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| 7th Edition Unit Review - Triarch Stalkers | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jul 1 2014, 08:03 PM (2,546 Views) | |
| Idaho | Jul 1 2014, 08:03 PM Post #1 |
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Lychguard
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I'm thinking of getting discussions going on units in the army list in the context of the latest edition of the rules. This will be a series with a focus on a single unit at a time for a decent amount of time before we flood the tactica with the next tactica. Threads will go on as long as they have to! So with that out of the way... Triarch Stalkers Penetrates are less likely to kill off the vehicle and they are also not that likely to suffer a destroyed weapon result (same chance as last time). Thanks to AV13 we can saturate the table with another high armour choice. So what do people think? What anecdotes are flying around out there? Rap with me. |
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| OhLongJohnson | Jul 1 2014, 08:19 PM Post #2 |
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Cryptek
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One recent anecdote: Triarch Stalker blowing enemy aircraft from the sky. Within 12'', shoots, gets one pen, opponent fails jink, boom. Besides from the anecdote: One of my favorite units due to synergy. Improves everything thats not TL anyways. Several of em combine well with each other, unless you give them all gauss (dont, maybe 1 Gauss but not more). It seems too much points for a single walking gun, but its not. TL all the way. Heat-rays heavy flamer is nice to punish deepstriker. One disadvantage: They are big and their legs spread. That means every battlecannon /big pie plate that fires at them will hit em because it will touch at least one of the legs. Edited by OhLongJohnson, Jul 1 2014, 08:20 PM.
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| Magister Jaigo | Jul 1 2014, 09:43 PM Post #3 |
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Cryptek
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Really one of my fav necron models. It always draws attention from the crowd. I tend to keep it in ruins because of the cover regardless of being obscured. I agree. Love this unit for synergy I stuff it in any list I can justify it. My only point of negativity is its cc power. It is just on the edge of being good and bad. So perhaps just where it needs to be. yet if I may whine... I would have loved it a bit in the good scale. Dreadnought ccw would have been enough. It is never been a bad unit in my army. Av13 really is much harder this edition. last week it won me the game. T1 it got its heatray destroyed. Oponent went and ignored it. Good decision at that point. I just went and walked to his side. Wrecking a razorback. Tarpitting the marines and actualy killing them in t4. T5 I grabbed an objective that tipped the scale. I needed at least 2 objectives and twice more then opponent Grating me a d3 VP. In the end it was the edge I needed to win by 1 vp. no shot fired. Still usefull Edited by Magister Jaigo, Jul 1 2014, 09:45 PM.
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| Unholyllama | Jul 1 2014, 10:09 PM Post #4 |
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Lord
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For me, the Triarch Stalker is a great unit to add to any list because of how it synergizes. This became even more important in 7th as it comes with the option of taking 2 of our limited range of AP2 or better weapons. The unit itself only gained a slight boost on surviveability. Most weapons that can punch through AV13 can punch come with an AV2 or better value. This, paired with the Stalker being Openned Top, makes it just about as easy to be blown up as before. While explodes has went to 7, weapon destroyed and Immobalized have moved up as well - both of which are equally debilitating. From an aggressive perspective - the I used to not take the heat ray since the HGC had the range (and TL) and the Particle Shredder had the scattering odds (and potential of hitting multiple targets). Hitting a Land Raider with a HGC is not bad - but pales in comparison to the 10 warriors in rapid fire range and with Tank Hunter :-D. Now with 7th though, I almost only run the Heat Ray as it is Heavy 2, AP1, and provides a heavy flamer in the event enemy units get too close. As Jaigo stated, the largest weakness is that it is so bad in close combat. Had it a single Dreadnought Close Combat Weapon, it would be really good but as it is, get something into close combat with it and it's pretty much stuck there all game. Anecdotes though - I remember a game where it was the last model I had on the table. With the HGC, I shot at a Vendetta - hit - pen - explodes....crashes on top of his command squads and kills his warlord. I still lost the game due to being tabled but it didn't matter after that. |
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| OhLongJohnson | Jul 1 2014, 10:41 PM Post #5 |
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Cryptek
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Not shure if it would be worth the pain to run the stalkers in combination with repair-spiders. On one hand repairing is nice as both immobilized and weapon destroyed are pretty bad for the stalker (those can be removed)... On the other hand the quantum does not get restored, which sucks..which is why it might not be worth the pain to actually repair the stalker. In my experience, necron vehicles with their quantum down are pretty much doomed anyways. Also spiders dont synergize all that well with stalkers...they dont profit from TL... I dont know, any thoughts on that? Worth the pain to get spiders to repair those stalkers?? About that "getting tarpitted", you can also use that in your favor! Stalkers front armor is 13, thats pretty hard to crack. You could for example use the flamer against an ork blop, then charge it, possibly tarpitting it for several turns. There are special CC-units with low S (like forceweapon-blops, or deathcompany). These ones you can just tarpid with your stalkers while escaping with the rest of your army! The ork-blop thing can lead to a hilarious situation. Imagine the orks piled in around the stalker, then the Nob with powerclaw destroys the stalker with "pen and boom"...the stalker explodes and kills half of the orkblop xD (explosion is now S4) Edited by OhLongJohnson, Jul 1 2014, 10:57 PM.
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| Magister Jaigo | Jul 2 2014, 06:44 AM Post #6 |
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Cryptek
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As unholy said. When they get through the shield.Boom... usualy there is nothing left. Or soon ended. I never had a chance to repair anything other then an arc. Wich as you point out. remains av11 It usualy just is not worth the effort |
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| Oberron | Jul 2 2014, 09:16 AM Post #7 |
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Destroyer
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i see stalkers' biggest use being used one of two way both of them different view points. First is giving the DDark TL on its DDcannon. it makes me wheep everytime it scatters way off and i felt like i might have just done nothing with it. the TL from the stalker pretty much assures that i'll hit with the one shot. it works with the monolith's blast as well and gauss. And of course if you have multiple you can TL each other or for multiple units. A bare bones list could be Stalker w/heat ray Stalker w/ HGC Stalker w/ HGC/heat ray/ or Particle shredder (i'd go double HGC for the extra range but really you can't go wrong with anything for a 3rd.) Destroyers (2-4) Destroyers(2-4) Destroyers(2-4) TL helps them nearly never miss. While it doesn't help them as much as others because of P.E. Nothing in FA really gets much help at all from TL. Use heavies if you like but I'd rather go with the DDarks and stalkers to shread vehicles and normal destroyers for MEQ hunting. Once again just my viewpoint so season to taste. DDark DDark/monolith DDark/monolith/spyders (once again go with whatever you think would help. If going vehicle spam spyders might be good to repair the DDarks to keep them alive longer. Monolith for scooting warrior packs around the field with ease or a 3rd DDark for more long range dakka and try to tie everything else up with stalkers, warriors/imortals and w/e you have for FA.) Pretty much first tactic is get as much as you can from the heaviest hitting things we have that don't already have TL. The second tactic is the other way and is simply another form of what I said above except with non-vehicles. Death by paper cuts. Get 20man blobs of warriors or 10 immortals w/tesla and you have some very very high hit ratios and drown everything in hits, toss in a destroyer lord in each group and make them drown in wounds too, but once again its double dipping into the TL part from the stalker so season to taste. You could even drop a stalker and replace it with a group of deathmarks, or even a c'tan shard with pyreshards and moulder of worlds to drown a squad in it. The main focus for the stalkers in this is even more of a support unit than in the vehicle spam list to make sure the warrior/immortal blobs get the most out of their shots and at half range getting twice the shots all with TL of a 20man strong warrior blob i would assume would mean the death of just about anything. The biggest weakness of the first set up is the stalkers will need some protection because they make all your big guns really scary. in the second type they arn't as important so can afford to not use the HGC and stick with heat rays and get in the action. This is just some stuff off the cuff and i haven't done any math hammer on it, just eyeballing it. Most importantly i hope this helps anyone with it. (edit)oh and i'm not entirely sure if this is 7th legit or not but as long as the stalker isn't exploded and removed from the field it can still be repaired by a spyder. I heard this from word of mouth and thought it was weird but just wanted to toss this out to you guys in case it was or if anyone wants to do some fact checking. Edited by Oberron, Jul 2 2014, 09:19 AM.
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| Idaho | Jul 2 2014, 10:12 AM Post #8 |
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Lychguard
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Do we think Stalkers are best with armies that are heavy in infantry or a mechanised force? As for CC ability, I think Walkers need a variant of Stomp, called Sweep. Basically it's i1, single blast template placed like Stomp, basic strength. Additionally I've always thought, since they're more agile, all walkers should count penetrates as glances unless they are at least +2 over the AV. More realistic as the angled shot lowers the penetrative power of weapons etc and fixes the weakling Walkers in all armies. |
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| Magister Jaigo | Jul 2 2014, 11:06 AM Post #9 |
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Cryptek
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Interesting concept, a stomp would be so nice, and bring back more walkers in 40k. The pen/glance option would aid. I would even welcome that as an wargear option. I am afraid that will never happen. As for where stalkers are best... Heavy infantry or mechanised is not that easy to judge. Heavy infantry being lots of warriors, then yes. Heavy infantry meaning immortals, warriors, destroyers, deathmarks. I would include a few! Heavy mechanised works like a charm. Especialy for templates TL is nice. Annihiliation barges being already TL, I tend to use stalkers along ghostarcs as a main focus. Usualy I mix mechanised and infantry. Ghostarcs and warriors being the main body of most lists I make. I really like TL, even aids when arc jinked and fires snapshots. In 7th more so then in 6th I add at least one stalker. |
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| OhLongJohnson | Jul 2 2014, 02:43 PM Post #10 |
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Cryptek
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In my experience, stalker does work well in infantry hordes and with a lot of GAs (I love GAs), however I recently made some "heavy armory lists" that base more on heavy vehicles/big pie plates. One does even mention your doomsday cannon (puts it on a skyshield for the 4+ invul) As for the problem that your stalkers can get shot out in heavy armory lists: I dont think thats an issue. If you have 3 of em and your opponent wants to destroy all, he will have to let alone your heavy weapons. Its some kind of loss-loss-situation for the opponent. He shoots at heavy weapons: Stalker support remains. He shoots at stalkers: Heavy weapons keep shooting. As for repairing: First: I think if the vehicle is wrecked (0 HP) the repairing doesnt work. Second: I think repairing would get viable if they would allow us (via FAQ or something else) to restore the quantum shielding. Then it would rock. Edited by OhLongJohnson, Jul 2 2014, 02:44 PM.
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| Unholyllama | Jul 2 2014, 03:39 PM Post #11 |
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Lord
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I have only ran 2 at a time (don't own a 3rd); however, I can see them being menacing towards just about anything ground based in any combination. 3 Heat Rays - great for horde control and popping vehicles 3 HGCs - Longer range, high strength, TL'ed - catch those annoying jump MCs and back field armor. 3 Particle Shredders - Large Blasts for everyone! Any Combination - Forces your opponent to figure out which is the larger priority. Again though, the worst part about them is if they get into close combat with something. It just turns painful to get stuck. |
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| OhLongJohnson | Jul 2 2014, 05:28 PM Post #12 |
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Cryptek
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Unholy, you have quite some game experience. Did you ever lose both of your Stalkers (in a game where you didnt get tabled)? Did you ever feel that 3 Stalkers could be better, or were 2 Stalkers always enough (shooty-whise and for marking targets)? Ah another thing: I think the Stalker-Monolith combo is pretty viable, because of six reasons: 1: Monolith profits greatly from marking. 2: They move at about the same speed 3: Stalker is close to mark targets for units that step out of the monoliths gate (often within doble tap range) 4: Opponents may deepstrike melta-units to kill either stalker or monolith. In both cases, they get punished. In first case (stalker destroyed) the monolith can put its pie plate over the freshly deepstriked enemy, in second case (monolith destroyed) the stalker (heatray) may punish the deepstrikers with its flamer. 5: It should be easy to hide 25% of the Stalker behind the monolith. The coversave may save your stalker. 6: If your stalker gets charged and tarpitted the monolith may use its vacuum-cleaner attack to suck in the attackers and free the stalker again. The stalker itself cant get sucked in, as the monoliths vacuum-cleaner attack does not affect friendly models (I just found out it doesnt affect friendly models! its so nice) Edited by OhLongJohnson, Jul 2 2014, 05:39 PM.
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| Unholyllama | Jul 2 2014, 05:56 PM Post #13 |
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Lord
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I've had a number of games where I ran 2 and have lost both and didn't get tabled (I haven't been tabled in a while). In those games - the stalkers get targeted before my barges and arks which is preferable in many cases. In my experiences, running Particle Shredders make them a larger, overall threat to my opponents due to general impact. 1-2 shots from the HGC or Heat Ray respectively is great but focuses the role more towards marking units than removing models. The Shredder does that with less potency against vehicles but greatly adds anti-infantry options as well. If armor is out of range or completely destroyed, the HGC and Heat Ray lose some of their efficiency. Running 3 would allow me to have more redundancy and provide another distraction/threat to my opponent though would completely fill up my elites (preventing me from using deathmarks and remain battle-forged). 3 would also allow me better board coverage. Running 2 Stalkers allows me to mark a couple options within a good 66% of the board. I can spread them out more but usually if I am TL'ing things,the threat coverage is limited. A 3rd would allow me to get the true majority of the board and address some cover or line of site issues. Furthermore, 3 would pretty much ensure that I target 2 different enemy units. With 2, I tend to focus on stalkers as anti-vehicle and that usually requires both firing on the same target (which is nice with heat rays as 1 stalker TLs the other). A 3rd would allow me to run 2 as anti-armor and 1 as a utility or anti-infantry model. I agree they are great with Monoliths (or DD arks). The only issue I have with Monoliths is that they are Heavy (aka slow as hell) and greatly over priced for their particle whip. Concerning the Portal of Exile to support tarpitted stalkers - can't happen as the portal counts as a shooting attack and thus cannot "shoot" into close combat. That said, the Monolith being used as a mobile wall to hide 25% of the stalker is not a bad idea though I would be concern about limited visibility caused by my monolith being so close to my stalker. |
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| Olfgund | Jul 2 2014, 06:25 PM Post #14 |
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Praetorian
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I had similar experience: my stalker gets targetted first for the first kill (compared to ark, they don't have jink and area terrain is gone) and also to stop the synergy. Which in turn has made me hide them more... which in turn made the heat ray (a very good weapon option on paper) sometime lacking range to get at a specific target. I mostly select heat ray (two actual AP1 shots, dual firing option profiles) but then on field, I sometime wish I had the 36" gauss weapon! deathmarks or multiple stalker redundancy, that is the question |
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| Unholyllama | Jul 2 2014, 06:42 PM Post #15 |
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Lord
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for the cost of a base (heat ray) Triarch Stalker, you can afford 7 Deathmarks. 8 for the price of a stalker with either gun upgrade. Even without the night scythe, those deathmarks are definitely more able to take out a single MC or small-to-mid sized infantry unit better than a stalker. Will they survive as easily if they fail - no but in the current game of 40k - it seems to be more about the sword rather than the shield. |
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| Olfgund | Jul 2 2014, 06:58 PM Post #16 |
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Praetorian
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True and if we compare even more, the stalker is a team player: the bigger the team (high point games), the bigger the potential synergy deathmarks are more solo commandos; they synergyse mostly by having more deathmark units (more marked targets) or having a despairtek joining them |
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| OhLongJohnson | Jul 2 2014, 10:55 PM Post #17 |
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Cryptek
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Unholy: I think the gate can "shoot" into CC, as you dont target anything. Rules say, you cant TARGET units locked in CC, however you can HIT them (for example: It is totally Ok for a big blast to scatter into CC. It WILL hit units in CC, you just can target the unit in CC). The gate does not pick any target. You roll for a range, everything in range is hit. As you dont pick a target, rulewise you CAN shoot into CC. (same with deathray: You dont pick a target, you just shoot at a spot on the battlefield, if troops are in its way...their bad) So, rulewise there is actually nothing preventing you from "attacking" units locked in combat with either the gate or the deathray. I also dont think monoliths are that overpriced. They are like 50 points more expensive than a leman Russ, but have AV14 all around (good in CC!), have one more HP, same strength-and-ap-weapon, can teleport friendly units to their gates (great support unit), may suck in units with its portal, have better BS Yes, they lack range compared to the leman russ, but the synergy options necrons have makes up for it. YOu cant get that leman Russ TL...the monolith you can in combination with a stalker. You cant give the leman russ tankhunters...but you can give the monolith tankhunters. So while its true that a monolith could be quite costy if you dont use synergy, it gets very strong if used correctly. A Edited by OhLongJohnson, Jul 2 2014, 11:08 PM.
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| Magister Jaigo | Jul 3 2014, 07:23 AM Post #18 |
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Cryptek
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I also use my tesseract arc. The 3 plasma templates getting TL... awsome |
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| OhLongJohnson | Jul 3 2014, 03:28 PM Post #19 |
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Cryptek
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Yes, I think the tesseract arc combines really really well with the Stalker. 3 TL plasma templates....awesome. Can even wreck light vehicles with tankhuters Fleshbane template with TL? Means everything it touches thats 3+ or worse dies :D And the tesseract arc has also 2 Gauss cannons...getting those TL is really nice. Tesseract Arc does seem a bit squishy to me, however I have 0 experience with it. What I still not understand: Are those Forgeworld models (tesseract arc, pylons etc) allowed at tournaments?? Are they like "real" GW-units?? |
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| Magister Jaigo | Jul 3 2014, 04:55 PM Post #20 |
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Cryptek
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Yup they are legal to play in all regards However most tournaments specify which supplements dataslates and imperial armour books they allow. The 2 main organisers I attent tournaments from do allow IA12 only 1 sometimes does not include IA books. The tesseract arc is just awsome. It is such a firepower unit. It has range and so many options. As you said. the plasma and gauss being the main pain. The flamer has also killed soooo many marines. I had it destroyed first time I used it by having sternguard in a droppod behind it. It was risky but paid off. Other than that it usualy endures and dominates the field thanks to its invul and av14. And being a nasty unit to charge Even the back off 12 helps! In cc it had been destroyed a few times and explodes taking a few along! Edited by Magister Jaigo, Jul 3 2014, 04:58 PM.
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