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F-35 development talks
Topic Started: Feb 15 2013, 04:42 AM (192 Views)
Jos1311
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FORT WORTH, TEXAS
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Posted Image - Leon Panetta, Secretary of Defence
Posted Image - Philip Hammond, Secretary of Defence
Posted Image - Giampaolo di Paola, Minister of Defence
Posted Image - Jeanine Hennis-Plasschaert, Minister of Defence
Posted Image - Stephen Smith, Minister of Defence
Posted Image - Robert Fonberg, Deputy Minister of National Defence
Posted Image - Nick Hækkerup, Minister of Defence
Posted Image - Anne-Grete Strøm-Erichsen, Minister of Defence
Posted Image - İsmet Yılmaz, Ministers of National Defence
Posted Image - Ehud Barak, Minister of Defense
Posted Image - Mohamad Maliki Osman, Minister of Defence
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Posted Image Leon Panetta
Secretary of Defense
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First let me welcome you all to Fort Worth, Texas. I would like to welcome you in the center where the F-35 lightning II is rapidly becoming a reality. Here, at the Air Force Plant 4, the Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Company is working hard to deliver the first batches of the F-35 Lightning II aircraft to its customers.

Flight testing of the F-35A Lightning II has been progressing steadily, and is nearing completion. The flight testing for the B and C models is also steadily advancing, and will near completion in the coming years as well. I am proud to announce that the United States Department of Defense has placed its first large order for a total of 96 aircraft, of all three models. These are expected to be delivered in 2015 and 2016, and come on top of the 90 that have already been ordered or delivered. Washington confirms its commitment to purchase no less than 2,443 aircraft. However at this moment it is becoming more and more important that the other partners in this project also announce how much aircraft they will purchase and if they are willing to remain committed to the project.

Lockheed Martin and Turkey have already signed an agreement for the delivery of 24 F-35A and 12 F-35B aircraft. I would like to take this opportunity to thank my Turkish counterpart for their faith in the project and the aircraft as a whole, and would like to invite the other partner states to discuss the possible acquisition of the F-35 Lightning II. We know that various countries are considering lowering the number of aircraft they will purchase, and while this is understandable when looking at the current economic climate, we urge our partners to seriously consider the consequences of lowering their orders.

I ask all partners to pose their questions, concerns and remarks on the entire project now, when myself and the people of Lockheed Martin can address them, while I also request you provide us with more information about the plans you have for purchasing the aircraft.
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Bobithy
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Great Leader of the Korean People
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Ehud Barak
Minister of Defense
State of Israel



Secretary Panetta,

It is an hour to be at these talks here today with you and our partners around the globe. We have an interest in procuring at least 18 F-35A's in our initial purchase order, and overtime it is expected that we shall procure more in a program to begin replacing older aircraft within the Israeli Air Force. In total we have planned to purchase over 100 F-35 aircraft over a period of multiple years. As we have stated in the past we would like to request that F-35A aircraft being sold to Israel have some modifications to them much like the F-16I. This includes Israeli-designed Electronic Warfare equipment, the ability to utilize Israeli-made aircraft weapon.
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PolishPrince
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((OOC: Not as committed since Circo advised me to look beyond the media hype... Will edit this shortly)
Edited by PolishPrince, Feb 18 2013, 09:06 AM.
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Circo
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Robert Fonberg
Deputy Minister of National Defence
Canada


I would like to thank Secretary Panetta for hosting this meeting and allowing us to discuss the F-35 project.

The F-35 project has been of growing concern for Canada in recent years. Ranging from our citizens to our top officials in the Ministry of National Defence, the F-35 project has been one that we have had growing issues with and ultimately what led to increasing calls for a complete cancellation in Canada's expected procurement of the F-35. Ultimately, this is what led to freezing of funding for the acquisition of the F-35 by the federal government in 2012.

Much as Defence Secretary Hammon stated, the cost per unit is extremely off-putting. In particular, the F-35 is expensive for an unproven fighter that has a growing list of concerns that I will present to you shortly. In recent months, my ministry has been exploring the purchase of different fighters to fill the needs and requirements of Canada at a better price with proven reliability in combat. Whilst alternative options to my nation are not classed as a fifth generation fighter, they are proven in combat and meet the requirements of Canada at an affordable rate. Such fighters include the Eurofighter Typhoon (USD$120m-$150 min), the F/A-18F Super Hornet (US$101.00 mln), the JAS 39 Gripen F (US$90.00 mln) and the Rafale M (US$150.00 mln). Compared to the US$160.00 mln for the F-35A, I am sure you can understand the trepidation at purchasing such an aircraft at that price.

Additionally, we have concerns over the anticipated maintenance cost of the F-35. The F-35A's expected annual maintenance cost is US$6.55 mln. From the list of aircraft that I listed below as being considered as alternatives for the F-35 by my nation, the highest is the US$6.30 mln. Such a cost for maintenance, particularly of a new aircraft, is a concern of mine that suggests that the initial performance of the aircraft is below the expectations that we had for such a fighter. Coupled with the cost of adapting Canadian air bases for the F-35, the overall expected cost for the purchase of the originally planned 65 CF-35 during it's life time with all things considered comes to a total of CAD$45B. This, quite frankly, is unacceptable to us.

Ignoring the increasing cost of the F-35 project, we have several other concerns.

The defeat of the F-35 in a mixed fleet of F-35, F-22 and F/A-18E Super Hornets in a simulated battle with the SU-30 suggests that the air-to-air capabilities of the F-35 is below the standard that was expected. Again, with compared to other European aircraft such as the Typhoon and the JAS Gripen F, both appear on paper and in the air to be better performers. It is of the upmost concern to Canada that we obtain a multi-role fighter than can be among the top performers of the world.

We also have concerns over the software in the F-35 and the growing reports from the Pentagon in particular of this issue. With the technology advances allowing greater computing power and with the F-35 relying on computer systems to function at maximum capacity, we had hoped that such issues would be eliminated at this stage of the development. In particular, our concerns with the software include the current security issues that are requiring retooling, the issues with the helmet interfacing and the continued maintenance of the software that will be required during the F-35's lifespan. With other 10 million lines of software coding, it has to be done correctly and with F-35s being delivered to nations for testing; we were expecting more at this stage.

In conclusion, the price, air performance and software of the F-35 are below our standards and is making Canada seriously consider an alternative fighter jet as a replacement of the CF-18. I hope that Lockheed Martin can address these concerns and provide strong evidence that these concerns will be addressed and adjustments made to the F-35 to ensure the fifth generation fighter that was promised from the start of development. Otherwise, I can see the F-35 being the next disappointment of Western industry and a fighter that Canada will not be seeking to purchase in the near future.
Edited by Circo, Feb 16 2013, 06:01 PM.
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Kasparkova
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Kingdom of Norway
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Anne-Grete Strøm-Erichsen
Minister of Defence
___


Norway is pleased the F-35 Lightning II project is progressing and remains committed to modernising our fleet with these aircraft. Our pilots have logged well over 2,500 hours testing the F-35 at Edwards Air Force Base since 2010 and the results are extremely pleasing. We have stated our intention to purchase 52 F-35A's and we stand by our decision. Information on possible lead times of these aircraft would be appreciated.
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Jos1311
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the Netherlands:
Initial plans for the Netherlands were to acquire 85 aircraft, however as has been suggested earlier, this figure will most likely not be bought. The increased price of the aircraft and the much higher cost of upkeep compared to the F-16 have resulted in the Dutch government planning to replace its F-16s on a one for one basis. Currently this means we would opt to acquire 68 aircraft, however the continuing rising unit cost might reduce the order even further. The Netherlands favors the option to purchase 68 aircraft, this includes the two test aircraft that have already been bought, however we need confirmation that the current unit prices will not rise any further.

Italy:
As a result of Italy''s sovereign debt crisis, and the rapidly increased cost per aircraft Italy has already lowered its planned order to 90 aircraft, from the original 131. The total order could however be reduced even further, as Italy is extremely concerned at the delays and cost rises of the program.

Canada:
Due to disappointing orders for the Canadian aviation industry and the large amount of issues with the aircraft, the delays as well as the cost increases, Canada will most likely not be purchasing the 65 aircraft it has planned to replace its aging CF-18 aircraft. An industrial offsets report, released in December 2012, showed that the best estimate of potential benefits to Canadian industry would be C$9.8 billion, far below the forecast of C$45.8 billion. If Canada cannot purchase the aircraft at the prices that have been guaranteed, it is likely that the order will be far smaller, or that Canada might even decide not to buy the aircraft.

Australia:
Australia remains committed to buy the planned 100 aircraft, despite its concerns over the delays and cost rises. Rumors that the Royal Australian Air Force or Navy would purchase an additional number of F-35Bs are not true. Australia will not be operating fixed-wing aircraft from its future Canberra class amphibious vessels. The total order of Australia will go towards the A version, but we would like to receive confirmation that the deliveries will remain on schedule and that the first RAAF squadron can be in place sooner than 2017.

Singapore:
Singapore has expressed interest in potentially purchasing as many as 100 A variants, however this was at lower prices. The price increases and delays have resulted in Singapore most likely reducing the potential order to as much as 72 aircraft. Singapore is however also considering other options, and possible contracts for companies from Singapore could result in the order being granted to Lockheed Martin.
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Circo
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Posted Image Leon Panetta
Secretary of Defense

Minister Barak, we can certain ensure the F-35s delivered include Israeli avionics and we shall contact you privately to discuss this further.

We understand that in times of economic difficulty that the price of the F-35 is high compared to the alternative fighters listed by Deputy Minister Fonberg, it is worth noting that the F-35 is the only multi-role fifth generation fighter available at this time and the only "Western" fifth generation fighter in production. The difference in the initial expected purchase and operating costs appears to be a deciding factor with many nations, and is understandable, but the F-35 is still expected to be cost less than other fifth generation alternatives that will be entering the market in the near future. We will seek to ensure that unit prices remain as they are, particularly given the current stage of testing that the F-35 is currently in with numerous air forces.

Continuing with comparisons to other available or soon-to-be available aircraft, the F-35 is one of a handful of fifth generation aircraft designed to be used in multiple roles. Few are seeking multi-role fighters and instead are looking towards interceptors and air superiority fighters, something that will prove deadly if a fifth generation interceptor meets a fourth generation multi-role fighter. Coupled with the rate of technology advancements, it is expected that fourth generation fighters will be rendered useless by 2020.

To ensure the best defense for your country, the operation of fifth generation planes is becoming more and more vital. With the F-35 designed by proven combat aircraft manufacturers and to be operated by numerous countries who share defense treaties, we fully anticipate that the F-35 will become an important aircraft to have for nations who seek to defend against all possible threats for the next 20 years that they or their allies may encounter.

Although planned initial orders may not be immediately bought, I must ask that everyone seek to provide the best for their nation. Whilst we regret the delays in the F-35 program, we are confident that Lockheed Martin will be able to meet delivery schedules provided by the nations gathered here, starting with initial delivery of combat aircraft in 2015 with block III software in 2016, and provide an outstanding aircraft to our nations.
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PolishPrince
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Philip Hammond
Defence Secretary

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Her Majesties’ Government has long been a supporter of the F-35 project, however due to rising costs, dubious stealth capabilities and an armament capacity which leaves much to be desired.

Unless more information can be provided on it’s stealth capabilities, specifically unless there can be considerable improvements, it is unlikely that the United Kingdom will seek to use this aircraft for more than carrier capabilities.

With that in mind, we shall be purchasing sixty units over the coming years. These will be to provide aircraft for the future Elizabeth-class aircraft carriers, HMS Elizabeth and HMS Prince of Wales. Other than that, I am afraid the United Kingdom is unlikely to place further orders.
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Circo
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Posted Image Leon Panetta
Secretary of Defense

Based upon on recent stealth tests, the F-35 has a significantly lower frontal RCS (in the range of 1/35~1/70) than current Western 4.5 generation fighters such as the Eurofighter, the Rafale, the F/A-18E/F and the Gripen. To give an size comparison, the F-35 from the front is displayed on a radar as a the size of a golf ball.

With regards to the armament capacity, the F-35 can hold 4 assorted weapons from the AIM-120, AIM-132, JDAM, JSOW, Brimstone and WCMD whilst retaining it's full stealth capabilities. With a total of 10 hard points, only 3 less than the Eurofighter. For ground-attack missions, the F-35 can carry 6x 2000lb bombs with 2x AIM-120 and 2x AIM-9. We have also heard from Lockheed Martin n response to the issues with the lower armament capacity that a Block 5 version of the F-35 will be able to carry 3 weapons per internal weapons bay, increasing the total hardpoints available on the aircraft to 12.

Whilst costs have exceeded what we predicted, I refer you to my last message. With the F-35 is testing stages with air forces across the world, we will seek to ensure that unit costs do not rise above their current value.
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PolishPrince
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Philip Hammond
Defence Secretary

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Generally speaking, I'm largely supportive of stealth aircraft. It gives nations like the UK a distinct advantage, however I'm hearing a lot of talk from those within the British defence industry that the stealth capabilities of the F-35 may become outdated within 5 years of us taking possession of our order.

This is, as you can imagine, quite concerning when we initially wanted this aircraft because of its stealth capabilities. The sheer price difference, and maintenance cost, of the F-35 STOVL, over 10 years, is around $6bn more expensive than a a alternative and this is for a craft which will have a reduced range, reduced payload, reduced manoeuvrability and will operate at far lower speeds. The very potent selling point, for us, is the stealth capability.

With that in mind, is Washington able to garauntee that this aircraft will provide us with the ability to strike strategic targets with very little warning, for the next 15-20 years?
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