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American Wars
Topic Started: Mar 26 2013, 01:09 AM (262 Views)
Charax
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I put it to you that America has never truly won a war.

War of Independence - A negotiated peace. Furthermore, you weren't America then anyway.
Korean War - A stalemate. The border was redrawn on the 34th peninsula, where it had been before.
War of 1812 - Canada still exists, that's a loss.
That one with Mexico - You got Texas. Is that really a victory?
WW1 - You jumped in at the end.
WW2 - The Russians raised the flag over Berlin. They win.
WW2 in Asia - The Japanese surrendered.
The Cold War - Not even a war.
Vietnam - Annihalated.
Civil War - This doesn't count.

For the purposes of debate, prove me wrong. Or of this a perspective based excerize, make me see things from your point of view. Convince me the US has won a war.
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Karputsk
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Mumakil
I think I would dispute World War II but the rest seem pretty accurate. :P
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Sauron
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Saruman
WW2 mostly against the Japanese.

But the rest yes.
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Karputsk
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Mumakil
Not to mention the fact that they supplied 70% (perhaps more) of the food for Soviet troops and a lot of their equipment. Without the Americans D-Day would not have been possible either and Britain may have sued for peace having successfully defended the Isles from Hitler. Don't forget their role in North Africa as well, or the success of their lend/lease policy.
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Beian
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What about Desert Storm? :P
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Charax
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*Googles desert storm

You just marched into a country, deposed their leader, and then left it in a state of civil unrest and turmoil. That wasn't a war, it was an invasion.
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Charax
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Karputsk
Mar 26 2013, 10:38 AM
Not to mention the fact that they supplied 70% (perhaps more) of the food for Soviet troops and a lot of their equipment. Without the Americans D-Day would not have been possible either and Britain may have sued for peace having successfully defended the Isles from Hitler. Don't forget their role in North Africa as well, or the success of their lend/lease policy.
I'm not saying they don't influence wars. But they've never outright won one through their own merits alone.
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Karputsk
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Mumakil
I suppose the question is; would the Allies have won World War II without the support of the Americans? I think the answer to that is no.

Also, by your own paramaters what would you consider a win for Britain? I'm just curious to see your examples.
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Warlord Vadam'ee
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Easterlings
Really, how is "victory" defined?
Like in WWII, how is Japan surrendering not a win? America ground down the Imperial military across the Pacific, in bitter jungle warfare. Then they NUKED two Japanese cities so millions of Japanese and up to a million GIs wouldn't be killed in an actual invasion of the Japanese island chain.
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Sauron
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Karputsk
Mar 26 2013, 04:45 PM
I suppose the question is; would the Allies have won World War II without the support of the Americans? I think the answer to that is no.

Also, by your own paramaters what would you consider a win for Britain? I'm just curious to see your examples.
This argument again?

I thought we'd covered this in the FRA and concluded that Britain would of eventually gone onto win the war eventually but at a huge cost economically, financially and social with extreme loss of life. But would of slowly grind out a victory.
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Charax
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Karputsk
Mar 26 2013, 04:45 PM
I suppose the question is; would the Allies have won World War II without the support of the Americans? I think the answer to that is no.

Also, by your own paramaters what would you consider a win for Britain? I'm just curious to see your examples.
The Napoleonic Wars, The Hundred Years War, The Falklands War and The Boer war are some examples I would use. :)
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Karputsk
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Sauron
Mar 26 2013, 09:50 PM
Karputsk
Mar 26 2013, 04:45 PM
I suppose the question is; would the Allies have won World War II without the support of the Americans? I think the answer to that is no.

Also, by your own paramaters what would you consider a win for Britain? I'm just curious to see your examples.
This argument again?

I thought we'd covered this in the FRA and concluded that Britain would of eventually gone onto win the war eventually but at a huge cost economically, financially and social with extreme loss of life. But would of slowly grind out a victory.
Looking at that argument it was mostly in regards to WWI and I can actually remember being around for it. The disagreement in regards to World War II was centred around the idea that America saved our arses in WWII (which I don't agree they did). I do not think we would have won the war without the Americans but neither do I think Germany would have beaten Britain either. War does not have to end through victory and before the Americans entered the war our victories in the Battle of Britain and Atlantic had effectively turned the Western front into a stalemate.

Charax
 
The Napoleonic Wars, The Hundred Years War, The Falklands War and The Boer war are some examples I would use.
In regards to the Napoleonic wars would that be a victory through our merits alone? The force that beat Napoleon at Waterloo was an Allied force and that battle was very much seen as the culmination and end of the Napoleonic wars. I shall concede the other wars but feel that your definition is somewhat unfair. America can still be considered to have won a war without necessarily being the only major force present and their role in World War II was crucial in the destruction of Nazi Germany and Japan. Without their involvement Britain would have been confined to the British Isles and North Africa (which might well have ended in loss without American support) and the Reich could have turned its full attention to the War in the East. While Russia undoubtedly had men to spare and could throw them without care at the German lines would their offensive have pushed Germany back to Berlin without further Allied support and a two pronged attack? I am not so sure and I suppose to argue either way is pure speculation, but a Nazi Germany concerned with only fighting on one front could easily have fortified and entrenched their position so as to prevent Soviet Russia from penetrating into the Motherland (as Hitler referred to it).
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Beian
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Warlord Vadam'ee
Mar 26 2013, 06:02 PM
Really, how is "victory" defined?
Like in WWII, how is Japan surrendering not a win? America ground down the Imperial military across the Pacific, in bitter jungle warfare. Then they NUKED two Japanese cities so millions of Japanese and up to a million GIs wouldn't be killed in an actual invasion of the Japanese island chain.
Because we Nuked them, that's not a win, that's terrible.
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Warlord Vadam'ee
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Easterlings
So? Would you rather we invaded the Home Islands, at a time when most Japanese would have fought in ANY way possible, including attacking riflemen with spears. They were fanatics, and the best way to end the war was to crush their leader's will to fight.
Even if we won, on Okinawa nearly all the civilians committed suicide, and any surviving Japanese soldiers would have killed them anyways, to prevent their capture and "dishonor" at the hands of the Americans.
So, how is nuking two cities terrible, compared to what we had seen happen on every island we had fought over?
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Beian
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There were other ways we could've done that, besides that dishonor thing is stereotypical, offensive and demeaning... That whole statement was. They fought for what they agreed with, not because of honor. America swore off ever using nukes again. (I switched sides :P)
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Charax
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Mordor's White Rapper Wizard
So I hear Beian is Latin for 'he who stays on the same side of arguments'.
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Beian
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Charax
Mar 27 2013, 09:36 PM
So I hear Beian is Latin for 'he who stays on the same side of arguments'.
Scio Latina.
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Charax
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Warlord Vadam'ee
Mar 27 2013, 04:16 PM
So? Would you rather we invaded the Home Islands, at a time when most Japanese would have fought in ANY way possible, including attacking riflemen with spears. They were fanatics, and the best way to end the war was to crush their leader's will to fight.
Even if we won, on Okinawa nearly all the civilians committed suicide, and any surviving Japanese soldiers would have killed them anyways, to prevent their capture and "dishonor" at the hands of the Americans.
So, how is nuking two cities terrible, compared to what we had seen happen on every island we had fought over?
That's like saying "It's okay we done lynched that dude cause we made his life so miserable he was gonna off himself anyways.".
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Beian
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So... America is terrible? We all already knew that.
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Charax
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All countries are terrible. America just has the money and weaponry to be the very worst.
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