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| The warrior assault unit; why not try something different? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Sep 5 2014, 12:37 AM (429 Views) | |
| OhLongJohnson | Sep 5 2014, 12:37 AM Post #1 |
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Cryptek
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Hey there! There is an idea spinning around in my head...it sounds pretty cool so I'll share it: The way I want to use it it is planned in a dual-pack, because you'll need 2 O-lords. Get: OL with Phaeron, weave, MSS, Orb, scythe Necron lord with weave, scythe Necron lord with weave, scythe 7 necron warriors 1 Ghost ark. (thats about 500 points.) Idea: - The ghost ark is open topped and thus an assault vehicle. this means charging after disembarking (Giving you about 19'' charge range from the Ghost ark) - Phaerons relentless means double tap with the warriors before the charge - The O-lord with the 2 lords will give you 10 scythe attacks on charge (and you should get the first charge) - the warriors are threatened as additional wounds for the lords. this means: Keep allocating wounds to them via "look out sir!" (at least every wound with ap2). Threat them as disposable...they will get repaired anyways! (even the normal lords pass LoS on a 4+, giving them basically a 4++ invul) - the Ghost ark hangs around to keep repairing warriors. If something you cant handle gets close, you may always embark back on the Ghost ark and use its speed to get away. - the unit (and the ghost ark) have objective secured! - it has enough punch to handle pretty much everything thats not a mega-deathstar. It chews throught vehicles. I plan to run two of them, together with 3 units of wraiths and 3 ABs. The idea is: Everything towards the opponent. Against certain targets (Mephiston, Wraithknights, Imperial knights) you may use the absolutely deadly combo of charging the unit with both a wraith and an O-lord unit....the target will get reduced to I1 and face 10 warscythe attacks+ wraith attacks before even beeing able to hit back.(bye-bye-imperial knight) Finally, I'm not shure if the most competitive thing ever...but it definitely sounds like a lot of fun to use! |
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| Unholyllama | Sep 5 2014, 01:53 AM Post #2 |
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Lord
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The largest disadvantage to any Necron unit in melee is our I2. It almost guarentees that everyone else gets a crack at us first. Thus makes quality hits a near must - rerolls and AP values. The idea, as a whole isn't bad. I agree not the most competitive but I would say it'd be unexpected and pretty fun. Warriors are resilient and with a ghost ark close by, it gets stupid quickly. If your other Overlord was Zhandrekh, you wouldn't have relentless, but could gain furious charge, hit and run, or counter-attack while still managing a double court. If you wanted only a single unit of the above mentioned squad, I would bed tempted to run Szeras in place of the 2nd lord. While random, all 3 buffs from Szeras can be amusing in a unit like you describe. The only thing I don't like about the idea is how overpriced Lords are now adays. Most sergeants are ~10pts more than the troop they attach to. Starting at 35pts, that is almost 3 times the price before upgrades. My PowerKlaw, Bosspole, Nob in 'eavy armor in a Boyz squad is 10pts less than what you outlined. While no EL nor a 2+ save, it has 2W and a lot more attacks. This is making me think lords and Crypteks are going to change pretty significantly. |
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| Olfgund | Sep 5 2014, 01:21 PM Post #3 |
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Praetorian
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The other power option is to replace the 2 lords (and required overlord to attach the second lord) with a SW/WS destroyer lord: 1 less attack (-2 in initial charge however) but PE and one more wound for a lot cheaper considering the economy vs required 2nd overlord. Could even give him a MSS and stay within budget. Prefered enemy and warscythe because it's quite frustrating to hit with that weapon and roll a 1 on wounding attempt strategic side effet: the destroyer lord can split from the unit and attack on his own a specific target, with his full T6, not majority T4 : situational of course (dangerous based on how many AP2 enemy weapons is out there) but it's possible if needed Edited by Olfgund, Sep 5 2014, 02:28 PM.
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| Unholyllama | Sep 5 2014, 02:13 PM Post #4 |
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Lord
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Per transport rules in 7th, Jump and Jetpack infantry cannot be embarked on transports unless the transport entry explicitly states. Since the Ghost Ark doesn't give explicit permissions in it's ruleset (unlike the Night Scythe) the D. Lord will have to hop along side. |
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| Olfgund | Sep 5 2014, 02:27 PM Post #5 |
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Praetorian
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My mistake, and it gets worse: I just checked the GA transport capacity and it explicitely list what can be embarked. The special characters HQ can, but not the destroyer lord. I though every HQ could. |
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| OhLongJohnson | Sep 5 2014, 03:15 PM Post #6 |
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Cryptek
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yep, thats why I didnt put a destroyer lord (i would have put one otherwise). The whole idea is to keep things fast by using the GAs open topped. It really makes a difference to get into CC by turn 2 or by turn 3/4...also the GA has the nice gimmick of repairing warriors, which comes in handy if you spend the whole game in CC. As for Zahndrekh: I have thought about it...but the problem is that he doesnt have a warscythe, and you really need that warscythe attacks (to not lose CC).... its like you said often unholy: AP values win you assaults, so I really see the warriors as nothing more than extra wounds...just keep LoS...LoS...LoS....with pretty much every wound. The response of 10 warscythe attacks (on charge) should make shure you dont lose the assault. I'm not so shure a response with just 6 warscythe attacks would manage that. I agree the lords are expensive...but in the end you get S5 T5 2 attacks with S7 AP1 (armorbane) with a 2+ save, can LoS and can get up again on a 4+.... 2 lords with that equip are about as expensive as an Overlord with the same equip. Overlord has more wounds (3 instead of 2), but lords have more attacks (4 instead of 3 normally, 6 instead of 4 on the charge), so I think it gets mitigated pretty well (you pay more punch with less duarability). LoS: Tactic-wise I would either LoS everything, or LoS everything AP-, AP6, AP5 and AP 2. Everything AP4 or AP3 would then take on the lords (usually the overlord) because the warriors will die like flies to it. |
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| Oberron | Sep 8 2014, 12:09 AM Post #7 |
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Destroyer
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why not zhandrek and obyron togeather then? That way the i2 helps out quite handedly for obyron giving him extra attacks for each miss on him or if you don't mind missing the GA very much run Anrakyr the traverller and obyron in a unit of immortals with two lords (each lord from a different RC from obyron and anrakyr).With this you have 3 extra wounds with 3+ armor down side is can't be repaired via Ghost ark, but you get 14 Warscythe STR 8! attacks on the charge and 14 warscythe str 7 attacks while being charged. and a big BUT is that you have to run the tesla and not the gauss for this to work if you want to use them during the shooting phase as well. And i just wanna give a shout out to Illuminor Szeras, he upgrades a unit of warriors or immortals with a random roll of T5(good for majority toughness) BS5 (while not as useful as the other two still solid for pre-charge shooting phase), or S5 (gives your warriors/immortals a harder bight and possiable more wounds). Plus defensive grenades that remove an on-comming charge's +1 attacks or could make an enemy unit blind making them all WS 1 bs 1 until the end of their next turn (but its an initiative test sooooo yeah only 1/3 of a chance vs I4 1/2 vs I3 2/3 vs necrons[I2]) |
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| Unholyllama | Sep 8 2014, 02:30 PM Post #8 |
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Lord
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Here's my take on the warrior assault unit if I was only making 1 such unit in an army. Trazyn Lord (Gauntlet of Fire or Sword) 8 Warriors Ghost Ark Why? - Trazyn is Phaeron - Trazyn has a MSS to address larger threats. - Trazyn has Empathic Obliterator (let's be honest, this unit shouldn't be going after deathstarts - just deck chair units camping objectives) - Ghost Ark is an assault vehicle - Lord with Gauntlet is a good counter charge piece and useful in h2h. Alternatively, Sword is AP3 (ensuring wounds in many cases) Szeras would be a nice boost but unnecessary. I enjoy running him from time to time but aside from his combat drug-like ability, he is pretty much just a destruc-tek w/o pulse. Obyron would add mobility; however, Obyron's countering ability only is relevant within challenges. And the units that grant an awesome number of attacks tend to also wield AP2. Anrakyr is tempting for his buffs for a unit of immortals; however, would only be interested in using such with Tesla - preventing the AP4 goodness from Gauss within rapid fire range. |
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| OhLongJohnson | Sep 8 2014, 02:37 PM Post #9 |
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Cryptek
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@ Oberron: Problem with Obyron in a unit is, that we dont know if cleaving counterblow works...because nobody is actually targetting HIM, but the UNIT....(in challenges its different thought). While I agree that the Zahndrekh&Obyron combo is cool, at some point it just gets very expensive. It is always possible to make a unit more-deathstar, but the thing is to find the sweet spot between cost and efficiency. Zahndrekh adds something to the unit, thats true, but is furious charge/Counterattack worth the price you pay for him? (And that you lose MSS and scythe???) Same for Szeras, while I like Szeras for beeing a gimmick-unit, he gets away poorly in my calculations of price efficiency. In everything but huge warrior blops, his upgrades are just too expensive...and he also blocks a HQ slot without opening a court! Lets say you get Szeras to upgrade 7 warriors like in this case: Szeras has eldritch lance and gaze of flame, ok, thats about 50 points. That means you pay 50 points for the upgrades...for 7 warriors, this is 7 points/warrior. That is way too much for +1S, +1BS or +1T!
Sadly, Obyron doesnt open up a court! I also thought about using anrakyr...but footslogging is just too much of a downside for me. (and the immortals cant get repaired). I like to crush enemy lines with all at once (instead of waves), so I prefer everything to have the same speed. (fast! :D) Also its always nice to have Ghost Arks to bunny away in and to contest objectives. Another problem with anrakyr is that he doesnt have an orb(you want an orb in there), however you may give an orb to one of the lords. |
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| Oberron | Sep 8 2014, 11:33 PM Post #10 |
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Destroyer
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It doesn't say in obyron's rules that he has to be the target, just that he is being attacked. "When enemies attempt to strike Obyron in close combat, keep track of the number of Attacks that hit before Obyron makes his own attacks. For each miss, Obyron makes a bonus Attack (up yo a maximum of 6 bonus Attacks) when it is his turn to strike. Enemy misses that occur after Obyron has attacked do not generate bonus Attack. Any bonus Attacks not used by the end of the Assault phase are lost." Attacks are made on the unit correct but if Obyron is part of the unit he is also being attacked. An example of it saying him and not the unit we look at lukas the trickster for a similar rule "All successful to hit rolls specifically allocated against Lukas (not against the squad he is with) must be re-rolled." pg52 spacewolves codex 5th. Reason why i used the 5thedition codex is because it is written in the same manor as the necron codex to show precedence. I wasn't really thinking points cost just tossing out ideas. Also Szeras doesn't have to be in the unit that he gave upgrades to i was just pointing out if he was in it he gives them D. grenades. I'd rather stick Szeras in a tank hunting group where he will do more good imo. His biggest use is the T5 making the unit harder to kill and can't ID from str 8 anymore since you use majority toughness for wounds it doesn't matter that the overlords have t5 if the majority is t4 from warriors. I did derp on obyon opening up a court i keep forgetting he is just a cryptek and not an overlord. the way i see it is if you wanna make an assault warrior unit you are going to give up something to make it baseline decent either shooting, speed, numbers, quality of attacks, or quanity of attacks. that is why wraiths are such a fanfavoriate because that give up pretty much nothing to be good. |
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| OhLongJohnson | Sep 9 2014, 09:21 PM Post #11 |
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Cryptek
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do you have any FAQs backing up that it also works if Lukas is within a unit? It would be pretty great, because I admit its quite similiar...and Obyron would get SUCH a huge boost if it worked that way...just have him sit behind and toss out 10 attacks/phase.
You derped again haha as obyron is not a cryptek but a varguard...some kind of Overlord-Bodyguard. (He also doesnt have a Cryptek statline, but a overlord statline despite not beeing an overlord) As for Szeras: As said, I like the fluff around him but 7 points/warrior for an upgrade of +1S,+1BS or +1T seems waaaay to much! And to make good use of the grenades you would have to stick him into some unit that expects CC...which is not always great because he sucks in it!
Trazyn is an IC i also thought about...sadly Trazyn as second overlord is a gamble (as he might reemplace the expensive not-named Overlord). Only problems with Trazyn are lack of 2+ save and lack of orb. Nevertheless, are you shure you wouldnt invest 5 points more to give the lord a warscythe? This would give the unit some effective can-opener (which it doesnt have as trazyn doesnt have a scythe) and thus allow it to also crush vehicles that camp in the backfield.
Its true, competing with wraiths is very difficult (because its one of the best units in the codex). Against targets with 3+ or 2+ save the unit I proposed should do more damage in 1 phase of CC (assuming you have small losses), but there is just so much thats hard to take into account (Initiative steps and such).... However, it is always great to search for alternatives, because of several reasons: - You NEED to fill the HQ slots (at least one of em), wraiths dont fill them - you need some Objective secured, wraiths dont offer that - you may only use 3 units of wraiths in an one-Foc-army. |
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| Carnotek | Sep 10 2014, 12:42 AM Post #12 |
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Flayed One
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do lightning fields work when we charge or only when the unit is charged into, maybe o/lord 2 x crypteks with lighting field and some warriors, disembark rapid fire and charge ? |
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| OhLongJohnson | Sep 10 2014, 12:57 AM Post #13 |
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Cryptek
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this would be so amazing if lightning field worked after charging, however as far as I know it does sadly only work if you get charged! The wording is not totally clear " if an enemy unit succesfully moves into assault with the Cryptek and his unit"...one might argue that if YOU charge THEM then they also move succesfully into assault with the Cryptek...I really dont know! |
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| Oberron | Sep 10 2014, 05:19 AM Post #14 |
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Destroyer
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What do you mean also works if lukas is within a unit? Lukas' "All successful to hit rolls specifically allocated against Lukas (not against the squad he is with) must be re-rolled." Flat out says not against the squad he is with Obyron does not have that stipulation, just that he is being attacked (and it doesn't say specifically allocated at him either), if he is in a unit that is being assaulted he is being attacked.
Varguard is his title. He clearly isn't an overlord either as he isn't listed as one, its possible he is a "regular" lord type. I remember reading somewhere where he was called a cryptek but i can't find it currently and it really isn't an important matter to so to that much trouble.
It makes it an even bigger buffer to wound for the main powerhouses in the unit. And they won't always be able to get into assault before getting shot at t5 gives him very hardy resistance vs shooting as well, the BS is alright for shooting before assault to try and make more hits stick, and S5 gives the warriors more of a change to wound as well since they don't have any ap they need to cause as many wounds as possiable. It only sucks that it is a gamble on what you get. He may not be offensively a powerhouse but he still has 4 attacks base (5 on charge), a 3+ save to help out where it is needed and 2 more wounds to protect the real powerhouses in the squad. Saying he sucks in a unit that expects to be in assault can be said for the warriors easily, twice the wounds with better save and 4 attacks (opposed to the warrior's 1!) makes him a solid switch for a warrior since he in effect is two warriors wound wise and 4 more warriors attack wise(2.5 warriors on the charge). Plus his eldritch lance is almost a free wound on w/e unit you are attacking with S8 ap2. Don't look at him for not being a powerhouse in melee if you are you might as well throw out warriors all togeather for that idea. At worst case senario he is as good as 4 warriors in combat.
-Warriors don't fill HQ slots either...... but Destroyer Lord do, which are great with wraiths. - That is(was) night scythes with warriors in them are for(where for). You also don't NEED Objective secured in an army, and the places where you do you don't need to make them a CC unit you use them as a final snatch and grab from the opponent(if going 2nd) that doesn't need to be in cc, or if going first, you sit on it with cover fire and either try to block any possiable threat of wipeing them out with a preemptive strike with your own CC to tie them up or just hold on for the ride. -Unbound is a thing and disregarding that you can have as many detachments as you want And haveing more MSU on the board is not a bad thing with 7th.[/quote] Edited by Oberron, Sep 10 2014, 05:20 AM.
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| Unholyllama | Sep 10 2014, 06:24 AM Post #15 |
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Lord
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Obyron only gets bonus attacks if he is a single model or in a challenge. You cannot allocate HITs to a unit and old rules that cite hits (or misses in this case) to an individual model are restricted to those scenarios. You roll to hit against an entire unit, not an individual model within that unit. Same goes for things like the DE clone field which negates hits against the bearer - since it's hits and not wounds, only in challenges or when alone. |
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| OhLongJohnson | Sep 10 2014, 10:49 PM Post #16 |
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Cryptek
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@oberron: short version of what I wrote ( i derped and deleted everything I wrote ...again -.-) Szeras: I derped, I thought he only had 2 attacks...but still 4 attacks with WS4 S4 is not terribly scary (as much as an ork boy on charge). I know the warriors suck in CC, but thats not the point. I dont expect them to do any damage, I threat them as one thing only: Regenerable extra wounds. The idea is to use the warriors because they: 1:give objektive secured, 2: give you the possibility to take the assault vehicle (very important) 3: are regenerable (ghost ark) extra wounds, 4:May doubletap before the charge. 5:fill a troop slot (also important) I repeat, I DONT use them because I expect them to do any damage in CC...thats the job of the lords. But yeah, maybe Szeras is usuable..I just hate the gamble around it. BS5 does give you SOME profit, but not a lot...(definitly not worth 7 points/warrior)...the only upgrade that might be worth 7points a warrior is the T5 upgrade...which you get every 3rd game. Also: true that warriors dont fill up HQ slots, but the whole combination fills up an HQ slot AND a troop slot, which wraiths dont do. Obviously, if you decide to go unbound it doesnt matter. But I dont consider that as none of my friends wants to play (unrestricted) unbound. If you go unbound you can just go 45 wraiths and call it a day.(should work, but kinda lame) (I do NOT Try to compete with wraiths here...I posted the list I would use with that combination, and it includes 3 units of wraiths!!!!) As for objective secured: Maybe not totally necesary, but REALLY nice for lategame contesting (you wont always table your opponent) As for Obyron: I dont know, GW writes the rules in such a stupid way. If your friends are ok with Obyron getting extra attacks from misses against his unit, I would DEFINITELY include him in that warrior-assault unit. 9-10 warscythe hits with WS5 is nothing to laugh about!!!!I hope this rule remains in the new dex (and gets clarified),because its kinda fluffy. |
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| Oberron | Sep 11 2014, 04:48 AM Post #17 |
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Destroyer
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precise shots can allocate hits to specific models in a unit but that doesn't matter in this case. I've already provided proof that the "hits" do not have to target obyron. Obyron is part of the unit, the unit is being attacked, therefore Obyron is being attacked. The wording from his rule is not the same as lukas the trickster which does specify that it doesn't work on his unit and has to secificly TARGET him. Obyron's rule does not say anything about hits allocated to him, just to count the misses. Is obyron being attacked during the assault phase if he is in a unit that is assaulting or being assaulted? Also as a side note of obyron is he able to use it if Zahndrekh is in another unit and not by himself? |
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