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American Wars
Topic Started: Mar 26 2013, 01:09 AM (261 Views)
Beian
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Loving Leader of Best Country
Well then... We must create a new country, a Communist Democracy ruled by the purest of them all... Princess Luna.
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Charax
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Mordor's White Rapper Wizard
The purity has been doubled!
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Beian
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Loving Leader of Best Country
Screw America! Let's explain this... Latino Style.
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Charax
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Mordor's White Rapper Wizard
I wish I understood more of that. The bits I did get I liked.
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Wibblefeet
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Come with me if you want some Carrots
Korean War - Still running, technically. But yeah, I won't call that a win.

That one with Mexico - You got Texas. Is that really a victory?
- "Damn right it is," says the Texan. :D

WW1 & WW2 - The ALLIES won in Europe. Changing the definition to "America winning single-handedly" is disingenous. And flat out cheating. i will agree that we were very latecomers to 1. Political BS on the home front.
WW2 in Asia - The Japanese surrendered. Which is kind of the definition of 'winning a war", making the other guy capitulate. Now you're trying to chage the definition to "grind the foe under your heel" - this requires a particularly stupid foe who can't see the writing on the wall. Which is actually where japan was before we dropped two atomic (not nuclear) devices.

Civil War - Damned well counts. Or you don't have a clear grasp of what went on in the nation at the time. on either side.


As a talking point to start a conversation, your list is interesting. From a historical perspective, your organization, your shifitng definitions, is all obviously skewed to produce the result you crave "No." Or, to put it in a shorter form, "the list is a nice troll for a discussion, but it's crappy history."

Have a nice day.

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Beian
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I'm switching sides again.
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Charax
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Beian is like the lovechild of Mussolini and Mitt Romney. Pick a side damnit! :P

And it's true, I was mostly trying to start a discussion. Forum activity and all that jazz. But I might as well try to defend what I said as OP. The Civil War doesn't count, because it was between two opposing political factions of the same nation. We call it a win for America now, because we see that the federation of the states has made them a global superpower. However, had the Confederates won we would hail their victory as a victory for independence. If the heretics in California want gays to marry, the batshit fundamentalists down south don't have to let them. And we'd celebrate that.

As for Japan, it's a tricky point. I concede that you beat Japan in 1945, but I would like to raise two points. The first being that, as has already been mentioned, how can America morally claim to be victors when they resorted to using atomic (my apologies for referring to them as nuclear) weaponry? And in addition, the America-Japan conflict was a part of the Second World War. So although I admit that you beat them, as you say, it was an allied victory, not an American one. My country is just as bad as your in believing we won WW2, we are often seen chanting 'Two World Wars and one World Cup' at Germans during football matches. But I personally do not count the Second World War as a British Victory, nor an American one. We western nations often forget of the Soviet Union's contributions to the war effort.
Edited by Charax, Mar 28 2013, 10:10 AM.
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Hellhound
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Warg
Well, speaking as a soldier in the United States Army, I would say that, to claim victory in a war, the primary objective will have to have been realized. That being the case, then I would say this about the wars we've been involved in.

Revolutionary War-Goal: Independence from Britain-Victory. (Yes, I know we weren't an official nation yet, but that's where we got our start.)
War of 1812-Goal:Settling of various issues with Britain-A truce settled in America's favor, i.e., Britain paid the U.S. a large sum of money. So, sort of a success. And the aftermath of the war did help pave the way for improved relations between the U.S. and Great Britain.
The Mexican-American War-Settling of various issues mainly regarding border disputes with Mexico-Victory.
The Civil War-One huge mess, but still a Victory for the United States, seeing how the goal of the war was to preserve the Union.
The Spanish-American War-American support of Independence for Spanish colonial holdings led to war. In the end, Spain lost its colonies in the Americas and the Pacific-Victory
World War 1-Allied Victory-(And I call it a victory for all Allied Nations, not any one by itself. Yes, the United States entered late, but we sent a lot of troops to aid in the war effort.
World War 2-Again, an Allied Victory, with a lot of American supplies being sent to aid the rest of the Allies before we officially joined the war.
Korean War-Officially ongoing...
Vietnam War-To put it bluntly, a loss.
Desert Storm-Goal:Liberate Kuwait-Victory.
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Wibblefeet
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Come with me if you want some Carrots
Hellhound, good points, except Desert Storm. It wasn't a declared war (neither was vietnam) and I have to call it ineligible on those grounds.

- technically, the Civil War MAY be invalidated on the same grounds. The Union recognized the Secessionist states as a belligerent in many ways, but did NOT pursue a formal declaration of war, becasue that would have legitimized the act of secession - namely, indicating it HAD happened, and they werre seeking to undo it.
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Hellhound
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Warg
Other than being part of the Persian Gulf War, then maybe it doesn't count. But again, that would depend on which definition of war you're using. Same thing goes for the Civil War. Especially since thee was no formal declaration of war in Korea, either.
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Tintean
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Charax
Mar 26 2013, 01:09 AM
I put it to you that America has never truly won a war.

War of Independence - A negotiated peace. Furthermore, you weren't America then anyway.
Korean War - A stalemate. The border was redrawn on the 34th peninsula, where it had been before.
War of 1812 - Canada still exists, that's a loss.
That one with Mexico - You got Texas. Is that really a victory?
WW1 - You jumped in at the end.
WW2 - The Russians raised the flag over Berlin. They win.
WW2 in Asia - The Japanese surrendered.
The Cold War - Not even a war.
Vietnam - Annihalated.
Civil War - This doesn't count.

For the purposes of debate, prove me wrong. Or of this a perspective based excerize, make me see things from your point of view. Convince me the US has won a war.
WW2 in Asia- They surrendered-hence, USA won.
Civil War- This does count as it WAS the Union(USA) vs. Confederate States(a different country).
Gulf War 1 and 2- Won
Afghanistan- ongoing in my opinion.


You rolled a: 1!
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Alancar
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I'm a magical princess from another dimension
Beian
Mar 27 2013, 07:31 PM
that dishonor thing is stereotypical, offensive and demeaning.
No it's not. It's entirely accurate. Japanese culture was and still is very different from ours. Whether you like it or not is entirely subjective, but I agree with Vadam. If the war had been thought on conventional means, by the time it was over all of Japan would have been rubble as opposed to just two cities. It's an unpleasant truth, but those atomic bombs saved lives. Not just American, but Japanese as well. And that is without even taking things like infrastructure and economics.

Charax
 
That's like saying "It's okay we done lynched that dude cause we made his life so miserable he was gonna off himself anyways."
No. It's more like:

"It's okay we gave that guy a concussion by hitting him with a chair on the head, cause that prevented him from putting a bullet on his own temple"

And the "we made his life so miserable" is totally unfair. It was the Japanese that started the war.

Charax
 
how can America morally claim to be victors when they resorted to using atomic weaponry?
Because the means used to achieve victory are irrelevant to the fact that victory was achieved.
Edited by Alancar, Mar 29 2013, 04:25 AM.
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DaBigWilliG
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Except from the victory doing nothing but killing civilians and not soldiers. Good job America hope you feel like the big man
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Warlord Vadam'ee
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Easterlings
Yes we do, because we killed less civilians than would have been killed in a conventional assault.
We saved lives with the nuclear strikes. Japanese citizens at the time were deeply fanatical to their state and Emperor, and would have died to prove it, trying to take at least one American with them.
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Beian
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Loving Leader of Best Country
Can we all just agree America sucks, and end this debate?
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Charax
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Mordor's White Rapper Wizard
The American said it, not me.
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Alancar
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I'm a magical princess from another dimension
DaBigWilliG
Mar 30 2013, 04:43 AM
Except from the victory doing nothing but killing civilians and not soldiers. Good job America hope you feel like the big man
Because that is how wars are fought. We no longer live in the age were war means we got two armies fighting it out in the middle of a field. The last large conflict that was fought with a premise even remotely similar to that was WWI. Nowadays (and all the way in the late 30's) war tends to be largely not so much about killing the enemy soldier but destroying the infrastructure that keeps that soldier armed and feed. Supply lines, factories, assembly lines, ports...stuff that tends to employ civilian workers and is therefore located within the vicinity of population centres.

Both Hiroshima and Nagazaki were of great strategic importance to the Japanese war effort for that very reason, which is part of the reason they were chosen in the first place.
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Charax
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Mordor's White Rapper Wizard
It is still entirely possible to fight a war on armies alone, one example being the Falklands War. Although supply routes etc are very important, they need not be the principle way to do battle. Though we do seem to be heading that direction, regrettably.
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Alancar
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I'm a magical princess from another dimension
I don't know much about that. But assuming you assessment is correct it makes sense in the context that in practical terms that war was fought in neutral territory. The military might of either country wasn't dependent on the territory being contested, and neither side was willing to escalate in a full blown invasion.
Edited by Alancar, Mar 30 2013, 10:54 PM.
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Akkadian Assyria
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will molest your parents for laughs
*cough* gulf war *cough*
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