| Racism/Immigration; Your thoughts on it. | |
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| Topic Started: Jan 29 2012, 09:09 AM (409 Views) | |
| Some_Kind_Of_Monster | Jan 29 2012, 09:09 AM Post #1 |
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Since me being a Pole living in Scotland and been exposed to different opinions about foreigners coming to the country. I would like to hear or see what are your opinions on that. I don't want to hear some definitions you read somewhere or googled it, I want to know your personal opinions. Is racism only possible to people of different colour or nationality as well? I do realise this is a delicate subject and people have a right to different opinions on it, but please stay respectful. |
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| Voxx | Jan 29 2012, 10:06 AM Post #2 |
Poor Twisted Me
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As far as I'm concerned there really isn't such thing as "race" per say. Race isn't real. It's a social construction that people experience every day as being real. I would argue that is the experience of racism that is the problem in the world. People use race as a way to justify past historical oppression and discrimination on that basis that there is a hierarchy of races, with whites being at the top. Do I believe this? No, it's ridiculous. I live in Canada and we've always been relatively welcoming of immigrant populations. Our Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantees people of all races, religions, ethnicity and sex to the same rights and freedoms as everyone else. Because of this, people tend to speak very politically correct here. Thus, when we read about stories of extreme racism around the world, a lot of us shake our heads in disbelief, because while it still happens here in Canada, it's not nearly as prevalent as in other countries. I've grown up and almost been blind to different "races". In elementary school, half of the class was white and the other half not. My secondary school had one of the best English as a second language programs in the province, so there was a high volume of immigrant children and a mix of different races. For me personally, race means absolutely nothing. I just don't see it as the issue that it obviously is elsewhere in the world. But that's not to say that it isn't here in Canada. Currently, we have a conservatice federal government in power that has historically tended to be less welcoming when it comes to Canada's immigrant population. In many cases, I think it's politicians who incite racism in other people. Some of these conservative politicians have made claims about immigrants stealing jobs from Canadians, which absolutely ludicrous. The reality is, native Canadians are not having children. We have a declining birth rate and our population isn't growing naturally. The only way for the population to grow is through immigration. Thus, there is no way immigrants are stealing jobs. Furthermore, once immigrants emigrate from their home country and come to Canada, many of them become Canadians. You can't steal jobs from Canadians if you are a Canadian. It's so stupid if you ask me. Furthermore, I think it's incorrect when people assume that white people don't experience racism towards them, though it's obviously less common and maybe more subtle. I happen to be in an inter-racial relationship. My boyfriend is South East Asian. His parents came to Canada in their late teens as refugees from Laos. Despite living in Canada for twenty plus years, his parents still maintain an "us and them (you)" mentality. I can't tell you how many times they've spoken to me and told me about how "my" people (white people) have done terrible things in the world or been oppressive against other cultures and races. It actually makes me kind of angry. Yes, white colonial regimes did terrible things to people in the colonized world. I'm not denying that. But I didn't do that. Don't put that on to me. I feel like it's a little unfair to lay that burden on my shoulders and expect me to take responsibility for something that happened a few hundred years ago and is beyond my control. That being said, I understand the frustration that many marginalized people in the world. But making accusations against other people isn't going to bridge that gap between these "different races". People just need to realize that race isn't really real. It is only experience as real. I happen to live, right now while I go to school, in what is considered the most multicultural city in Canada; and yet I still get weird looks when I walk down the street with my boyfriend hand in hand. And I happen to think it's ridiculous. People that have issues with race and practice racism are just ignorant people. People really need to get over themselves as far as I'm concerned. I've been fortunate enough to travel world a bit and visit other countries. There have been a few times where I've been speechless at the blatant racism I've seen. It's really quite sad that it's happening. |
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| Metfuk | Jan 29 2012, 11:21 AM Post #3 |
Don't Tread On Me
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I don't think so. Let me give an example: On tv now, there's this commercial for a dating website that is only intended for 'high educated' people. Wtf? So the level education makes you better than others? I think it's a form of racism. Just because someone is not the college-type means that they are not intelligent? It's just stupid and it should not get in the way of dating. On to the main subject: I think all humans are in general equal. I do not give a shit about skin colours. I think it's cool that we have some diversity in the world when it comes to that. Also, it bothers me that people think the culture outside of their own country is the same as in their own country. Like I have been on apprentice on a ship and we visited Middle America. The other apprentice often had fights with the locals because he was bitching that they should work harder or better. But he just didn't understand that it's not their culture. He expected everybody to be like in the Netherlands it seems. I tried to explain his problem to him, but of course he didn't wanna listen and was always calling them monkeys and shit like that. But I noticed he was the typical right wing guy and he also complained a lot about immigrants in our country. Immigrants.. always interesting as I may become an immigrant in another country myself sometime. I think immigrants should try to adapt as much as possible, without crossing the lines of their own comfortzone. So that means learning the language and have a general knowledge on what is appropriate in the culture of the country they live in (just to avoid embarrassing or offensive situations). I have nothing against them and I often wonder what attracted them to my country in the first place, as I feel the grass must be greener somewhere else. In my country there has been a discussion for years about muslim immigrants. Some right wing politicians want to make a law that makes it forbidden for muslim women to wear burkas. I think it's stupid. If they want to wear them or if it's their religion or habit, just fucking let them be! |
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| Voxx | Jan 29 2012, 11:51 AM Post #4 |
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Poor Twisted Me
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In response... "Let me give an example: On tv now, there's this commercial for a dating website that is only intended for 'high educated' people. Wtf? So the level education makes you better than others? I think it's a form of racism. Just because someone is not the college-type means that they are not intelligent? It's just stupid and it should not get in the way of dating." I think you're mistaking this for elitism. Racism is only concerned with skin colour and ethnicity. I would agree that there is an apparent mainstream acceptance of this kind elitism, or the idea that having a college/university education makes you smarter or better than other people. While I don't think having more education makes you better, I would argue that this kind of thinking is the curse of our generation! We live in a world now where unless you want to work retail or do manual labour the rest of your life, you kind of need a college education. And even now, getting a BA isn't enough anymore. Many people feel the need to pursue MAs or Phds, often putting themselves into copious amounts of debt just for a piece of paper to hang on their wall. I'm not knocking on people who don't pursue higher education, I'm just saying I understand how this kind of culture arose. I mean, I know what it's like to work in a factory. I work in a food production plant during the summers in between my school, and I tell you I have a lot of respect for the people who work there day in and day out. It's a hard way to make a living. But back to your original point about the commercial for a that particular dating site - yeah i would agree that could be construed as offensive and borderline inappropriate. But, by the same toke, I've seen commercials for Christians only dating sites or sites for people with "high moral values" only. So, you kind of need to ask yourself, what makes one more appropriate than the other? But back to the the question of race, you mention the laws against Muslin women prohibiting their burkas. I believe these laws were passed in France and I think that in Quebec, the National Assembly is proposing similar laws if I'm not mistaken. While I don't agree with the laws, I understand where they are coming from. Modern France has made an effort to become a purely secular state, whereupon all religion and not just Islam is encouraged to be firmly kept in the private sphere. This would include the wearing of Burkas in public. That being said, I think a Muslim woman can wear in burka in public and keep her religion in the private sphere at the same time. It's like a Christian who wears a cross around their neck. In fact, I think France (correct me if I'm mistaken) actually passed a law, or proposed passing a law, that banned all religious apparel including wearing crosses of the star of david on a chain. I agree that state should be separate from religion and that secularism should be practiced by the state because not everyone is obviously going to adhere to the same religion. If the state supports one religion over another, then its not fully representing all of its people, the way a state should, or at least a democratic state should. Thus, secularism would be the safest route. So though, while I don't agree with the French law, I understand the reasoning and methodology behind it. And I would argue that the law isn't based on racism, rather its based on the French government's perceived need for secularism, because of the volatile nature of France's religious past. In Canada, we have a law that says Muslim women must uncover their faces with they get their photos taken for their driver's licenses. They also have to show their faces if they want to vote in a federal election. I know this because I worked as an electoral officer during the last election. They don't have to show a man, they can show a woman just to make sure that they are who their ID says they are. I don't think that is a racist requirement at all. I think its purely common sense. Again, it goes back to religion being a private and internal matter. All that being said, I still do agree that race ultimately means nothing and that we're all human beings and equal. Edited by Voxx, Jan 29 2012, 12:49 PM.
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| Lifer | Jan 29 2012, 12:31 PM Post #5 |
Cowboys From Hell
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Racism: It's a bunch of bullshit. I do not have a problem what so ever with color or religion ect. I find everybody to be equal in this world. When people play the race card against each other that's just mean and hurtful and so not necessary I also find it to be immature. I also hate when people play the race card and bring in their cultures history it's just like come on people really? I just find religion and racism a way to break up cultures and make people clash. Immigration: Since I'm born and raised in America I'm gonna speak on the whole American situation with immigration. America at the moment is in such debt that its stupid. Americans are having hard time finding jobs. Americans are in general having a rough time. Overpopulation leads to lower chances of finding a job, more supplies that are flying off the shelves, more homes being taken or built, and other things. Yes most of our population is Americans but if we pushed out all the immigrants our population would go down and that means things we need in our everyday lives will get a bit of a higher chance of us getting it. We got Illegal immigrants/legal immigrants that get in and get jobs, when hard working Americans that are barely making it need it more, and then we are stuck with no jobs because either 1. An immigrant took the job at a lower price or 2. It's just overpopulated. Now I'm not saying all immigrants don't deserve the American freedom and a wonderful job ect. but if America wants to get better it needs to start making some serious changes starting with population and that I think should start with immigration not because their different colored or whatever but because America don't need no more people in the country and that's the truth. Point is America needs to help America and not worry bout immigrants and im not saying to forget people that are dying because of starvation over in India or whatever but we need to help ourselves first and take care of ourselves first before we start shelling out goods and money to others that are also in need. I know that probably sounds sick but it's the cold hard truth I see millionaires donating money to starvation over in Africa but why aren't they shelling out money to their own people that are starving in their own country? I mean it's happening I know it is and in order to properly help out others we come first in the need of help. P.S I'm sorry if I hurt anybody with what I said and sorry if I went a bit off subject or didn't exactly touch down on the subject but I felt what I said needed to be out there. |
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| Some_Kind_Of_Monster | Jan 29 2012, 12:41 PM Post #6 |
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Thanks for posting. @Voxx The world you describing to me is like a dream,almost. I came to Scotland more or less seven years ago, I'm now on third year of college. I concider myself Scottish-Polish. Will see what the government say about my naturalisation, but anyway. I love this country with all my heart, unfortunately the people I meet are narrowed minded and to them I am simply an intruder. They do not want to know or listen, everything I get from them is a middle finger; only, ONLY because I was born in Poland. @Metfuk "Let me give an example: On tv now, there's this commercial for a dating website that is only intended for 'high educated' people. Wtf? So the level education makes you better than others? I think it's a form of racism. Just because someone is not the college-type means that they are not intelligent? It's just stupid and it should not get in the way of dating." I think you're mistaking this for elitism. - by Voxx I agree. What is more Immigrants.. always interesting as I may become an immigrant in another country myself sometime. I think immigrants should try to adapt as much as possible, without crossing the lines of their own comfortzone. So that means learning the language and have a general knowledge on what is appropriate in the culture of the country they live in (just to avoid embarrassing or offensive situations). I have nothing against them and I often wonder what attracted them to my country in the first place, as I feel the grass must be greener somewhere else. Being an immigrant myself I have to unfortunately say that this is not enough. I know Scottish culture and history better then many people I know (native Scots) Immigrants are constantly scrutinised by others, always blamed because they now nothing about the contry they moved in. Is the grass greener? NO. If I had a chance to stay in Poland, study and maybe one day work in place I dreamed since I was a little girl, I would, unfortunately It is impossible, Scotland gives me the opportunity, and I intent to use it. It always imigrants that need to change? I think it's both sides. Immigrant needs to know 'whre he/she is goingto and so the natives should take some time and know them as people not a 'representatives of particular nationality'. |
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| Some_Kind_Of_Monster | Jan 29 2012, 12:49 PM Post #7 |
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@Lifer So, simply what you say about immigrants is that it's their fault that some of the Americans are not qualified and not bothered to go to work or gain any education? Plus those people who live from state benefits for 20 years are more valuable than well educated and productive foreigners (for the U.S) only because they were born ther? btw The debt is created only by bankers no one else. |
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| Lifer | Jan 29 2012, 01:04 PM Post #8 |
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Cowboys From Hell
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No it ain't fully their fault and anybody that's born in America I find to be American I'm not saying that it's all friggin immigrants faults I'm just saying that they aren't really helping America. |
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| Voxx | Jan 29 2012, 01:07 PM Post #9 |
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Poor Twisted Me
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@SKOM "The world you describing to me is like a dream,almost. I came to Scotland more or less seven years ago, I'm now on third year of college. I concider myself Scottish-Polish. Will see what the government say about my naturalisation, but anyway. I love this country with all my heart, unfortunately the people I meet are narrowed minded and to them I am simply an intruder. They do not want to know or listen, everything I get from them is a middle finger; only, ONLY because I was born in Poland." Unfortunately, I know exactly what you mean. Due to the nature of m father's job, he travels the world constantly and I've been lucky enough to have been able to accompany him on many of his business trips. I've spent summers in different countries and I've seen examples of racism that have shocked me due to my upbringing where race has never been an issue. Probably the most striking example I ever saw was when I was in Italy and I saw a woman forcefully removed from a restaurant solely because she was Romani (gypsy). Everyone just sat there and watched like it was the most normal thing in the world. I was shocked that its apparently the norm to treat people like that, just because they happen to be a different ethnicity. It actually makes me sick. People emigrate because they want a better life for themselves and their children. I don't think anyone has the right to begrudge them of that. @Lifer I say this with the utmost respect, but I think you have a very America-centric view of the world. It's nothing against you personally, but the world that you just described I think is shallow and superficial. You say that immigrants are stealing jobs from Americans. I agree that say, due to the global recession, jobs are hard to come by. But the reality is, many, many, many immigrants take jobs that no American would "lower" themselves to take. The same thing happens in Canada. Perhaps it is stereotypical, but why are there so many Arab cab drivers or Indian people who own convenience stores? Furthermore, and this happens in Canada too, but many skilled immigrant workers come over, doctors, lawyers, engineers and they want to work in their given fields. However, due to government regulations and various tests and sometimes new qualifications they must complete they are unable to work in their professional field. Thus, they are forced to find other jobs to support themselves while they try and get into their field. This is the direct fault of the government, inviting them to come the country, and then forcing these difficult regulations on them. If immigrants really were stealing jobs, then the government would close the borders. That's the reality. Furthermore, many jobs require upper education these days. And the truth is, a lot of Americans may not have the appropriate qualifications for these jobs. So I suppose that is also the fault of the immigrants too. My father is Canadian but he holds a Nexus pass that allows him to live in Canada but work in the states. He can also cross the border without having to go through American or Canadian customs. He just scans his passport and goes through. He works for a German company that is expanding into North America. During this expansion process, they were unable to find any qualified American to help with the expanding process. So they chose my father to do it. i guess he just stole a job from an American. 
Edited by Voxx, Jan 29 2012, 01:09 PM.
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| Some_Kind_Of_Monster | Jan 29 2012, 01:10 PM Post #10 |
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Well, to me, the people who are coming from different countries and are, like a siad before well educated and productive are doing much good to the U.S. of A. or any onther countries. I think this is more the case who the people are. ^^EDIT: @Voxx I couldn't say it better. Edited by Some_Kind_Of_Monster, Jan 29 2012, 01:13 PM.
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| Voxx | Jan 29 2012, 01:19 PM Post #11 |
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Poor Twisted Me
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^ Thank you!  Unfortunately for me (and those around me ) I'm majoring Political Science and Ethics, Society & Law so I happen to study and think about these sorts of questions all day and everyday. Therefore I tend to be very opinionated on them!
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| Some_Kind_Of_Monster | Jan 29 2012, 01:21 PM Post #12 |
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Well, I'm on 3rd year of Communication & Social Science I love the way you give your opinions, clear and flamboyant 
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| Lifer | Jan 29 2012, 01:23 PM Post #13 |
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Cowboys From Hell
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-.- Remind me people to NEVER EVER EVER EVER post here again thank you 
Edited by Lifer, Jan 29 2012, 01:26 PM.
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| Some_Kind_Of_Monster | Jan 29 2012, 01:31 PM Post #14 |
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No body, wants to discourage you. All opinions are more than welcome. This thread was created to find out peoples ideas about the subject. I am very happy that you shared. You have a right to your own ways of seeing the world. I would hope for more discussions from you. |
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| Voxx | Jan 29 2012, 01:32 PM Post #15 |
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Poor Twisted Me
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You shouldn't feel like that! Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and no one's opinion is any more right or wrong than anyone else's. The point of the board is to debate interesting and, in many instances, controversial issues. People are inevitably going to differ in opinion! I see it as a challenge to try and see if I can adequately articulate my particular view point so that people are able to understand me and perhaps ultimately agree with me. It's kind of like an intellectual exercise, though done with the utmost respect towards everyone participating And now, I really must be signing off of here because I have a paper to write 
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