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Closer look at Imothek
Topic Started: Jul 25 2014, 09:19 PM (412 Views)
OhLongJohnson
Cryptek
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Hey there, inspired by one of the lists posted ultimately, I decided to take another look at Imothek, an IC I use rather rarely.

Stateline:
is the one of a basic overlord.
Wargear:
Weave, Phase shifter, phylactery, gauntlet of fire, Phaeron

Pointwise he still costs 35 points more than a normal Overlord with the same wargear. (I count phaeron as wargear)
For these points, you get a set of special rules. I will take a closer look at those:

Bloodswarm nanoscarabs.
Your flayed one units do not scatter when landing next to a RANDOMLY marked enemy unit.
This one usually doesnt help us. Most people dont use flayed ones, and the biggest problem for me is the RANDOM mark.
Posible use:
If you join a destroyer lord to a unit of flayed ones, both can still deepstrike and both profit of Bloodswarm nanoscarabs. You could use the flayed one as bubble-wrap of the destroyerlord and make him deepstrike spot on. 5 flayed ones are just 65 points, so for 65 points you would get some bodies and buy your destroyer lord a "if landing 6'' next to a random unit he doesnt scatter"-upgrade.
Bloodswarm nanoscarabs (if opponent knows you use flayed ones) could also be a psicological threat, forcing him to keep the infested unit in distance to the rest of his army, making it easier to destroy it.

Points I would spend on it: 0-10 (depending if using the combo)



Staff of the destroyer:
Single shot weapon. One beam S6 AP1, distance 2D6'' from the base of imothek.
This one is pretty neat, against a lot of targets (terminators) you basically get a 1-shot-deathray. That 1 shot may easily make back the 35 additional points imothek costs (example, against a unit of terminators).
Posible use:
You may use it with imothek embarked on a Ghost ark and thus use the whole length of the ghostark to draw the line (not just his base).
Even if the Ghost ark would get hit by that (its not clear) there shouldnt be a problem as S6 doesnt affect the AV13 ghost ark.
I do also think you might shoot into CC with that weapon, as you dont target any opponent and can even hit own models.

Points I would spend on it: 30-40


Humilating defeat:
If imothek kills a character in CC roll a D3. He counts as having scored that many extra wounds when determining the attack result
Is not bad. Imothek misses a warscythe, but the gauntlet helps especially against soft targets (orks). The extra wounds scored may prevent you from getting swept, which is nice. Isnt as helpful when getting charged by specialized CC-units, but may save your ass against Orks or tactical squads.

Points I would spend on it: 10


Hyperlogical strategy:
If you include imothek you seize initiative on 4+. However, can't seize initiative against orks
Great. Beginning is always nice, and with seizing on 4+ you begin in 2/3 of the cases (instead of just 1/2 of the cases). Against orks you begin in 5/12 of the cases, which is slightly worse than 1/2.
posible use:
Its always useful to start. However, you might even use him when allied with Tau. Tau profit greatly from the alpha strike (glasscannon). Yes they get hit by imotheks lightning, but you can turn it off by turn 2 to take minimal colateral damage.

Points I would spend on it: up to 30-50


Lord of Storm
Nightfighting automatically in play. You may roll every turn to keep nightfighting in play (if result greater than turn number, storm continues). While storm continues roll for every enemy unit. on a 6, it gets 1D6 S8 AP5 hits.
One of the most discussed abilities. Very difficult to mathhammer. Greatest issue is his unreliability and the randomness of it. Does also hit allied units. However, I think it might be worth the pain (scroll down for further look at it)
I have also to point out that skimmers dont get cover save against the storm, as they cant jink against it (it doesnt target them).
D6 S8 hits are also very deadly against light vehicles (does hit side armor).
It also is important to mention that Lord of storm uses random wound allocation, combine that with S8 hits it might snipe out enemy HQs if you get lucky.
Posible use:
Your skimmers do still profit from nightfighting. The +1 on the jink save may save a lot of your skimmers, especially as none really suffers from snap shot penalty.
Your scarabs and spiders also might profit from stealth. 6+ cover in the open doesnt seem a big deal, but saves 1/6 (about 16 %) of suffered wounds.
Combine imothek with a cronotek to reroll if storm continues and to reroll number of hits a unit takes if hit by the lightning. (I would not reroll the roll IF you hit but the roll HOW MANY HITS you score)

Points I would spend on it: about 30-40


Closer look at lord of storm:
Lord of storm is impossible to mathhammer. Due to that I run a small test including an enemy TAU-force. I based it on using imothek with a cronotek. I run 10 testruns, and documented the results of every turns thunder.

The Tau force (HQ doesnt matter as joined into some unit): (1850 points)
12 firewarriors in devilfish
12 firewarriors in devilfish
12 firewarriors in devilfish
17 kroot
riptide
riptide
4 marker drones
6 marker drones
3 broadsides

The results:****
1: 4 kroot killed, 1 marker drone killed. Damage: 57 points
2: no effect Damage: 0 points
3: 1 glance & 1 pen on devilfish. 2 wounds on riptide Damage: 133 points
4: 2 pens on devilfish Damage: 53 points
5: 5 kroot killed Damage: 30 points
6: 1 wound on riptide Damage: 40 points
7: 4 kroot killed Damage: 24 points
8: 3 pens on devilfish Damage: 80 points
9: 1 glance 3 pens on devilfish, 2 pens on other devilfish
3 kroot killed, 1 marker drone killed Damage: 165 points
10: no effect Damage: 0 points

Average damage/turn: 57 points

***Pointcost of "generic riptide": 200 points.--> 2 wounds on riptide = 80 points damage
I did not count pens or glances, but losses of HP for points damage (pens and glances threated the same way). Devilfish costs 80 points--> 2 HP stripped away = 53.3 points damage


So if you look at this small trial you see that the storm did some recognizable damage with an average of 57 points/turn. Consider the storm lasting for at least 3 turns (cronotek) imothek may make his points back just due to the storm. You also see how devastating the storm is against light vehicles due to S8.

Anyway, this test was just realized with one "trial army" and highly depends which army the opponent uses. I did not come up with another generic army...so why dont you guys help me out and post some generic ork/space marine army. I will then run the (handmade) tests for these ones, and we may make a better statistic about points damage per turn.

My -temporary- bottomline would be that imothek might be much more interesting than I thought before!
Edited by OhLongJohnson, Jul 25 2014, 09:20 PM.
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gravmyr
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Deathmark
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I've run Immy a couple times and he has done very well against plain SW. I destroyed two tanks and a troop in one turn... kinda insane. I just find it tedious to roll all the dice each turn.
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DeathGrantsWings
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Warrior
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Regarding using the Cryptek with chromotron, I'm no rules lawyer but I'd be a little leary of claiming the reroll on Lord of the Storm's D6 hits. Since the chromotron allows a reroll for "one of the units D6 rolls", I personally would consider the hits to be generated by the storm (or the ability itself) and not Imotekh. But then again, I prefer a more casual play style.

Excellent work with this post! I really like your insight as to how much his extra goodies could possibly cost if they were wargear.
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Unholyllama
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Lord
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DeathGrantsWings
Jul 26 2014, 06:43 AM
Regarding using the Cryptek with chromotron, I'm no rules lawyer but I'd be a little leary of claiming the reroll on Lord of the Storm's D6 hits. Since the chromotron allows a reroll for "one of the units D6 rolls", I personally would consider the hits to be generated by the storm (or the ability itself) and not Imotekh. But then again, I prefer a more casual play style.

Excellent work with this post! I really like your insight as to how much his extra goodies could possibly cost if they were wargear.
This is one of the rules that varies greatly from tournament to tournament. Ask your TO or opponent before relying on such.

It needs faq'ed since Imotekh needs to exist for the storm to happen but the storm itself can be argued to not be from the unit directly. It's confusing so agree with your opponent before the game.
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Secundum
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Phaeron
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tbh, I'd be very surprised if I found anyone who didn't allow the re-roll. I do it constantly (when I use Imotekh anyway), and I've never had any challenge on it,
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Unholyllama
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Lord
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Secundum
Jul 28 2014, 12:11 AM
tbh, I'd be very surprised if I found anyone who didn't allow the re-roll. I do it constantly (when I use Imotekh anyway), and I've never had any challenge on it,
People have challenged me on it...then turned around and said it triggers even while Imotekh is still in reserves.

Global effects like the storm just need to be FAQ'ed for clarity sake. Heck any ability and how it interacts with reserves need FAQ'ed.
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Vipoid
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Immortal
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Just something to be careful of - I often see people comparing SCs to standard characters with the same wargear. However, they often fail to mention how much of said wargear you'd actually want, and if there's any important wargear the character is lacking.

For example, the Stormlord's wargear includes:
1) Phaeron - Badly overpriced, and virtually useless since 6th edition.
2) Phylactery - an absolutely terrible piece of wargear, which does nothing almost 80% of the time.
3) Phase Shifter - has a useful effect, but is pretty overpriced and rarely worth taking (though certainly isn't as bad as the above).

Even if you do want the Phase Shifter, that's still 35pts of unwanted wargear from the Phaeron and Phylactery.

And, importantly, he can't have a Resurrection Orb or a Warscythe. So, that's his support potential down the drain, along with his combat ability.

I'm not saying he's unusable or anything - just that, when you start to look at his wargear selection, he starts to look like a much more dubious investment.
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Unholyllama
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Lord
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Vipoid
Jul 28 2014, 12:41 PM
Just something to be careful of - I often see people comparing SCs to standard characters with the same wargear. However, they often fail to mention how much of said wargear you'd actually want, and if there's any important wargear the character is lacking.

For example, the Stormlord's wargear includes:
1) Phaeron - Badly overpriced, and virtually useless since 6th edition.
2) Phylactery - an absolutely terrible piece of wargear, which does nothing almost 80% of the time.
3) Phase Shifter - has a useful effect, but is pretty overpriced and rarely worth taking (though certainly isn't as bad as the above).

Even if you do want the Phase Shifter, that's still 35pts of unwanted wargear from the Phaeron and Phylactery.

And, importantly, he can't have a Resurrection Orb or a Warscythe. So, that's his support potential down the drain, along with his combat ability.

I'm not saying he's unusable or anything - just that, when you start to look at his wargear selection, he starts to look like a much more dubious investment.
I appreciate my HQs having an invulnerable 3++ save and 45pts is so-so for it. Compared to other armies it's overpriced but other armies don't have RP either so /shrug.

That said - some of the things Vipoid mentioned are the reasons why I tend to not run Imotekh. Besides I hated how Night Fighting hurt Necrons in 6th (giving our enemy a cover save sucked) his general abilities were lack luster. He is great for stealing initiative (which is the sole reason many take him); however, his other abilities and wargear are meh.

He's equiped to be semi-closecombat with Phaeron and a Gauntlet of Fire (which I'd argue is the 2nd best CCW we have for our characters). Throw him into an ark with warriors and you can have some fun with that (it isn't the MOST effective but it tends to surprise people nonetheless).

The nanoscarabs are meh even if you run flayed ones.

The Storm is too unpredictable. 16% chance to hit anything isn't good enough to depend on in a game where you need some dependability.

So for me, the points are better spent with a cheaper special character (like Zahndrekh, Orikan, or Anrykar) than Imotekh.

Hopefully in the new book, he'll be buffed in some way to make him worth the point. Even if he's indirectly buffed (by having new units or abilities added to others that synergize with him more) would be good but as is, he isn't worth the 200+ pts he costs.
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OhLongJohnson
Cryptek
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I agree on the wargear-comparasion. However, its a standard procedure anyways...dont put to much importance into it.

As for orb: I dont take it all the time. The only thing that really hurts is the lack of a warscythe.

Pylactery actually is not that bad...its just inpredictable. It has a 1/9 chance of letting imothek get up again with 2 HP and a 1/9 chance of letting him get up again with 3 HP. (without orb). thus it has a 1/9 chance of saving 1/3 of a 225 point model and a 1/9 chance of saving 2/3 of a 225 point model. Sum it in points its 8.33 points + 16.66 = 25 points. This means, in average, it makes its points back.

You know...a lot of the stuff you buy is actually useless in a lot of situations. See for example a tactical squad with a melta. If that squad gets killed before getting in range, or if the melta misses all its shots, then the melta was "useless" with your definition.

About the storm. Yes it is impredictable and the chance is 16.66 PER ENEMY UNIT. Now, every opponent army has like 10 units, this means the chance to hit at least ONE enemy unit is actually: 1- (5/6*5/6*5/6*5/6...*5/6) = about 84%. Due to its S8, it might do some damage against pretty much every enemy unit.

However, it is hard to measure. Thats why I took into account the Tau army and I want to do that also with other armies. Until now, 57 points damage/turn is pretty neat and possibly more he would do hacking with a warscythe. We have to see the big picture here. And the big picture we can only see by playtesting it against different armies and keep count of what you kill.

About "the other abilities are useless": I think staff of the destroyer is pretty nice as I'm pretty shure you might shoot into CC with it. May be a good deathstar killer if used correctly.



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Unholyllama
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Lord
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OhLongJohnson
Jul 28 2014, 03:21 PM
About the storm. Yes it is impredictable and the chance is 16.66 PER ENEMY UNIT. Now, every opponent army has like 10 units, this means the chance to hit at least ONE enemy unit is actually: 1- (5/6*5/6*5/6*5/6...*5/6) = about 84%. Due to its S8, it might do some damage against pretty much every enemy unit.



I don't have time to check the math but this looks a bit like the Gambler's Falacy problem in statistics. Each instance has a separate 1:6 chance. While you are rolling more dice to increase the probability that it'll hit, each target still turns into a 1 in 6 chance. So even if the opponent has 12 units - statistically, you'd say 2 get hit; however, we have all had games where that doesn't happen. Sum of large numbers doesn't outweigh the probability of individual instances.

In addition, should the unit get hit, we're still looking at D6 S8 AP5 hits. So random number of hits that can be saved by over 60% of the units in the game.

Too much randomness for me.
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Olfgund
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Praetorian
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I agree with all of the above. But for me, Imothek's value is proportional / conditionnal to the size of the game.
I would bring the stormlord for one reason: the storm. While it is random (and therefore you can't choose what gets hit) but there is a certain reliability to it: 1 out of 6 units will (statistically) get hit each turn. Against low point army, it is likelly always inefficient. Above 1850 and lots of enemy units, it becomes devastating if the storm can be maintained 2 or 3 turns. In such big games, the fat (cost of phylactery and phaeron) becomes easier to accept.
Range /LOS is not a concern for that attack, something most of our other weapon lacks. Turn one casualties are also worst: a destroyed light transport forces a unit to march all the way towards your army; Generating 25% casualty could also mean a critical morale roll while a unit is still dangerously close to the table edge. Necron normally don't have weapon systems to do this unless playing long table edge deployment
For our opponent, counters would be putting things in reserve as much as possible to reduce its presence turn 1-2
Edited by Olfgund, Jul 28 2014, 04:26 PM.
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OhLongJohnson
Cryptek
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@Unholy Yeah...but WH40k is a game based on statistics pretty much. You have that problem with every single weapon/unit. You might just miss 4 meltas in a row, or you might fail 4 2+ saves in a row...all possible, all happened. Does that mean 2+ doesnt mean anything anymore? no. Because of statistics.
Btw there is a difference between average expectation (like you'd expect 2 hits on 12 targets) and the posibility to hit something. When I calculate 84 percent to hit AT LEAST ONCE it is like saying you have a 50% chance of passing a 4+ save (bases on the same maths). So when you accept the "50% chance to pass a 4+ save" you would also have to accept the calculation I did...

You saw the test I run. Twice I did not hit anything, and once the storm did a LOT of damage. Dont underestimate those S8 hits...might be saved by most opponent units, but dont get saved all the time (If you force 4 saves on a 2+ unit, the posibility that at least one gets failed is higher than the posibility that all get saved). Also S8 is devastating against light vehicles (chimeras, rhinos, ork trukks)

It is a lot of randomness (and I usually dont like randomness) but my first testrun did show that the storm help at "generally weaken" the opponents army.Dont see it as a "weapon" you shoot at "specific enemies", but see it as effect that weakens the opponents army. We kinda have to embrace the randomness.


Edit: Sniped ;)
Edited by OhLongJohnson, Jul 28 2014, 04:20 PM.
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Vipoid
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Immortal
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OhLongJohnson
Jul 28 2014, 03:21 PM
I agree on the wargear-comparasion. However, its a standard procedure anyways...dont put to much importance into it.

As for orb: I dont take it all the time. The only thing that really hurts is the lack of a warscythe.

Pylactery actually is not that bad...its just inpredictable. It has a 1/9 chance of letting imothek get up again with 2 HP and a 1/9 chance of letting him get up again with 3 HP. (without orb). thus it has a 1/9 chance of saving 1/3 of a 225 point model and a 1/9 chance of saving 2/3 of a 225 point model. Sum it in points its 8.33 points + 16.66 = 25 points. This means, in average, it makes its points back.

You know...a lot of the stuff you buy is actually useless in a lot of situations. See for example a tactical squad with a melta. If that squad gets killed before getting in range, or if the melta misses all its shots, then the melta was "useless" with your definition.

...

About "the other abilities are useless": I think staff of the destroyer is pretty nice as I'm pretty shure you might shoot into CC with it. May be a good deathstar killer if used correctly.



Sorry, but phylactery *is* bad. No question.

You're right, it's possible that you might not get to use other upgrades - e.g. meltaguns. Hence why most people are reluctant to spend too many points on squad upgrades.

However, there are key differences that make this an awful comparison:

1) Meltas are active, Phylactery is passive. If you have a melta, then you have a better gun that can actively contribute to the fight. phylactery adds nothing in this way.

2) Meltas give a squad additional options - it lets them threaten vehicles, and also gives them better odds against MCs. Phylactery gives an overlord nothing. He can't threaten a broader range of targets, nor does he gain other strategic options.

3) Meltas have good odds. Most units with meltas are hitting their target on 3s, after which they normally wounds on 2s (against infantry/MCs), or (when in melta range) penetrate even a land raider on average dice. These are good odds - it means that even a single melta in a squad is a reasonable threat to a vehicle. Now, lets compare this to a phylactery. We'll ignore for now the chance that a T5 2+/3+ model doesn't die at all, and assume that he does. Well, for starters, there's a 2/3 chance that he won't stand back up. But, it's ok, he has phylactery... oh... wait... it does absolutely nothing here. So, we're already at the point where it will be useless in 2/3 games - and even that is assuming he dies in every single game. These are not good odds. But then, there's yet another chance that the phylactery will do nothing - because there's a 1/3 chance that your lord will stand back up with only one wound anyway. So, we're now at 7/9 games where it's doing nothing. Also, your logic is flawed - the phylactery is not giving you back a percentage of your model's worth if he lets you regain multiple wounds. What matters is what you accomplish with those wounds, how many wounds you take in the remainder of the battle, and how many wounds you end up on at the end.

4) Meltas can be used multiple times. Phylactery comes down to one roll.


With regard to Staff of the Destroyer, I just struggle to think of many situations where it will be effective - save perhaps for a conga-line of terminators. ;)
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OhLongJohnson
Cryptek
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Long, irrevelant phylactery-part in the spoiler section. (of this post)

Spoiler: click to toggle


Anyways... this is not a discussion about phylactery and I made the point comparasion with same equipped overlord - as said- like part of a standard procedure. Dont concentrate to much on that part, the important part is the "special abilities" section.

As for the use of staff of destroyer: Conga-line of terminators would be a good use! *chuckles*...
I think it does not have to be a conga line...even if you just get 2-3 terminators under the line it should be worth it.
However, it really depends on if you are allowed to shoot into CC with it. In CC, as models are nicely piled in, you will likely get a lot of targets under that line.

Also it might be used to shoot at the rear armor of some vehicle (usuall AV10)...chances of getting a pen are 1/3 and AP1 helps a lot. (obviously,its not a warscythe)
Edited by OhLongJohnson, Jul 28 2014, 07:00 PM.
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Jaba San
Canoptek Scarab
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I run a skimmer amry with Imo, and the +1 that the night fighting adds to the 4+ jink save is a huge bonus that can effect the entire army. Given that most armies don't have skimmer heavy vehicle selections, the night fighting plus jink dosen't go both ways. Giving a 3+ cover save to an a list the highly leans on longevity of it's vehicles is reason enough to bring Imo to the party.

When you add in some of his more usefull abilities (Hyperlogic Strategy, 2+/3++, s4 ap5 flamer, reroll failed hits and wounds in cc, staff of the destroyer and being a pheron in a group of rapid firing warriors) I find no reason to not take him if the points allow it.

The way that I like to run him is to keep him in a Night Scythe with 10 warriors, a crono tek and a lord with a warscthye. drop the whole sguad on an objective and use Imo's saving throughs to keep the squad alive.
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Quinten87
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Imotek only really shines in massive games. In a 3000+ game lord of storm kills tons of enemy models. I often play grey knights and can not tell you how many times he has killed a vindicare assassin with his storm. I would never use him in anything lower than 2000 points. The night fighting ability allows you to tailor your army around the fact your going to be playing with night fight in effect - your opponent gets no such luxury. I think he is a character that you need to build your army around not one that can be thrown into any old list; people throw him in any old list and then say he is awful thus his bad rep.
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