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Kroot as allies & combinations; Kroots rule
Topic Started: Aug 14 2014, 11:28 PM (244 Views)
OhLongJohnson
Cryptek
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Hey there! Lately I'm keen of Tau-combinations (I think you've noticed)..i found another cool thing to do:

Get:
Etheral with positional relay
Etheral with positional relay
20 Kroot + 1-2 kroot hounds (eventually sniper rounds) one Etheral joined here
20 Kroot + 1-2 kroot hounds (eventually sniper rounds) one Etheral joined here
20 kroot + 1-2 kroot hounds
20 kroot + 1-2 kroot hounds

This would cost about 630 points. (about 670 with sniperrounds for 2 units)

Benefits:
- it opens you up 2 Tau-elite (Crisis or Riptide, I'm looking at you), 2 Tau-fast attack (piranhas, I'm looking at you), 2 Tau-Heavy support (broadsides, I'm looking at you)
- 90 bodies. Yes, they have crappy save, but doesnt matter
- 90 OUTFLANKING bodies if you want to. With acute senses! (kroot hounds)
- kroot might be the cheapest S4 AP5 fire you get
- kroot with sniper rounds might be the cheapest sniper you get
- 90 STUBBORN bodies with LD10 (with etherals, if you invoke "calm the tides")
- those stubborn kroot are excellent at tarpitting enemy deathstars/MCs
- Each kroot gets 3 Shots with S4 AP4 on 12'' (if you invoke "storm of fire")
- they ALL have objective secured...just flood objectives with a stubborn LD10 horde.
- if you buy sniperrounds, you have an effective weapon against MC (unit of 20 snipers? hell yeah)
- if you get the sniperrounds, they may choose between sniperrounds or pulse rounds
- they look cool.


Now: A very mean trick:
All kroot have the infiltration special rule, thus the outflanking special rule. With the kroot hounds they get acute senses.
Both etherals have a positional relay, this means if they are within 6'' of a table edge, all your outflanking units may choose to arrive from that table edge (even if it is your own or the opponents!)

The tactic goes like this (take comms relay to make it work):
- let all your kroot outflank
- T2: Roll for one of the etherals-units first. Then enter via the table edge you like. Make shure to have the etheral end within 6'' of the OPPONENTS table edge as well (just make a long line)
- let the rest of the kroot enter the table edge you wish. Note: ALL may choose to enter via the opponents table edge because of positional relay (that is BEHIND the opponent)
- Scream SURPRISE MOTHAF**KA!
- invoke "storm of fire" with your etherals. Have the kroot rain a bulk of fire upon the opponent. (that is -within 12''- 3 shots S4 AP5 each Kroot)
- see how the opponent loses important parts of his army to this alpha-strike and then struggles to take a choice: Attack the kroot behind him? Attack the necrons infront of him??


What do you think?
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alaric ironaxe
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Wow that sounds mean. Even without the special outflanking trick you're adding tons of bodies with s4 guns not to mention stubborn LD10 which is pretty good, then with the outflank you'e just got the pain of them all showing up on one side of the table. Heavy blast armies won't be fun though.

I'd say if you happen to have 90 kroot I'd go for that. Besides just being pretty good it's a fairly unusual combination that would be fun to use.
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Unholyllama
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Yeap - outflanking sniper kroot (with buff commanders) is what makes lists like the Farsight Bomb and (in 6th) Tau-dar work so well.

The only thing is that in competitive play, I don't know any tau player that runs Ethereals since they give up extra victory points when they die (and EVERY book mission has victory points). This makes them a very appealing, squishy target that can be pretty easily sniped out.
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OhLongJohnson
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Unholyllama
Aug 15 2014, 04:58 PM
Yeap - outflanking sniper kroot (with buff commanders) is what makes lists like the Farsight Bomb and (in 6th) Tau-dar work so well.

The only thing is that in competitive play, I don't know any tau player that runs Ethereals since they give up extra victory points when they die (and EVERY book mission has victory points). This makes them a very appealing, squishy target that can be pretty easily sniped out.
The Etheral VP-thing is actually a problem.. I know about that. I'm still trying to figure out whats better: Enormous alpha strike due to Etheral or more reliable unit that doesnt give as many VP due to commander (also more expensive!)

Thats why I usually would outflank. It gives you the opportunity to have the alphastrike.
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Unholyllama
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One thing I don't get 100% on the original post though...

are you looking for making a Tau primary force or looking for how to add Tau to benefit Necrons. If it's Tau allies for Necrons, I would say you're focusing on the wrong area as shooty troops are pretty solid with Necrons.
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OhLongJohnson
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Unholyllama
Aug 15 2014, 07:31 PM
One thing I don't get 100% on the original post though...

are you looking for making a Tau primary force or looking for how to add Tau to benefit Necrons. If it's Tau allies for Necrons, I would say you're focusing on the wrong area as shooty troops are pretty solid with Necrons.
I'm looking for Tau as allies...

While it is true that we have good shooty weapons, kroot are cheaper S4 AP5 weapons....also we dont have nice troops to tarpit enemy units, while Kroot (with Stubborn) are incredibly good at tarpitting MCs and enemy deathstars.

Also the whole combination opens us (for a relatively small point cost) 2 Tau elite, Fast attack and HS slots...these can be really good to help with long range shooting!
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alaric ironaxe
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Didn't know about that etheral rule, that takes away from the build but still worth a try I think.

I don't think tau are bad allies for Tau since they can add lots of long range shooting which we lack, plus Tau are a good match up for most armies but I do agree an army with more assault potential might make better allies, but if Tau work for you I'd certainly stick to them. I for one just try to stay away from allies when I can.
Edited by alaric ironaxe, Aug 15 2014, 07:54 PM.
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OhLongJohnson
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alaric ironaxe
Aug 15 2014, 07:53 PM
Didn't know about that etheral rule, that takes away from the build but still worth a try I think.

I don't think tau are bad allies for Tau since they can add lots of long range shooting which we lack, plus Tau are a good match up for most armies but I do agree an army with more assault potential might make better allies, but if Tau work for you I'd certainly stick to them. I for one just try to stay away from allies when I can.
I dont know...I usually tend to build my army around one purpose. I dont usually mix CC-heavy armies with shooty armies...
So I think with Tau it is perfectly possible to make armylists that are SO strong in shooting that you dont even need CC-heavy units. You just need something to tarpid units you cant handle (therefore the kroot)
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Unholyllama
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For the same points (maybe lower even) as that shown in the original post, I'd rather take a Tau Fire Support Cadre Formation. Better range and strong firepower. Kroot CAN tarpit; however, Kroot are only stubborn when within range of the Ethereal which is a huge liability in games. In addition, Stubborn with LD7 is not that good and if you have your Ethereal joined to them (LD10) then you are putting a lot of hope into not breaking. Kroot are far weaker than Necron Warriors in both strength, toughness, and save - actually they are weaker than Ork boyz and cost the same per model (Kroot do shoot better than boyz though).

All in all - Allies for me would be focusing on trying to strengthen the army's punch or plugging a weakness. For me, Necrons have a weakness when it comes to range and low AP shooting. Kroot, even with sniper rounds, CAN be useful for outflanking and grabbing objectives and sneaking behind the enemy. Tarpitting is possible with the Ethereal but it's a gamble (especially running 2 Ethereals for 2 extra VPs) but may not be worth the points to delay 1 or 2 units a couple player turns from breaking through.
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OhLongJohnson
Cryptek
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Unholyllama
Aug 15 2014, 08:28 PM
For the same points (maybe lower even) as that shown in the original post, I'd rather take a Tau Fire Support Cadre Formation. Better range and strong firepower. Kroot CAN tarpit; however, Kroot are only stubborn when within range of the Ethereal which is a huge liability in games. In addition, Stubborn with LD7 is not that good and if you have your Ethereal joined to them (LD10) then you are putting a lot of hope into not breaking. Kroot are far weaker than Necron Warriors in both strength, toughness, and save - actually they are weaker than Ork boyz and cost the same per model (Kroot do shoot better than boyz though).

All in all - Allies for me would be focusing on trying to strengthen the army's punch or plugging a weakness. For me, Necrons have a weakness when it comes to range and low AP shooting. Kroot, even with sniper rounds, CAN be useful for outflanking and grabbing objectives and sneaking behind the enemy. Tarpitting is possible with the Ethereal but it's a gamble (especially running 2 Ethereals for 2 extra VPs) but may not be worth the points to delay 1 or 2 units a couple player turns from breaking through.
Dont forget that units within 12'' of the etheral do have LD10. All of them. Stubborn with LD10 is pretty good.
While it is true that they still may get unlucky in CC and break, they are accompanied by kroot hounds. That means I5 for sweeping advances (its probable they wont get swept)

It is true, that in a game it sometimes is hard to have the kroot within 12'' of the etheral, however with unit sizes THAT big it should always be possible to "leave a tail" so that at least 1 kroot of an unit is within 12'' of the etheral.

When I'm talking about tarpitting I would mean to tarpit things with few high-strength attacks. Such as MC...it should quite easily be possible to tarpit them for 2-3 gameturns (and rescue the rest of your units)


As for the Kroot-warrior comparasion: Warriors are way harder to kill...however, if you JUST look at the S4 AP5 shots, you get doble the shots for the same price while using kroot (with worse BS...still more wounds in average). Kroot are also more mobile if you use outflank...

The way I put it, I would also not use the etherals unit itself to tarpit, but rather the units without etheral, while the etherals unit stands behind to give it stubborn and LD10...once you see the kroot might brake (or get whiped out) you should try to evacuate your etheral.


However, until now its just a theoretical concept where I think the benefits will be greater than the issues you have due to the etherals....game experience is the only thing that can tell us if this is true and if the alphastrike you get that way is worth the pain...
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alaric ironaxe
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OhLongJohnson
Aug 15 2014, 08:14 PM
alaric ironaxe
Aug 15 2014, 07:53 PM
Didn't know about that etheral rule, that takes away from the build but still worth a try I think.

I don't think tau are bad allies for Tau since they can add lots of long range shooting which we lack, plus Tau are a good match up for most armies but I do agree an army with more assault potential might make better allies, but if Tau work for you I'd certainly stick to them. I for one just try to stay away from allies when I can.
I dont know...I usually tend to build my army around one purpose. I dont usually mix CC-heavy armies with shooty armies...
So I think with Tau it is perfectly possible to make armylists that are SO strong in shooting that you dont even need CC-heavy units. You just need something to tarpid units you cant handle (therefore the kroot)
I don't usually either because I rarely use allies, but I usually like to have a CC unit or two to deal with potential threats. I will say though Tau do fill a hole in our shooting for us-long range, good AP weapons.

Kroot can tarpit but as unholyllama mentioned I might be worried about losing the etherals/not being in range. Certainly can't rely on LD7. I think it's worth a try though given just the amount of s4 ap5 shot you are adding on units that can outflank.
Edited by alaric ironaxe, Aug 15 2014, 09:11 PM.
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OhLongJohnson
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Quote:
 
Kroot can tarpit but as unholyllama mentioned I might be worried about losing the etherals/not being in range. Certainly can't rely on LD7. I


Idea is, that they get LD10 nearly all the time. The kroot units joined by the etheral do directly get it, and the kroot units with at least ONE Model within 12'' around the etheral also get LD10 (etheral rule)

Yeah, the idea is basically to get a LOT of S4 AP5 fire and just swarm the opponent...however, it is true that I struggle a bit to build a necron list around it...

Maybe the best thing would be to just use 1 etheral and 2 units of kroot (instead of 2 etheral and 4 units of kroot)
Another option would be 1 etheral, 1 commander and 3 units of kroot...(one of the units joined by the commander)


The whole thing is so uncommon that it really gets hard to estimate if it works...because Unholy does have a point saying that basic firewarriors are pretty good (they ARE very good)....its just so...funny with kroot :D
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Unholyllama
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OhLongJohnson
Aug 15 2014, 10:31 PM
The whole thing is so uncommon that it really gets hard to estimate if it works...because Unholy does have a point saying that basic firewarriors are pretty good (they ARE very good)....its just so...funny with kroot :D
Actually - my reference to Warriors were Necron Warriors; not Fire Warriors. Fire Warriors, in my opinion, would be a worse troop option for allying in Tau than Kroot.

One other thing to keep in mind with tarpitting - at the end of combat, all models in the units that are locked in combat do an End of Phase pile in move towards each other. So if the unit is locked in combat, they get the 3" pile in at their initiative step and another 3" at the end of the fight sub-phase. This is repeated again during each assault phase so it is quite possible that you would move your furthest model from the fight a full 12" just in pile in moves between 2 player turn's worth of assault phases.

That situation would be rare; however, does illustrate how difficult it is to keep units engaged in close combat "just within range" of some area of affect. Pile In movements can be a great way to pull enemies off of objectives too :-).
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OhLongJohnson
Cryptek
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I dont know, I think firewarriors are pretty darn awesome for their points...i mean yes, they have T3...but then they also have a 30'' S5 AP5 weapon...wooot

The pile in-thing is true...it is really hard to mesure the effects of it...althought 6'' really is worst case szenario!

Still, I would try to run the Kroot together as close as possible (when not using them for tarpitting) and just unleash that 80 model S4 AP5 fire (In a best case szenario 240 shots...however this will hardly ever happen) over some place on the battlefield (thing you cant do as easily with necron warriors), where the opponents defence is weak. (with outflanking & acute senses, possibly with etheral & positional relay at a table edge you pretty much choose where to arrive)

This is the main idea...the idea of a precise alphastrike...the tarpitting idea is kinda plan B. (but still nice to have)
Also you can TOTALLY ruin the day of a droppod and deepstrike-heavy army, when you just spam the whole battlefield with models. (imagine...80 kroot with several hounds...each carefully keeping a 2'' distance to the next model....bubblewrap everything you have :D

As said..there are just SO MANY effects to take into account...cover? opponent? Etheral-VP? Is the alphastrike really that strong?...so best thing would be to just try it out..at least I am fairly certain it should be a lot of fun to play :D
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