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Triarch Praetorians
Topic Started: Mar 14 2014, 01:09 PM (842 Views)
M0Dark
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Deathmark
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So after looking for some units to add to my small army to deal with CC troops I see the TP and think they may be OK, then I read the rule saying that you can't use a dual profile weapon in 2 phases in the same turn. this just makes them absolutely useless, and pretty much the only unit I have come across that this effects. You have to choose (once you get within 6" of an enemy) whether to shoot at BS4 S5 AP2, and then Assault using sticks, or not shoot and then fight in the assault with S6 AP2 but at I2, coincidentally as overwatch happens in the assault phase you can overwatch and then hit with them.

For the price of 5 of these you could get 15 warriors who assuming you are shooting terminators will (MathHammer) kill 2.4 Terminators (assuming the terminators kill one warrior who stays dead, before being assaulted whilst loosing 1.77 warriors after RP, where the TP will kill 1.5 and loose none assuming they jump from out of LOS.
Assuming now that the warriors are assaulted and the TP do the assaulting in the Warrior Combat, overwatch kills 0.361 Termies before the sarge kills 0.75 then the 12 warriors kill 0.5 an the remaining 2 termies kill 2.5. Then warriors have a 50/50 of staying put and getting 1 dead guy back in RP. Leaving 2 Termies and 11 Warriors.
The TP will get 0.2 Killed in OW then loose 0.3 to the Sarge then the remainder all go at once, 2.5 Dead TP 0.2 dead termies So TP loose by 3 The same as the warriors except that there are 3.3 Terminators alive and 3 TP if they pass their LD and stay put and 1 gets back up.
The worse the save on the models the further this goes in favor of the warriors, I have also assumed no cover for the terminators and that the charges were made.
Just wondering if anyone has actually used these to any effect in any games at it seems to me that everything else is better (except maybe FO's).
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SurrenderAndDie
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For those particular reasons alone is why I built my Praetorians with the Voidblade/Particle Caster combo instead of the Rod Of Covenant. In MY opinion, the VB/PC is the way to load-out these guys!

Entropic Strike/Rending plus the PC is a pistol and counts as a CC weapon for the +1 Attack in combat. I found the 12" range is not all that restricting and is strong enough to hurt units.

The BEST way to get the most mileage out of this expensive unit is to attach a D.Lord with a Res Orb. It's been the only time I've seen taking a Res Orb with a D.Lord as a viable use of points.

Stripping armor saves off of high wound models like Tyrannofex, Carnifex, etc. is just too awesome!

As for deployment, DS-ing them can be a gamble just like anything, OR you can take them in a Night Scythe which is what I've done more than once with excellent results.
Edited by SurrenderAndDie, Mar 14 2014, 02:21 PM.
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Unholyllama
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SurrenderAndDie
Mar 14 2014, 02:19 PM
For those particular reasons alone is why I built my Praetorians with the Voidblade/Particle Caster combo instead of the Rod Of Covenant. In MY opinion, the VB/PC is the way to load-out these guys!

Entropic Strike/Rending plus the PC is a pistol and counts as a CC weapon for the +1 Attack in combat. I found the 12" range is not all that restricting and is strong enough to hurt units.

The BEST way to get the most mileage out of this expensive unit is to attach a D.Lord with a Res Orb. It's been the only time I've seen taking a Res Orb with a D.Lord as a viable use of points.

Stripping armor saves off of high wound models like Tyrannofex, Carnifex, etc. is just too awesome!

As for deployment, DS-ing them can be a gamble just like anything, OR you can take them in a Night Scythe which is what I've done more than once with excellent results.
This.

In my own games, I do the same thing and they work out very well.

One thing to also realize about Praetorians - they are the only Non-Canoptek/Non-C'tan model in our codex that is fearless. Even our HQ's aren't fearless so having a unit of jump infantry that can shoot and do semi-decent in assault (if they survive to I2) and has RP is decent.

In my opinion, The Rod is worthless. Too short of range and Unwieldy isn't worth it. Voidblade and Caster is a much better option for these guys.
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SurrenderAndDie
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Couldn't agree more.

The ONLY way the Rod of Covenant would be useful is if it was changed to 12" range. (Probably not happening...)
Edited by SurrenderAndDie, Mar 14 2014, 02:46 PM.
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M0Dark
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They can't take a night scythe though, so surely that then means they can't do anything until turn 4! 2 for the scythe to come on and pick them up 3 to unload it and 4 to charge.
I hadn't looked at the voidblades for them as it is just so poor for an Overlord but on 5 guys with 2 attacks (3 on the charge) could be worth it.
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SurrenderAndDie
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M0Dark
Mar 14 2014, 02:47 PM
They can't take a night scythe though, so surely that then means they can't do anything until turn 4! 2 for the scythe to come on and pick them up 3 to unload it and 4 to charge.
I hadn't looked at the voidblades for them as it is just so poor for an Overlord but on 5 guys with 2 attacks (3 on the charge) could be worth it.
Ummm yes they CAN take a Night Scythe! They're Jump Infantry and a Night Scythe is a Transport.... They just count as Bulky. Read the entry for Night Scythe in the codex... they can even take Jetbikes!!
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Unholyllama
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M0Dark
Mar 14 2014, 02:47 PM
They can't take a night scythe though, so surely that then means they can't do anything until turn 4! 2 for the scythe to come on and pick them up 3 to unload it and 4 to charge.
I hadn't looked at the voidblades for them as it is just so poor for an Overlord but on 5 guys with 2 attacks (3 on the charge) could be worth it.
Praetorians are jump infantry - so they can move 12" in the movement phase which is pretty good and fairly reliable to get them into close combat turn 3...turn 2 if your opponent isn't paying attention even. No need for a scythe at all with these guys.

Alternatively, you can attempt to deep strike them (which is implicitly gained via the Jump Infantry rules); however, there's risks associated with that due to scattering and reserve rolls.


EDIT: As for the Night Scythe - can embark on a Night Scythe but they cannot take a Scythe as their own dedicated transport and thus would need to hijack some other unit's scythe.
Edited by Unholyllama, Mar 14 2014, 02:50 PM.
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SurrenderAndDie
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Unholyllama
Mar 14 2014, 02:49 PM
EDIT: As for the Night Scythe - can embark on a Night Scythe but they cannot take a Scythe as their own dedicated transport and thus would need to hijack some other unit's scythe.
That's what I meant.... sorry... should've specified
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M0Dark
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Hmm, Maybe I'll try to proxy them, I have a box that I bought to get the bits for my Crypteks, but I only needed the staffs as I'm using warrior bodies, so I could either build the TP or LG without the staffs/WS, dunno which will be more use though? Both seem like far too many points for what they can do to me, but I've not used them so don't really know. I thought Scarabs looked a lot of points too but they can be brutal against the right things.
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SurrenderAndDie
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M0Dark
Mar 14 2014, 05:30 PM
Hmm, Maybe I'll try to proxy them, I have a box that I bought to get the bits for my Crypteks, but I only needed the staffs as I'm using warrior bodies, so I could either build the TP or LG without the staffs/WS, dunno which will be more use though? Both seem like far too many points for what they can do to me, but I've not used them so don't really know. I thought Scarabs looked a lot of points too but they can be brutal against the right things.
Either LG or TP are really situational units to think about taking....

I won't field them in games under 2000pts.

Lychguard can be a nasty unit, especially if you tack on Obyron!

Proxying them first is smart! It's what I did.
Edited by SurrenderAndDie, Mar 14 2014, 05:35 PM.
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Unholyllama
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Scarabs are great in so many situations - their largest issue at the moment is the mass amount of S6 and higher weapons that are out there. That said, they are great.

Back to Praetorians - Overall, they are not considered as good of an assault unit as Wraiths are. Truth be told, Wraiths are probably a bit under-costed for what you get. A full unit of 6 Wraiths with 2 Whip Coils is only 10 points cheaper than 6 Praetorians. Praetorians are not a bad alternative though since they are still jump infantry, fearless, and have 2 attacks. The largest issue (comparatively) is that they don't have an invulnerable save (RP instead) and are only 1W models. They can come as a larger unit than Wraiths but the cost makes it difficult. Lastly, as an elite choice, they will never be able to score.

As for their effectiveness, I'm still testing them out from time to time myself. I'm not 100% sold on them at the moment; however, I do like them a lot more than Lychguard.
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SurrenderAndDie
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Unholyllama
Mar 14 2014, 05:42 PM
...Praetorians are not a bad alternative though since they are still jump infantry, fearless, and have 2 attacks. The largest issue (comparatively) is that they don't have an invulnerable save (RP instead) and are only 1W models. They can come as a larger unit than Wraiths but the cost makes it difficult. Lastly, as an elite choice, they will never be able to score.

As for their effectiveness, I'm still testing them out from time to time myself. I'm not 100% sold on them at the moment; however, I do like them a lot more than Lychguard.
It's funny that you have the same reasoning behind Praetorians as I do!

I've proxied Lychguard a few times and wasn't all that impressed. Maybe I was just rolling bad and my opponent was rolling good.

Either way, what sold me on VB/PC Praetorians is when I removed the armor save from a Tyrannofex in CC, he knocked the remaining Praetorinas down, consolidated, then I shot him dead with 10 Warriors! *pew pew*

(Yes I had to write *pew pew* for effect! :P)
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Jedziah
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Rods of Covenent are meant to be used for Cryptek conversions...Didn't you get the errata in the box? :)

VB/PC Praetorians with a Res DLord are absolutely scary. They provide the nice counter engage to my advancing blobs of immortals.
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M0Dark
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Maybe I'll try them out then. See if I can proxy my court as them for a game or two.
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SurrenderAndDie
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Jedziah
Mar 14 2014, 09:48 PM
Rods of Covenent are meant to be used for Cryptek conversions...Didn't you get the errata in the box? :)
Lol!

Unfortunately no! Guess GW "forgot" to include them in my particular box I bought! :P
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hierarchmark
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Sorry, late to the game. So you can't fire the rod in the shooting phase and then assault with them? Where did I miss that rule?
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M0Dark
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BRB weapons section. Any weapon with 2 profiles may only be used in one phase each Turn. So you can overwatch then fight but not shoot then fight. There is pretty much only Rod of covenant, gauntlet of fire and I think scorcha's that this effects but there could be more.
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Unholyllama
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More specifically: BRB page 51, 1st columnd, 2nd paragraph

Quote:
 
Some weapons can be used in combat as well as shooting. Where this is the case, there will be a separate line in the weapon's profile for each, and you can choose which to use each turn.


The "per phase" thing is more focused on weapons with multiple shooting options (like marine missile launchers able to shoot frag or krak); however, overall, you can only use 1 one profile per player turn.
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Olfgund
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Interesting, can't remember for the rod but the gauntlet of fire as only one line in its profile (shooting) and special rule for its use a ccw
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M0Dark
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The rod was FAQ'd with a shooting and melee profile, the Gauntlet however has no second profile for melee so you can shoot and fight. I was wrong earlier.
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