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Whip Coils and Time's Arrow
Topic Started: Jun 19 2014, 11:31 PM (346 Views)
deth110
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Lychguard
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Does Whip Coils and Time's Arrow work.
The whip coils reduce initiative to 1 and time's arrow farces a initiative test or be removed as a casualty.
I've been wondering for a while if this would work (rule wise) and have always thought it would be an awesome combo against MC and IC.
Thanks!
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OhLongJohnson
Cryptek
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I see no reason why it shouldnt work, I'm actually convinced it works.
However, if the ctan is in a challenge it doesnt work (just Ctan in basecontact), so keep that in mind
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Unholyllama
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Lord
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This trick works quite well ever since the codex came out. As OLJ pointed out though, the C'Tan in a challenge may weaken such.

With the changes to challenges tough, I need to see if it's possible for whip coils to trigger regardless.
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OhLongJohnson
Cryptek
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Did you find out anything about new challenge rules?
Does the "only the models in a challenge are in basecontact" rule still have effect?

If not, necrons would profit greatly (whip coils)
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OhLongJohnson
Cryptek
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I just looked it up in the Rulebook, and it seems the "only the models in a challenge are in basecontact" phrase is gone.
It now says "For the duration of the challenge, these models are considered in basecontact". It doesnt say anything about the rest of the models, which makes me assume the models in a challenge are still in basecontact with outside forces. This would mean the whip coils would affect models in a challenge (tricky sneaky necrons).

This enables greatly the C'tan combo. I can also think about a tesseract-labyrinth-whip-coils-combo.

It would also mean that MSS could affect models inside a challenge! With MSS you are not allocating wounds to the challenger, so its legal. This is extremely mean against single caracters, as you might challenge them (they have to accept) and bring them into a position surrounded by several MSS.
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Unholyllama
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Lord
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Just looked it up myself. This is indeed true as it also coincides with the issue of killing something with HoW, if nothing else is in base contact, you can't swing when it's your turn to. The outside forces would have to move in.

So with this, yes, if your whip coils are in base to base and your c'tan gets challenged, the whip coils are still in affect.
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Adriaantje
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Immortal
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Doesn't this also mean that if you MSS a character in a challenge, he first MUST attack his squad members,
before hitting himself as the last target?
If so, this may be a nerf of some sorts, as it might slow down the death of the character in the challenge.
I'm gonna have to look this up in more detail
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Unholyllama
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Lord
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MSS's FAQ states "or on himself if on his own or in a challenge" with regards to allocating the D3 hits. So we're good on that concern still.
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Olfgund
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Praetorian
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Unholyllama
Jun 23 2014, 04:19 PM
MSS's FAQ states "or on himself if on his own or in a challenge" with regards to allocating the D3 hits. So we're good on that concern still.
and the excess MSS-caused wounds (if any) would spill on the rest of the enemy unit once the character is dead, as per 7th challenge rules? that's even better
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Unholyllama
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Lord
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Olfgund
Jun 23 2014, 04:24 PM
Unholyllama
Jun 23 2014, 04:19 PM
MSS's FAQ states "or on himself if on his own or in a challenge" with regards to allocating the D3 hits. So we're good on that concern still.
and the excess MSS-caused wounds (if any) would spill on the rest of the enemy unit once the character is dead, as per 7th challenge rules? that's even better
No clue on the overflow. Really, of all of the changes in 7th, I think challenges became way too over complicated and didn't need to be changed; despite the changes are arguably for the better for us.
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OhLongJohnson
Cryptek
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I think it was Ok that challenges got changed and that wounds can flow out of challenges now. It was just so ridiculous to charge some unit with a demon prince /C'tan and then lose one turn of CC just killing the Space marine sargeant...doesnt seem fair and kills the fluff.

Another thing: Do you think we can affect models inside challenges with Tesseract labyrinth or Times arrow? At the end of the day, we are not allocating wounds, are we?
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Unholyllama
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Lord
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OhLongJohnson
Jun 23 2014, 04:47 PM
I think it was Ok that challenges got changed and that wounds can flow out of challenges now. It was just so ridiculous to charge some unit with a demon prince /C'tan and then lose one turn of CC just killing the Space marine sargeant...doesnt seem fair and kills the fluff.

Another thing: Do you think we can affect models inside challenges with Tesseract labyrinth or Times arrow? At the end of the day, we are not allocating wounds, are we?
Well the FAQ does address when Times Arrow and Whip Coils trigger. Technically speaking, it's at the same time as declaring a challenge (at the beginning of the fight-subphase before blows are struck).

Tesseract Labyrinth is a bit different - it can only be done in place of making close combat attacks and requires you to be in base contact with an enemy character, MC, or FMC. RAW, I would say that such could work against characters locked in a challenge as the only requirement is base contact. This is one of those that would easily be debated though because of the new challenge rules and would probably result in a roll off.
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Carnotek
Flayed One
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Arnt character tests always taken on unmodified stat ?
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gravmyr
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Deathmark
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I have heard this many times yet there is no rule that states this.
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Unholyllama
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Lord
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Carnotek
Jun 26 2014, 11:54 AM
Arnt character tests always taken on unmodified stat ?
Nope. Characters take characteristic tests as normal - I too have heard this a lot and I think it comes from the fact that characteristic tests are at a per model and not per unit basis. So in many instances, the character that is joined to a unit will have different stats than the rest of the unit.

But overall, no. If Lelith Hesperax for the DE is touching a whip coiled Wraith, her I9 turns into I1 and she's removed by Time's Arrow if she doesn't roll a 1.
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OhLongJohnson
Cryptek
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One thing we also have to mention: Caracteristic tests on a 6 are always failed. That means even if the target has I9, the times arrow bans it directly in 1/6 of the cases. (independent from whip coils). That makes times arrow my favorite c'tan power.
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Unholyllama
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Lord
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OhLongJohnson
Jun 26 2014, 03:14 PM
One thing we also have to mention: Caracteristic tests on a 6 are always failed. That means even if the target has I9, the times arrow bans it directly in 1/6 of the cases. (independent from whip coils). That makes times arrow my favorite c'tan power.
Any Space Wolf player knows the "6 always fails" all too well. Jaws was a characteristic test and I've seen so many Wraithknights, Riptides, and other mean MCs fall quickly - all because they rolled that single 6 instead of anything lower.
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