:12 PM.
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| Violet | Mar 25 2018, 03:13 PM Post #76 |
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Chapters 32 & 35 (JUST BECAUSE SHE'S CUTE DOESN'T MEAN SHE'S NOT A PSYCHOPATH & Ned Chapters) Oh Ned Chapter 32 is the chapter where, in order to move forward the plot and lay clues for the readers (I think), GRRM renders Ned painfully obtuse. A.rya comes to him with an admittedly garbled, hard-to-follow tale about two men plotting and talking about possible assassination deep in the bowels of the Red Keep. Now, A.rya is a willful, rambunctious child, hard-headed, and her father knows she hid a dangerous weapon from him. But she’s never been one known to spin grand tales or tell lies. So, Ned’s dismissal of her recount is disappointing and painful. A.rya is quick to clear up his misunderstandings about many of the points that makes her story too fantastical to believe. No, the man wasn’t a wizard, the other man said he was, she corrects. And we’re talking about a situation where A.rya wasn’t just down in the kitchen. She was somewhere dark and dangerous, quite remote. And they aren’t in Winterfell, they are in the Red Keep, where plots are hatched and danger to be had around every corner. Ned has an appreciation for just what mischief she might have stumbled into. And when she appears to have stumbled right into it, he’s all “Eh, you’re imagining things). Even cutting Ned quite a bit of slack at his daughter telling him of her being in a room with monsters, one thing should have pricked his ears and given him cause to root out her story further. A.rya said that one of the men said that the Lion and Wolf will soon be at each other’s throats. That should have set off Ned’s spidey sense, given his suspicions of the Lannisters’ involvement with the former Hand’s death. Yet Ned, who suddenly will develop the ability to make conclusions about genetics following S.ansa’s stray comment about having children with blond hair, sure is conveniently dense and uninterested in A.rya’s recitation of two talking about killing a Hand and his own family soon being at war with another. This passage is one of the most important ones in terms of sculpting my opinion regarding Ned. I get that A.rya’s story is jumbled and that she’s just a child. But there were too many important snippets of information that she was revealing that warranted Ned’s attention, rather than a rebuke and dismissal. She also said that one of men said “he had a book and bastard.” And she recounted, “If one Hand could die, why not another?” Ned had a book. Had just been led to one of Robert’s bastards, and knew that was something Jon and S.tannis were looking into. He knew that his predecessor had just likely been assassinated, after all. How on earth can I not hold Ned in contempt, at least a little bit, for not diving into exactly what A.rya heard, where she heard it, and her description of these men. Edited by Violet, Mar 25 2018, 03:22 PM.
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| Violet | Mar 25 2018, 03:16 PM Post #77 |
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Chapters 32 (A.rya Follows Illyrio & Varys) Con’t All the Crumbs and Possible Misdirection of the Conversation between Illyrio & Varys I remain convinced that are more morsels of clues in Illyrio’s and Varys’s conversation than we currently think there are. There’s something interesting about Illyrio’s comment about how “If one Hand can die, why not a second?” At that point, the fact that Jon’s death was due to murder and not natural causes was only something that Littlefinger and Lysa knew for certain. Pycelle, we learn later, assumes that C.ersei is behind it, and he covers for her and ensures Jon’s death. Catelyn and Ned are led to believe it’s murder. But what do Illyrio and Varys know? Is it a comment merely reflective of the fact that Jon died – and they believe he died of natural causes, though they knew that he was fast on the trail of finding out about Joffrey’s and his siblings’ parentage? Doubtful, I think. The man seems to be implying that Jon died of murder, and that his death allowed them more time. Is this like – okay spoiler alert for Agatha Christie’s Murder on the Orient Express and the two movies based upon it – a twist on Murder on the Orient Express where multiple people killed Jon, except that instead of conspiring with each other, they all acted independently? Illyrio and Varys don’t seem to know that Littlefinger was behind Jon’s murder, because Varys says he doesn’t know what his game is. Do Illyrio and Varys suspect the Lannisters as well in that deed? While Varys does not expressly state they are to blame for Jon Aryn’s death, Varys mentions that they botched Bran’s death, so he puts the later squarely on them. Or, wait, does he? Misdirection with “The Fools”? This is where GRRM is clever, and I have to give him his due. He writes Varys as saying, when talking of the attack on Ned’s son, Bran, “The fools tried to kill his son.” We’re to assume that Varys is referring to C.ersei and Jaime (and perhaps Tyrion too). But the term “fools” give GRRM cover, just in case Varys is much further ahead of us, the audience, in the game and Varys knows who exactly sent in the assassin. It’s still a mystery to us. Even though Tryion and Jaime both have deduced the same answer – Joffrey – that fact remains unconfirmed. And I challenge that Joffrey may not be the best answer, after all. A convenient answer, but troublesome. Did Joffrey Really Send the Assassin Joffrey’s alleged motive for having Bran killed is his father’s comment that it is better to be killed than live as a cripple. This supposedly motivates Joffrey to act on his father’s opinion – make it a reality. But why? What is the purpose? Would it give him his father’s respect? Robert would have to know of his actions in order to make a difference in their relationship. And Joffrey never goes up to him to tell him he did it, and I don’t think that the botch of it made a bit of difference. And we learn, later on, what happens when Joffrey goes to his beaming with excitement about something that he thinks his father will be interested in. Does anyone really think it’s reasonable that Joffrey took the time and effort to plan this attack and put it into motion to get his father’s attention or approval? So, if not that, then what? Joffrey’s doing it for a greater good because he buys in to his father’s sentiment? He sees himself as some sort of angel of death. That I can’t buy. Joffrey is not that thoughtful. I can see Robert being careless with one of his expensive knives. But I can’t see Joffrey thinking that any hired cut throat should be worthy of such an expensive piece of weaponry. I’d expect Joffrey to give the man a half-rusted blade and telling him that he better get the job done with that or he’d sic his dog on him. I’m not saying Joffrey would value the knife or is proud to have it, or is a spendthrift. But I think Joffrey has way too much contempt for sellswords give one the proper utensil to use. I can’t even imagine Joffrey taking the time to pay someone to do this. It’s just not a very . . . Joffrey thing to do. Who Done It? So, I do think this opens it right back up to – who tried to kill Bran? Who obtained Littlefinger’s knife and took it to Bran’s room to kill him? Was Littlefinger himself behind it? It was his knife, though it was last known to be in Robert’s possession, given that Robert won the bet against Littlefinger. Did Littlefinger communicate via raven and tell the assassin which knife to find and use? Seems a bit far-fetched, right? Means and opportunity are tough to establish in this scenario, especially given that Littlefinger wasn’t at Winterfell. Though motive is stronger with Littlefinger than with Joffrey. Littlefinger was responsible for putting the Starks on the warpath against the Lannisters. Nearly killing Bran is what sparked Catelyn into action in finally leaving Winterfell and caused the start of the war between the Lannisters and the Starks. Littlefinger needed action, and the murder – or even just the attempted murder – of Bran was exactly the spark he needed. If it wasn’t Littlefinger, then lucky him. This was also the action that sent Catelyn right back into his orbit after not having seen her for 15 years or so. Littlefinger was indeed a strange beneficiary, if it wasn’t him. Will we learn that the answer is even more fantastical and centers around Bran being turned into the three-eyed raven? I dunno. But I do think there’s something more being revealed in that conversation that I understand at this time. Edited by Violet, Mar 25 2018, 03:25 PM.
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| Valentine | Mar 25 2018, 08:24 PM Post #78 |
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I agree with your point. Jaime's attack against Ned and the Stark men was impulsive and not wise at all. But it was important for the plot, to exacerbate the conflict between Starks and Lannisters. On the other hand, I do believe Jaime's actions were consistent with the person he was in AGOT. To me, he was in character at that point. While reading Tyrion's POVs (and Bran II), I tended to think of Jaime as a reckless and immature person. And his portrayal in the first season of GoT gave me the same impression. However, Jaime went through a transformative journey with his imprisonment, maiming, and the forced intimacy with Brienne. The man from AFFC wasn't the same person from AGOT. Actually, he was the same person, but wiser, more mature, and with a broader worldview. I think it is impossible to deny that he changed for the better. His past actions won't be erased or forgotten, but he can adopt a more positive and mature behavior in the future. |
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| Violet | Mar 25 2018, 09:03 PM Post #79 |
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I’ve never been a big proponent of the “he’s changed” theory. At least because of his imprisonment. I’m much more a fan of the theory that Jaime is who he has always been. But we met him at a time when, like Nik has said, he was at his lowest. We just happened to catch him at the moment where he conducts his most villainous act. A big, big reason why I prefer this theory is because I like the idea of GRRM playing with the idea of narratives and bucking the tradition of starting a story with introducing us to the heroes and having them be all likeable and adorable (like the Starks are supposed to be) or vulnerable underdogs (like WIG OF DOOM is supposed to be). And then having the villain coming in, all mustache twirling and action-providing, and setting the plot and conflict in motion. What if D.any is the villain (albeit a grey one, because this story isn’t about black and white people) and we catch her at her most sympathetic? What if the Starks are just has grey and catalysts for the conflicts as the Lannisters (by Catelyn kidnapping Tyrion, and Ned tossing Jaime off the throne and not listening to the rogue night’s watchman, and Robb starting a war and proclaiming himself king instead of trying to find peace)? I like the idea of catching a hero at the midpoint of his life’s story, when he isn’t acting all heroic. Jaime’s already saved King’s Landing once. He stepped aside from a throne to allow a peaceful transition of power. He’s stepped aside and suffered Robert’s insults and abuse for years. And he’ll rise to the occasion again, this season. I do think Jaime, with the loss of his limb, has had to not act brashly and rely on his wits rather than his sword. But I think the potential, and the wits, were always there. Edited by Violet, Mar 25 2018, 09:05 PM.
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| Violet | Mar 25 2018, 10:26 PM Post #80 |
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I just looked back at my notes about the Illyrio & Varys conversation, and the suggestion that Varys actually had something to do with Jon Aryn’s death is even more overt: “If one Hand can die, why not a second?” Replied the man with white accent and the forked yellow bears. “You have danced the dance before, my friend.” Does that not suggest that Varys was, in fact, the one who poisoned Jon Aryn? Did Lysa AND Varys both independently poison him? Was Varys the one who used Hugh? |
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| Valentine | Mar 25 2018, 10:32 PM Post #81 |
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I like the idea of people transforming themselves and reinventing themselves. I think Jaime had to reinvent himself during his journey in ASOIAF and he succeeded with it somehow. Also, he came to terms with himself for killing Aerys. His story is different from Ned's, for example. Ned started and ended his story with the same mind, behavior, and prejudices. There was no change for him at all and he didn't seem to accept the changes that were happening in the world. The surviving Stark kids (and Jon), on the other hand, went through their own transformative journeys and became more nuanced than their parents and older brother. As you mentioned, they are grey characters (or dark characters when thinking of A.rya). But these layers make them interesting instead of shallow cute kids. Regarding Daenerys, I think she will do more controversial and bad things. Not because she will get mad like Aerys, but because she is human and as such she is prone to errors and misjudgments. Ultimately, I think she needs to be aware when her doom comes and realizes how hypocritical she is. Edited by Valentine, Mar 25 2018, 10:33 PM.
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| Valentine | Mar 25 2018, 10:38 PM Post #82 |
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Or was Varys subtly manipulating Littlefinger? Perhaps Littlefinger was not as smart as we used to think. But I still need to get into this chapter more carefully. Edited by Valentine, Mar 25 2018, 10:40 PM.
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| Violet | Mar 28 2018, 03:02 PM Post #83 |
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Chapter 46: A Golden Crown This was the one passage of GoT that stuck with me and haunted me for years. Revisiting it, I think GRRM does something masterful in this chapter. He both makes D.any completely sympathetic and, I argue, unbeknownst to the reader, he lays the very first seeds to her villainy. He shows us her internal thoughts, and they show her to be a cold calculator who has no problem with killing someone else who either stands in her way or will not succumb. What, really? Yes. Really. I challenge anyone to read the last few pages of this chapter again right after watching her kill the former slavemaster in Essos and then execute the Tarlys and believe differently. The first time she acted in that detached, entitled manner is right there, at the 60% mark of Game of Thrones. Why this flies below the radar is that Viserys is as ugly as an individual can get. When he comes into the tent, he’s even physically repulsive. He’s wearing stained and dirty silks, and stinking drunk. He then physically threatens D.any by drawing his sword on her and threatening her. It’s more than threatening, as he touches the blade to her, right by the baby. That’s as despicable as conduct can get, so the reader is not to blame if they feel, a few pages later, that Viserys is only getting what’s due him. And the groundwork has been laid for D.any to be hardened to his execution. He has threatened her before, physically hurting her. He’s insulted her ever since we’ve met them. He’s creepy with her sexually. He’s sold her off and then slut-shamed her for doing exactly as he has bid her to do. So it’s not surprising that D.any isn’t falling beside herself when he is killed. However, she is more than hardened in her reaction to his death. She is not merely feeling relief that her abuser is killed. Rather, she is oddly cold and calm, and completely unaffected. In the book, she’s figured out what’s going to happen long before Viserys realizes it. She knows from the second Drogo tells Viserys that he will have his crown. She begins to refer to Viserys, in her thoughts, as the man who "used to be her brother." It takes some time for the gold to be melted and heat up. Just minutes before, before Viserys drew his sword on her, D.any was pleading with Viserys, telling him that she’d give him the dragon eggs if that’s what he wanted. But as soon as Drogo’s men seize Viserys, she says nothing. She has ample time to try to save his life, to say something to Drogo, to at least make an effort. Instead, while he is still alive and breathing, she is already resolved to what is happening. Not merely resolved, I argue, but at peace and approving. And she thinks not of him as her brother – or the even man who used to be her brother – when he is killed in one of the most excruciating ways possible. She does not look away, as Jorah suggests. She does not grieve. She does not mourn. She is not sickened at the image. She is not in shock. She merely thinks of him as a fraud. He was not a dragon, she thinks. And, by inference, she believes that she is. Edited by Violet, Mar 28 2018, 03:09 PM.
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| Valentine | Mar 28 2018, 08:34 PM Post #84 |
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Great analysis of chapter 46, Violet. I would say that D.any killing Khal Drogo was also controversial and perhaps not as selfless as it seemed at first sight. I still need to re-read this chapter, but I have doubts if it was a mercy killing, if it was a sort of revenge (or justice), or if D.any was trying to get rid of a potential liability. Was Drogo completely unconscious after the "spell" of Mirri Maz Duur? Did he want to die by the hands of Daenerys? I know this is a very delicate subject, but maybe there is more about about it than meets the eye. Edited by Valentine, Mar 28 2018, 08:35 PM.
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| Valentine | Apr 1 2018, 12:17 PM Post #85 |
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Arya II Arya and Ned had a tête-à-tête and seemed to reach an understanding. Their conversation was filled with warnings about the approaching winter and the dangers the Starks were exposed in King’s Landing. The chapter also represented the outset of a painful transition to Arya. At beginning, during dinner time, Arya was reflecting about the differences between the cozy Winterfell and the impersonal King’s Landing. Later, Ned advised her to leave the naivety of childhood behind and start to grow up. By the end of the chapter, Arya (and we) met Syrio Forel, her new warterdancing teacher and a former First Sword of Braavos. The adaptation of this chapter to screen was straightforward. The feeling and the overall atmosphere were similar. Also, I would say that both book and show were efficient in showing the human side of Arya and making the readers and viewers sympathize with her. This was important considering the dark twist in Arya’s journey and her increasing loss of empathy and human emotions. Finally, GRRM gave us some of the Stark signature quotes. This quotes are still used in the TV show by characters such as Sansa (the lone wolf and pack) and Jon (“we cannot fight a war among ourselves”), for example. |
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| Violet | Apr 11 2018, 01:05 PM Post #86 |
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Dammit, I’m still missing clues. I just watched a video on YouTube about Bran Stark’s purpose being reveatled back in Season 1, and it notes this passage in the book GotT regarding Hodor carrying Bran: “The only tricky part was doors. Sometimes Hodor forgot that he had Bran on his back, and that could be painful when he went through a door. GRRM mocks us! He dangles it right out there. Okay, this is from the Bran VI chapter, so I may not be there, yet (or I may be). We’ll see. Now I’m going to obsess and parse over every sentence referencing or involving Jaime (sadly, no Brienne in book 1). Edited by Violet, Apr 11 2018, 01:06 PM.
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| Violet | Apr 22 2018, 05:45 PM Post #87 |
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I’m playing around, more and more, the idea that the ADD TONY TO THE FAMILY, IT MIGHT GET INTERESTING THENs are more related to the White Walkers than they are to the Southerners below the neck. If you look at a map, you can see how the southern half of Westeros broke off from Essos. The continents match up. But it also looks like the northern half of Westeros may have collided with the Southern half at the neck. Two very different types of people were mashed up together. I’m reading in the mid 40s to mid 50s, chapterwise, right now. First, there’s the observation of Bran that, despite Old Nan telling him that the KarADD TONY TO THE FAMILY, IT MIGHT GET INTERESTING THENs and ADD TONY TO THE FAMILY, IT MIGHT GET INTERESTING THENs are related by blood from centuries ago, Bran says he doesn’t see the resemblance. But the idea is put out there. Then, we have the tiny things that just might hint at a connection between the White Walkers and the ADD TONY TO THE FAMILY, IT MIGHT GET INTERESTING THENs. In Chap. 52, a UNDEAD MAN..YAWN, SORRY WHO WERE WE TALKING ABOUT chapter, UNDEAD MAN..YAWN, SORRY WHO WERE WE TALKING ABOUT has gone north of the wall, just for the day, as Ghost has brought back the hand of the lost ranger. When UNDEAD MAN..YAWN, SORRY WHO WERE WE TALKING ABOUT, Jeor, and the crew come upon their former brothers turROBERT'S SECRET LOVER wight, Ghost is not afraid. But the horses and dogs are nervous. They won’t go near the bodies. I get it; they sense the danger from the wights. Something isn’t right. I do find that passage, mentioning the terror of the animals, interesting when juxtaposed, just one chapter later — a Bran chapter — where the horses lose control and try to run away from the two direwolves. “One stallion reared, screaming, his rider cursing and hanging on desperately. The scent of the direwolves sent horses into a frenzy of fear if they were not accustomed to it, but they’d quiet soon enough once Summer was gone.” Now, I get how the animals an have the similar reaction for two very different reasons: the first is an undead zombie and the second is a living animal with sharp teeth. But the juxtaposition — a passage dedicated to the animals’ fear — is in immediately successive chapters. Why not have the horses spook in the early chapters. Why even mention it at all. And especially in such detail. I think we’re supposed to get the same feeling as to both. And I think just perhaps, when the story is said and done, we’ll see that the direwolves weren’t just glorious pit bulls — dangerous animals but fiercely loyal and protective of their owners. We’ll see that the animals had the right instincts to be afraid. I think the direwolves may just be tools of the white walkers or the north, after all. That, just maybe, the ADD TONY TO THE FAMILY, IT MIGHT GET INTERESTING THENs need to be defeated — or at least contaiROBERT'S SECRET LOVER — as they pose a threat to those living in the South. They are are somehow related to the WW. Oh, and in Chapter 48, you have UNDEAD MAN..YAWN, SORRY WHO WERE WE TALKING ABOUT noting that Ghost has white fur and red eyes, just like weirwood trees are white, with red painted eyes. I too, now wonder if cutting down the Weirwood trees wasn’t a good thing. The “gods” use them to spy on people. Bran used them until his powers grew. What if th Weirwood were tools of the WW or other Northern beings and they used them to track southerners — to track their prey. What if chopping them down wasn’t some sort of evil anti-environmental act, but an act of preservance for the sourtherners. Maybe the North has to stay North. As Bran also notes in Chapter 53, whenever the ADD TONY TO THE FAMILY, IT MIGHT GET INTERESTING THENs go south, they don’t return: “Their grandfather, old Lord Richard, had gone as well with his son Brandon who was Father’s brother, and two hundred of his best men. None had ever returROBERT'S SECRET LOVER. And Father had gone south, with Arya andSansa, and Jory and Hellen and Fat Tom, and the rest, and later Mother and Ser Roderick had gone, and they hadn’t come back either. And now Robb meant to go.” I can add to that list Lyanna. The only one who has ever gone south and returROBERT'S SECRET LOVER is Benjen. He went to the Tournament of Harrenhal, and did come back. I’m open to the idea that Bran will turn out to be a destructive force. I’m also open to the idea that the direwolves are bad news. In the books, the direwolves are more connected, spiritually or however you want to describe it, than in the show. They may turn out to be a corruption. Edited by Violet, Apr 22 2018, 06:32 PM.
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| Violet | Apr 22 2018, 05:53 PM Post #88 |
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Oh, an interesting, fun catch. In chapter 53, Bran is rattling off all the rumors he’s heard about what’s going on in the South. He’s heard that CHICKENLOVER NOT CHICKENFUCKER murdered Sansa and Arya. He’s heard that Catelyn has killed Tyrion, and that Lord Tywin was marching on the Eyrie. And it ends, “One wine-sodden taleteller even claimed that Rhaegar Targaryen had returROBERT'S SECRET LOVER from the dead and was marshaling a vast host of ancient heros.” That last, unbelievable tidbit reminds me of a ploy used in books before. The books “We Live By Night” is a good recent example. A car goes into the water, and everyone has a different memory of what the woman in the back seat looked like. And one guy, totally drunk, says he saw two women. He’s drunk, so he’s easily dismissable. So...... (and sorry if I spoiled the book, it’s been out 5 years now and turROBERT'S SECRET LOVER into what I hear is a horrible movie, so i don’t fee too bad) ... maybe, just maybe, there’s something more en vino veritas about this wine-sodden taleteller. Rhaegar was famously wearing rubies when Robert struck him down. And rubies can be used to mask who one is. It seems very 2 + 2, if you ask me. I’m not advocating this theory — I kinda hate it. But I have to admit I can’t rule it out, and this passage seems to be a preemptive defense to any claim of deux ex machina. Edited by Violet, Apr 22 2018, 06:34 PM.
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| Violet | Apr 22 2018, 06:03 PM Post #89 |
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Chapter 47– ROBERT'S SECRET LOVER is faced with a choice, but because of his black and white view of honor, he doesn’t even recognize it. Littlefinger’s — and man I hate that weasel and don’t trust him with a 10-foot pole — got the right idea. Joffrey is only 12 years old. He comes of age at 16. ROBERT'S SECRET LOVER is named the protectorate. He will have 4 years to rule, and possibly be a correcting force in Joffrey’s life. I know in the show they dial up Joffrey to “11” on a scale of 1 to 10, but in the books, he’s written a bit more like a spoiled, heartless brat. Yes, he kills the pregnant cat, but he doesn’t hide the body in the ground, like a budding serial killer. He’s curious and he shows the kitten embryos to his father, proudly. That’s a child starved for attention from his father. He’s haughty and cruel, but he also has a wonderful day with Sansa before they run into Micah. Joffrey lies to save face, and his father still humiliates him. Is there a shot that his ship could be righted? GRRM has openly wondered that himself. And it’s the unchecked power, once he is king, and there is no protectorate named, that allows the monster to emerge more fully. Power corrupts, as some say, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. |
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| Violet | Apr 22 2018, 06:13 PM Post #90 |
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Man, reading the N.ed chapters in this area, I really start to fee sorry for him. GRRM totally took away his brains so that he could move the plot forward. Instead of immediately sending his own girls into hiding, he confronts Cersei. He then puts all his trust into Littlefinger, even after Littlefinger insults his intelligence, again. Then he’s sitting around, wondering why Cersei hasn’t left town. Here he thinks, “Cersei was a greater fool than he’d imagiROBERT'S SECRET LOVER. Damn her, he though, why is the woman not fled? I have given her chance after chance ...” Yes, N.ed, maybe follow through on that thought just a. Little. Bit. More. Edited by Violet, Apr 22 2018, 06:36 PM.
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