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| Demand for ICJ Ruling | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jul 19 2015, 10:26 AM (211 Views) | |
| Obey | Jul 19 2015, 10:26 AM Post #1 |
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![]() Nicolas Maduro El Presidente de Venezuela International Court of Justice I am here because Venezuela has been a victim of injustice for so long at the hands of Guyana a country that has wrongfully violated the Treaty of Geneva which came into existence on February 17, 1966 which requires both Venezuela and Guyana to actively seek peace through negotiations and dialogue. The history of our dispute with Guyana goes back to times before the independence of Guyana to the time in which we engaged in arbitration in which the United States at that time acted as our negotiators on our behalf negotiated the following agreement which was signed in the Treaty of Arbitration in 1897 which set apart the following distinction in territory: ![]() In 1966 this dispute was agreed to be put on hold for 12 years time during which the existing boundaries would be respected and for those 12 years there was peace but after those 12 years the government of Guyana began to do what they have done to this day in attempting to expand their maritime borders and their land grants despite the territory rightfully belonging to Venezuela. Despite the protestations of Brazil and Great Britain our intentions are peaceful and we are intent on finding a resolution through the ICJ to this problem as Guyana has refused our requests to negotiate on this matter and refused our attempts to initiate a dialogue on our dispute.
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| Rezim | Jul 19 2015, 11:14 AM Post #2 |
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His Majesty King Carol I
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![]() Rosemary A. DiCarlo Permanent Representative to the United Nations United States of America President Maduro, As you claim that Guyana has violated the Treaty of Geneva of 1966, it is important to recognize that the Treaty of Geneva also determined that a practical, satisfactory, and peaceful solution be found. At this point, the United States believes that the Venezuelan claims are hardly coming from a position of willing to negotiate in good favour, or seek a solution - whether through arbitration or through the International Court. President Maduro is using a map from 1890, willingly ignoring the Venezuelan Crisis of 1895 and the subsequent Treaty of Washington that was signed on 2 February, 1897 which stipulated a solution be found by Venezuela and the United Kingdom at that time. The result of the 1899 arbitration tribunal following the treaty resulted in the territory of what is now Guyana being awarded to the United Kingdom, which Venezuela rejected, leading to the Treaty of Geneva in 1966. As a signatory to the Treaty, Venezuela recognized the territorial integrity of Guyana, as per this statement from the Venezuelan government in 1966:
What President Maduro is asking for from the International Court of Justice here today is nearly entirety of the Republic of Guyana be seized and given to Venezuela. In addition to this, he is asking for $1,600,000,000,000.00 US dollars for lost mining rights. Simply put, this is nothing short of extortion. How does the Venezuelan government believe that the Guyanese government is intended to pay back such a sum? We believe that arbitration for a solution as outlined by the Treaty of Geneva is necessary and can give conclusion to this dispute, but that the method by which the Venezuelan government is approaching the court is for the systematic destruction of a sovereign state and member of the United Nations. |
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| Obey | Jul 19 2015, 11:29 AM Post #3 |
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Delcy Rodríguez Foreign Minister of Venezuela On the contrary as can be readily confirmed we have attempted to start negotiations with the Guyana government only to have them refuse to participate in ANY negotiation with Venezuela over the matter regarding the territorial dispute. Guyana is the one in violation of the treaty by clear measure. The statement you mention does not secede or end our territorial dispute but instead grants Guyana EAST of the banks of the river, our dispute never was beyond the east of the river. Our dispute has always been to the west encompassing the totality of the area in the map we showed. Venezuela calls upon Guyana to enter into arbitration and moreover we call upon the rewarding of damages to satisfy the continued violation of peace by Guyana in consistently granting oil and petroleum contracts to companies in areas covered under the dispute which is in clear breach of good faith and moreover a clear violation of previous agreements. |
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| Rezim | Jul 19 2015, 11:57 AM Post #4 |
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His Majesty King Carol I
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![]() Rosemary A. DiCarlo Permanent Representative to the United Nations United States of America If Venezuela got what it wanted, it would cede the disputed territory west of the Essequibo River to Venezuela from Guyana. This would result in an exchange of 145,353 square kilometres to Venezuela from Guyana. Saying that Guyana is "granted" the territory east of the Essequibo River is a nice way of saying "We don't want to take the entirety of your territory, only two-thirds of which we believe to be ours based on claims from the nineteenth century." In addition to this is the lives of over 75,000 Guyanese citizens in these disputed regions. Will they be displaced should Venezuela get what it wants? Surely Venezuela cannot afford to take them in and grant them Venezuelan citizenship. And even in that case, what if they reject? There are too many issues here that we believe the Venezuelan government has not taken into consideration. Since 1966, Venezuela has been more or less accepting of Guyana's sovereignty and territorial integrity. In 1970 the Port of Spain Protocol put a moratorium on Venezuela from claiming Guyanese territory, which expired in 1983. It wasn't until 2011 that Venezuela again raise the dispute to international attention. On top of this, Venezuela is asking for $1.6 trillion USD in damages? It is ludicrous. We find this to be frankly a waste of the ICJ's time. If Venezuela wants arbitration, the United States would be willing to be involved in assisting in an inter-governmental arbitration case, but at this point, we find this to not be even close to an attempt of negotiation in good faith. We urge the ICJ to dismiss this request by the government of Venezuela. Edited by Rezim, Jul 19 2015, 11:59 AM.
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| Obey | Jul 19 2015, 12:09 PM Post #5 |
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Delcy Rodríguez Foreign Minister of Venezuela Has the United States even bothered to listen to what we have said? Our dispute has not seceded anything, it has always been in regards to territory WEST of the river. Furthermore Venezuela has not "accepted" Guyana's current territorial limits which are in fact illegal by the way, we have participated in agreements that have postponed the transfer of territory to Venezuela on the basis of maintaining the peace and it is not Venezuela but Guyana who refused to agree to an extension of the Port of Spain protocols and it is also Guyana who has rejected our most recent attempts at negotiations. And the monetary damages we have requested takes into account past and present damages due to stolen land, air, martime and mineral rights taken away from us by the government of Guyana. We believe the sum is a modest reflection of immense value of the land that has been stolen from us and we believe it is an important way to provide us with restitution for the damage done by Guyana. It is also worth noting that Guyana has placed illegal petroleum and land contracts on the area currently occupied by Guyana collecting vast revenues that extend into the billions which over time with accumulated interest is into the trillions in terms of revenues they have been party to. We have sought an inter-governmental resolution but it is clear the United States stands against the tides of history when it advocated for the territorial limits being the EAST of the river and now stands against their own government and their own past in taking the side of Guyana blindly. We urge the ICJ to toss the American representative from the room for wasting everyones time with their nonsense rhetoric that reflects more ignorance than fact. |
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| Maze | Jul 19 2015, 12:23 PM Post #6 |
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Fredrik Terry Representation for the Netherlands The Netherlands is concerned that the Venezuelan minister has not considered asking anyone for help with such peace negotiations, nor do we believe that the United States Representative is incorrect. The Netherlands is highly concerned that Venezuela is headed down a lane that is not correct for such a nation. We urge the Venezuelan Government to consider resolving issues with the help of the United Nations, instead of being the sole one involved in these talks. From the Netherlands standpoint, it seems that Venezuela is being the aggressive one in the situation, which suggests to us that Guyana has reason for denying your talks. Again, please consider the United States opinion, as it stands, in our eyes the United States is correct. We second the urge to dismiss this request immediately by the United States, and hope the ICJ will do such. Edited by Maze, Jul 20 2015, 12:35 AM.
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| Rezim | Jul 19 2015, 12:25 PM Post #7 |
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His Majesty King Carol I
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![]() Rosemary A. DiCarlo Permanent Representative to the United Nations United States of America Of course no territory has been ceded, Minister Rodriguez, I think it is you who are not listening. I have been consistent with what I said - that the desired outcome would result in the ceding of territory west of the Essequibo River to Venezuela from Guyana - which would result in two-thirds of Guyanese territory being given to Venezuela in such an event. No territory has been ceded, but it is the desire of your government to see it ceded, and therein lies the issue. There is also the issue that your government is asking for damages to be paid by Guyana, in an amount that is over two-hundred times larger than their GDP. The GDP of Guyana doesn't even amount to 0.5% of what your government is asking for in damages. While Venezuela may have a case regarding operations in the disputed territory, what your government is asking for is a ridiculous amount of money, and nothing short of bullying your neighbour. As for the United States position on the matter, we do not have an issue with Venezuela and Guyana coming to a solution on the dispute - we are simply pointing out and making note of the absurd requests being made by your government. First your government uses maps from the late nineteenth century to substantiate its claim, and then attempts to hold us responsible for the administration of President Grover Cleveland to support Venezuela in this matter? Minister Rodriguez, this isn't the 1890's anymore, and the President of the United States is not Grover Cleveland - it is Hillary Rodham Clinton. If the Venezuelan government wants out-of-date policies to remain enact, why did former President Chavez advocate for the ending of the Monroe Doctrine? Something that President Obama declared over in his first term as President, by the way. Edited by Rezim, Jul 19 2015, 12:28 PM.
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| Obey | Jul 19 2015, 12:35 PM Post #8 |
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Delcy Rodríguez Foreign Minister of Venezuela In response to Netherlands we have attempted to hold talks through Brazil who offered to do talks but has failed to follow through, this is the logical next step in our diplomacy to ensure that this matters does not sit unresolved for another hundred years to follow. Frankly the United States on the other hand has no credibility on this subject any longer with their inflammatory deployment to participate in exercises that they themselves have announced as being aimed at Venezuela when we have done nothing provocative ourselves following diplomatic protocols and a path of peace rather than inflammatory action. Our country cannot help that the amount is more than the GDP of Guyana, the government of Guyana should have considered the consequences when they illegally entered disputed territories and auctioned off minerals to companies and claimed the profits as their own pilfering it for their own pockets. Furthermore our claim dates back to the nineteenth century which is why we have used maps from that period to demonstrate the historical nature of our claim that PREDATES the founding of Guyana itself. The United States does not seem to realize that the reason for using maps from this time period is because our claim goes back that far, everything on that map is West of the river which is our claim and one we hold to. We dot not see the United States as a productive voice in this matter but instead a voice that is really trying to make a mockery of the ICJ. |
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| Rezim | Jul 19 2015, 12:53 PM Post #9 |
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His Majesty King Carol I
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![]() Rosemary A. DiCarlo Permanent Representative to the United Nations United States of America I cannot speak for officials at the Pentagon myself, and suggest that Minister Rodriguez either read a statement made by the White House or take it up with an official at the US Department of Defense. As far as I am aware, the deployment was already in place as of the Autumn of 2018 and has only recently turned its attention to the matter between Guyana and Venezuela following reports of aggressive posturing by Venezuela. As for the maps - sir, with all due respect, but the maps being used can no longer be considered valid for a couple of reasons. One - they predate the Venezuelan Crisis of 1895, the Treaty of Washington of 1897, and the ruling of the arbitration that was established following the Treaty of Washington in 1899. Two - British Guiana was the British colony that predates the Republic of Guyana. As the Republic of Guyana is the successor to British Guiana, we are well aware of what purpose maps may or may not have in this discussion. We again call for the ICJ to respectfully decline Venezuela's request, or at least force Venezuela to reconsider what it wishes to seek from the ICJ if it wants a legitimate solution to the matter. We have respect for the court and the process, but feel that what Venezuela wants as a result from the ICJ is ridiculous to request of not only this court, but also of the Republic of Guyana. |
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| Obey | Jul 19 2015, 01:17 PM Post #10 |
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Delcy Rodríguez Foreign Minister of Venezuela We use those maps because they show that our claim has consistently remained the same throughout history. We ask that the United States be removed from the room since all they want to do is ignore our claim. |
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