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Nightshroud bomber tactics/observations
Topic Started: Jun 9 2014, 08:48 PM (1,714 Views)
OhLongJohnson
Cryptek
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Hey there! I thought we could discuss a bit about the nightshroud-bomber...a unit I hardly ever see in any list.

It comes with a huge bunch of points (more than necron Monolith, less than tesseract arc). Profile is not that bad:
Flier, 12/12/12 4 HP.

It is equipped with 5 bombs, which have also impressive profiles: S10 AP1 Bomb, Large blast, pinning, blind
Has also-like all our fliers- a twinlinked tesla destructor

So now my thoughts about it:
- It his quite hard to crack with its armor and the amount of HP. With the new rules for penetration hits, a high number of HP is even more effective (as you wont be able to pop it directly as easy).
- bombs do not scatter a lot (just 1 D6)...however, you drop them in MOVEMENT phase by moving over enemy units
- dropping in the movement phase means getting still the alpha strike even if enemy has interceptor. Interceptor shoots at END of your movement phase, doesnt it?
- Dropping bombs in movement phase does sadly mean they do not profit from the Stalkers TL
- in 6th rulebook it clearly states you can drop a bomb at one target and shoot on another in the shooting phase, autoincluded splitfire! (however, do not know if the same in 7th)
- dropping in movement phase would mean DROPPING BOMBS EVEN WHEN JINKED BEFORE. This is huge! 4+ cover save all the time and still dropping bombs? hell yeah!


The last point is the most important one. That could be what gives it the edge over the doom scythe (which cant shoot its deathray after jinking).
However, I do not have the 7th rulebook yet...so tell me if there is anything new in the rulebook that prevents us from dropping bombs after jinking!

If there is not...nightshroud bomber could have become pretty awesome in 7th edition!
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OhLongJohnson
Cryptek
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Hm.. i looked up the rules and I am not so shure anymore about the jinking and bombing.
Jinking makes you fire snapshots your whole next turn (even in movement phase)...now, the question is: Is a bomb a weapon? Is a bomb be "fired" or is it more of a special ability?
If a bomb is a weapon, than it couldnt snapshot as its a blast weapon.
If a bomb is a special ability, it would not be affected by jinking...

I think we'd have to wait for a similar FAQ...

Another thing I noticed which is quite hardcore: Bombs became barrage weapons. What does that mean? Wound allocation from the CENTER of the blast weapon. What does that mean? Bombs are actually sniping weapons (just scatter 1 D6)...combine that with S10 and you instantkill enemy warlords with T<6 (nearly all of em)
Barrage also means they come from "above", so most cover saves are gonna dissappear.
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Olfgund
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Praetorian
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GW is unlikely to FAQ that unit as it is from Forge World, but you could check at the Tau FAQ for any changes to the Tau SunShark bomber
Dropping bomb in the movement phase count as firing a weapon in the shooting phase for number of weapon used so pretty sure it would not be allowed after Jink.

Barrage wounds come from the center of the blast marker so you draw your LOS from the center to the target. If there is something intervening that obscure the model by more than 25% from the blast center point, that model gets a cover save. If two models are standing on opposite side of a defence line and are both hit by the marker, the one on the side where the blast's center hits does not gets a save but the guy on the other side gets one.
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OhLongJohnson
Cryptek
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Quote:
 
GW is unlikely to FAQ that unit as it is from Forge World, but you could check at the Tau FAQ for any changes to the Tau SunShark bomber
Dropping bomb in the movement phase count as firing a weapon in the shooting phase for number of weapon used so pretty sure it would not be allowed after Jink.


True that! I was thinking the exact same thing...wait for a TAU faq dealing with the sun shark bomber.

Quote:
 
Barrage wounds come from the center of the blast marker so you draw your LOS from the center to the target. If there is something intervening that obscure the model by more than 25% from the blast center point, that model gets a cover save. If two models are standing on opposite side of a defence line and are both hit by the marker, the one on the side where the blast's center hits does not gets a save but the guy on the other side gets one.


Also true, but usually doesnt happen. Also in ruins they would get a cover save even if not obscured...but these are special cases...

Edit: lol, just looked up the Tau FAQ: "FAQs: none" who mas has the ability to drop bombs (not forgeworld)?
Edited by OhLongJohnson, Jun 10 2014, 05:37 PM.
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OhLongJohnson
Cryptek
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Hey, just gave it another thought...what about maynarkh army with nightshroud bombers??
take toholk the blinded and give them "It will not die!"...also profit from his warlord trait (+1 or -1 on reserve rolls...you decide)

Now, THe nighshroudbombers arrive, bomb...and if they get into heavy fire jink. Then leave comat airspace and return the subsequent turn. As they have "It will not die" they have a good chance of regaining lost HP. (One roll after the enemy shooting phase that provoced "jink" and one roll the turn they return. Thus, the chance of restoring 1 HP is more than 50%!!!)

This will give you about 3 bombing runs if you jink all the time, and about 5 bombing runs if you never jink (and never leave combat airspace). Enough to make its points back!
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Xeksen
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Warrior
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Wait, do you mean you can drop 5 bombs each turn?
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OhLongJohnson
Cryptek
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No you cant...just 1 bomb/turn/bomber....its in the rules!
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cloakable
Canoptek Scarab
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No, a Night Shroud has five bombs, and can drop one in the friendly movement phase (provided it's present)

[edit]
Ninja'd!
Edited by cloakable, Jun 15 2014, 10:49 PM.
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Elithren
Food
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Registered to contribute, Bombs are found in the BRB under the weapons section (I'd give page numbers but I have the ipad version), which would mean they are weapons and not special abilities (which would be under the special rules section or specific codex). In the first paragraph of the section: "In this section, we describe how the myriad types of weapon work in the Warhammer 40000 game.", so we know that since bombs fall under this section, it counts as a weapon. It further backs this by saying: "If a model drops a bomb, it counts as having already fired one weapon". So RAW/RAI, it's a weapon that is "shot" during the movement phase instead of the shooting.

As for shooting it after jinking, jink says the model can only fire snap shots until the end of their next turn. Looking at the rules for snap shots, it says the following: "Some weapon types, such as Template and Ordnance, or those that have certain special rules, such as Blast, cannot be fired as Snap Shots. In addition, any shooting attack that does not use a Ballistic Skill cannot be 'fired' as a Snap Shot." So any weapon that doesn't use BS or has one of the listed attributes cannot be used as Snap Shots. Large Blast falls under Blast in the special rules so that alone would stop it from being used, as a Bomb is a weapon and does have Large Blast in it's attribute. Looking past that attribute, it's further negated due to it not using a BS to fire.

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OhLongJohnson
Cryptek
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I do think you are right, however it does nowhere say that bombs are getting fired. "Bombing runs are a special form of attack" (or something similar in the rulebook).

So there is still a shadow of doubt (one example: CCB can use their CC weapons in sweeping attacks, however, these attacks do NOT count as CC-attacks (see trazyn the infinite FAQ)

So rulewise, it might be posible to use a shooting weapon (bomb) without actually performing a shooting attack.

However, I think this will get faq'd pretty soon. And (as I stated in my second post) I wont try to use bombs after jinking.
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SurrenderAndDie
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Lychguard
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I've read your thoughts and comments OLJ, and it's definitely made me think about the Nightshroud again!

I have been eyeballing that particular model for a VERY long time! I think for the pts cost, you get a stellar flyer that is going to be REALLY f*ing hard to take down with AV12 and 4HP!!

It would be great if someone has had some experience with its rules in 6th and/or 7th so the rest of us (me included!) could make an informed decision on whether its a viable flyer option to include in our lists!

That being said, has anyone here used a Nightshroud before??
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Magister Jaigo
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Cryptek
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I only join you in the considering the model part and wanting to know if it is worth its points.
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OhLongJohnson
Cryptek
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I think I will try out (proxy) the bomber soon.

Pointwise it seems good on paper. AV12 all the way and +1 HP makes it considerably harder to kill than doomscythe, for just 1 spider more of pointcost.
Combine that with not open topped and new damage table it gets pretty hard to shoot down.

However, game experience is necesary (just proxy it with normal scythes).
The forgeworld model is great, I love it!
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SurrenderAndDie
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Lychguard
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Keep us posted on how the Nightshroud works for you OLJ!

We're eager to know! ;)
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Oberron
Destroyer
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and as always spam and eggs. Toss in zhandrek and give it stealth if you think it's gonna be focused fired at or Tank hunter for making armor cry.
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cloakable
Canoptek Scarab
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Remember that you can take them in a Flyer Wing formation (in the Apocalypse codex) for free! Free up those Heavy Support slots, and get some tasty special rules if you move them right.

Nightshroud bombers with Preferred Enemy? Mmmhm.
Supersonic not cutting it for mobility? How about an extra 12" on top?
Don't have Zhandrek? Give 'em Tank Hunters anyway!

Oh, and the staff at my local GW are of the opinion you can put Night Scythes in that formation. Welcome to hell.
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OhLongJohnson
Cryptek
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I do not know that flier formation thing! Seems apoc though, isnt it??

Hey, another thing I've noticed/another question:
Bombs are dropped in the movement phase. May I drop a bomb with a flier that has left combat airspace? Can I move lets say 36'' over an enemy model, leaving combat airspace but still drop a bomb?
Its not clear, as the flier leaves the board and thus may not be able to make an "attack" such as the bombing run...although on the other hand, logically, it makes this attack the moment It flies over the enemy unit.

Second question: May I leave combat airspace flatting out in the shooting phase?

Explanation:
If it is possible do drop a bomb in the movement phase you leave combat airspace, or if it is possible to leave combat airspace flatting out, the bomber gets a huge boost. He might drop a bomb EVERY TURN, but be on the battlefield for the opponent just EVERY SECOND TURN...combine that with "it will not die" and its huge.
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cloakable
Canoptek Scarab
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It IS apoc yes! Not sure if those count as detachments in regular games, but the local GW didn't seem to see a problem when I raised it as a possibility.

That's a pair of tricky questions! RAW it can't, as it's off the board, though I'd say RAI it would count. You can't leave the board the turn you come on, so you're not avoiding interceptor fire.

Second I would also argue yes! Flyers go into Ongoing Reserve when you leave the board with a Zoom move, so the same should probably apply to going Flat-Out too.
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OhLongJohnson
Cryptek
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Arg, did just read bombing run rules...you cant flat out after dropping bombs :(

Edit: I've just read around in some forums...it seems the people at advanced Tau tactica and DakkaDakka think you CAN drop a bomb the same turn you leave combat airspace (in your movement phase)...however be aware that you cant leave combat airspace the moment you arrive.
Edited by OhLongJohnson, Jun 27 2014, 11:22 PM.
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SurrenderAndDie
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Lychguard
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cloakable
Jun 27 2014, 03:34 PM
It IS apoc yes! Not sure if those count as detachments in regular games, but the local GW didn't seem to see a problem when I raised it as a possibility.
Still, you should be able to use ONE Nightshroud in a normal game of 40K even if it does take up a Heavy slot no?
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