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| Wraithknight | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Sep 10 2014, 04:20 PM (696 Views) | |
| Banshee | Sep 10 2014, 04:20 PM Post #1 |
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Lychguard
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Is there any reliable way to counter IT, without making your roster specialized for this only matter? Only thing i can think about is 10 man deathmark squad. And i'm still not sure it will work...
Edited by Banshee, Sep 10 2014, 04:21 PM.
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| Unholyllama | Sep 10 2014, 05:06 PM Post #2 |
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Lord
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"Reliable" - as in a hard counter for it - not really. At least not in the Necron codex. Now there are some things we can do to try and deal with it though. Death & Despair squads - Get into rapid fire/template range and mark it. Pull the trigger and prey for enough AP2 wounds. Night Scythes (and Annihilation Barges) - Even with Scatter Lasers, Wraith Knights aren't the most reliable against flyers. Just make sure to jink and hope to unload a lot of good S7 shots onto it (which sadly wound on a 5+). Wraithwing - Wraiths with Whip Coils supported by a Destroyer Lord with MSS & WarScythe - Corner the WraithKnight, tie him up with coils and the MSS, and then hope for a lot of 6's on the attacks (since all wounds from the wraiths will trigger rending). Beamer Spam - (Don't do this) - Wraiths with Transdimensional Beamers, support by a Triarch Stalker to TL the (snap) shots. Not recommended due to cost and improbability of it (6's to hit if you move, then Wraithknight has to roll a 6 to fail the test). |
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| Olfgund | Sep 10 2014, 05:32 PM Post #3 |
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Praetorian
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As for riptide and such, we can always ask ourselves if it is really needed to kill it to achieve victory. It is a huge point investment in an eldar list, leaving less points for the other support, easier-kill points /scoring units. Any unit with rending can help with AP2 auto wounds on 6s. That means fast-moving wraiths but I would try to soften him a bit in firing phases before getting in CC with that thing. S7 flood-of-fire tesla destructors can help But yes, deathmarks would be best here IMO because of rending and the 2+ wounding without having to go in CC. And the good thing is that those units are my mainstream units, so I can’t be accused of tailoring or specializing. Can’t remember doing a list without a least one AB, wraiths are the ever-popular and I love to use deathmarks in about half my lists. |
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| Unholyllama | Sep 10 2014, 05:38 PM Post #4 |
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Lord
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Olfgund has a good point on "is it worth killing it?". Short of the Wraithknight charging or upgrading to Suncannons, there is a limited number of wounds he'll be able to dish out. He's not ObjSec so in a way, his largest weakness is standard troops like warriors who can tarpit him despite not being able to hurt him. Only if Necrons could get Stubborn :-D. WraithKnights excel at the destruction of vehicles. This sucks for Necrons since we tend to be a Vehicle Heavy force (and 7th is turning into a vehicle heavy edition again). However, if you can focus on the rest of the army and leave that alone, then you'll be in good shape. |
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| Banshee | Sep 10 2014, 06:14 PM Post #5 |
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Lychguard
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I'm plannig on using Acanthrites over Wraiths, and in this scenario they are worse, because they still will get instakilled, but there are no invul and initiative lowering. I'm planning on using 2 AB and 2 NS, so yes this could help abit. The thing is that we are going to play 3-player carnage, so everybody starts close enough for this THING to just destroy units in CC from turn 2 if not 1. I'm not sure, that i will be able to effectivly tarpit it... So deathmarks with despairtek... So how many deathmarks still? Full 10 for geting maximum wounds? |
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| Olfgund | Sep 10 2014, 06:36 PM Post #6 |
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Praetorian
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I did the math rapidly vs the 3+ wraithknight: having marked it as their target, the 10 deathmarks in rapid fire range do on average 5,2 unsaved wounds (including 2,2 rending wounds) add one wound from the despairtek's template if you're in range and that's it plus side: if the deathmarks get charged, overwatch could give more wounds/rending wound, even more so if you have the despairtek with its AP1 template |
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| Banshee | Sep 10 2014, 06:48 PM Post #7 |
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Lychguard
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Actually, i can use counter attack from Zahndrekh, so besides overwatch, this thing will get 2 attacks with 2+ wounding from each deathmark, that will live through IT's attack. Also i can take a veil of darkness to make squad mobile after killing marked unit...
Edited by Banshee, Sep 10 2014, 06:49 PM.
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| Olfgund | Sep 10 2014, 07:37 PM Post #8 |
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Praetorian
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And pointing the obvious:2 units of 5 deathmarks is most probably better than one unit of 10 because they can mark two targets and it's easier to maneuver them around to get all 10 models into rapid fire range |
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| Unholyllama | Sep 10 2014, 07:57 PM Post #9 |
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Lord
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If you want 1 little extra something, add a Destroyer Lord with your Deathmarks. 3+ to hit (reroll 1s), 2+ rerollable to wound. Fun times and helps ensure something dies but it's a hefty tax for the little extra umph PE gives. |
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| OhLongJohnson | Sep 10 2014, 11:03 PM Post #10 |
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Cryptek
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Against a 3+ wraithknight, lords/crypteks with regular staff of light joined units of deathmarks should do a lot of damage. 2 Units of 5 deathmarks, each one with one cryptek could do the trick, however they would need transportation. I have other ideas, but some of them might be considered list tailoring: 1: C'tan with times arrow, combined with whipcoil wraiths. - this is absolute horror for a wraithknight. Initiative test with I1??? Means 5/6 change of getting banned...and it might be used every round of CC. Just try to catch the wraithtknight with the wraiths and let the C'tan pass by, sending him faaar faaar away. if it works, your opponent will hate you forever. 2: MSS-spam: tarpit him with a unit that includes 2-3 MSS. The most probable thing is that he will be hitting himself all game long. (may be a warrior unit in GA (assault vehicle) joined by an OL with MSS and 1-2 lords with MSS. 3: Scarab-tarpid: get a big unit of scarabs and several spiders. The scarabs tarpid the wraithknight while the spiders keep producing new scarabs. |
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| Oberron | Sep 11 2014, 04:14 AM Post #11 |
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Destroyer
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that isn't to bad of an idea. Give the Destroyer Lord a staff of light for some extra shooting (Is the 3+ everyone talking about normal armor or an invuln?) and maybe semp weave and res orb and you could almost reinvent the death and despair wheel. But like you said OLJ 125+pts is pretty heafty for deathmarks. I'd rather have a triarch stlaker with the heavy gauss cannon to LW the thing and get another wound in. Also necron's best weapons vs anything with high wounds or 2+ armor saves is tesla via night/doom scythes or the underpriced AAbarge. Bury them in wounds and they will eventually fail saves. Edited by Oberron, Sep 11 2014, 04:15 AM.
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| Banshee | Sep 11 2014, 04:23 AM Post #12 |
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Lychguard
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To Olfgund: 2 units of 5 need 2 NS and 2 despairtek. It's getting expensive. Plus units became really suicide ones - to few wounds. Plus you need to get from reserve simultaniously and that, even with reserve reroll, may not happen. To Unholy: If my destroyer lord will leave Acanthrites - they won't be defended and effective. I'm not ready for that. To Johnson: I see yout point there - need to make some math around usual cryptek vs despairtek. But i'm not sure, that i can calculate in utility that despairtek gives. 1) it's really specialized. And costy. I have another oponent on the table, which i still need to play against. 2) Same here. Allready using DLord and plannig on using Zahndrekh for flexibility. 3) There are Warp Hunter (heavy 3, blast, barrage, r36 s7 ap3) and noise marines x 2 (4 x heavy 1, blast, ignore cover, r48 s8 ap3) - so i decided to not use scarabs at all - they all will be instakilled. |
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| Banshee | Sep 11 2014, 08:02 AM Post #13 |
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Lychguard
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So i have to field DL (SW), Warriors x 5+, Immortals (gauss) x 5+, Ghost Ark, Annihilation Barge (gauss). We are playing 3-men carnage, so everyone starting pretty close. We have a lot of ruins and difficult terrain. My opponents are Eldar an CSM. Eldar have Wraithknight, 2 Wave Serpents and Warp Hunter (R36, S7, Ap3, Heavy 3, Blast, Barrage). CSM have 1or 2 noise marines (from 1 to 4 R48, S8, Ap3, Heavy 1, Blast, Ignore Cover) and 2 or 3 Obliterators x 3. We are playing Maelstrom missions. After getting all your feedback i decided to try this roster (1850) (more feedback is appreciated): Troops 1: Warriors x 5 Nemesor Zahndrekh Ghost Ark Troops 2: Immortals (Gauss) x 8 Harbinger of the Storm (LF) Night Scythe Elites 1: Deathmarks x 5 Harbinger of Despair Night Scythe Elites 2: Deathmarks x 5 Harbinger of Despair Night Scythe Fast Attack 1: Acanthrites x 7 Destroyer Lord (SW, MSS) Heavy support 1: Annihilation Barge (Gauss) Heavy support 2: Annihilation Barge (Gauss) Fortification: Aegis Defence Line (Comm Relay) |
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| Olfgund | Sep 11 2014, 01:21 PM Post #14 |
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Praetorian
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Nice list, I see it as very strong about the two units of deathmarks vs 1, since i'm seeing a lot of AP3 blast in the enemy's armory, I believe your final choice is the best one. Two smaller units will fare better against scattering blasts. Also, I would of course wildly prefer to have the two units come into play from reserve in the same turn but if they don't, you're not toasted. There is after all a statistical chance that you won't be able to kill it in 1 turn even with all 10 deathmarks. The model is quite big and it will have a very hard time using those ruins and difficult terrain to get a cover save against the rending shots (those despairtek templates will always do their job though). |
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| OhLongJohnson | Sep 11 2014, 05:03 PM Post #15 |
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Cryptek
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List seems good! Only thing that would scare me is the amount of AP3...deathmarks and acanthrites react allergic to that. Are you shure wraiths wouldnt be the better choice after all?? 3+ invul against 3+ armorsave...and especially against the wave serpents the acanthrites melta are not as scary as usual (because they can convert pens into glances). (althought I give you that S8 AP3 blast is about as effective against wraiths as it is against acanthrites) As for the C'tan: Shure it is expensive (I thought you would use wraiths anyways)...althought I think your opponents lists wouldnt have an easy time countering the C'tan...they have a lot of AP2 or Ap3, but lack sheer volume of shots (needed to take down an angry shard). |
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| Banshee | Sep 11 2014, 05:53 PM Post #16 |
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Lychguard
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To Olfgund: in 7th you're getting covered in ruins just by stepping in. So sadly no hard time at getting covered... To Johnson: i guess Obliterators (lasers pew pew pew r48 s9 ap2) and Wave Serpents (Serpent Shields and Scatter Lasers) can take C'tan out in 1 turn. About Wraiths vs Acanthrites - i don' know... Melta shots, T5 and Entropic Strike looks pretty nice on the paper... Especially against W2 Sv2 Obliterators, Vehicles and Fortifications... And Wraiths have to many chances to be instakilled (to many S8+ weapons) while Acantrites will be afraid only of Wraithknight (in terms of being oneshoted). I just don't know... |
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| OhLongJohnson | Sep 11 2014, 06:15 PM Post #17 |
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Cryptek
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As for killing the C'tan: Lascannons arent weapons you really have to fear..because of the 4++ invul. To strip off one wound you would need 6/5*2 = 12/5 = 2,4 hits, thats 3.6 shots. Thats 14.4 shots to kill the C'tan. Does your opponent have this many lascannons?? Also: I guess not everybody is gonna shoot at you, so honestly I think the chaos player would use his lascannons to shoot at the wraithknight, not at your C'tan. I kinda expect the opponent to focuse on your wraiths/acanthrites because they are a lot faster. With every shot your opponent targets the C'tan, he doesnt target your skimmers and acanthrites...so its not all bad. If there are a lot of ruins on the battlefield you could buy the stealth upgrade for the C'tan and thus get a 3+ coversave. As for scatter lasers: I dont remember their stats! If they are something like a lot of shots with S6 or S7, then yes, they might hurt the C'tan. But still: Dont forget that not everybody is gonna focuse fire just on you!! True that acanthrites are nice against the Obliterators, against vehicles wraiths are pretty much the same (in CC) because they attack rear armor (and I dont see any landraiders in these lists). Fortifications are crackable with wraiths, but its easier with acanthrites. Getting oneshootet by the wraithknight sucks thought.... |
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| Banshee | Sep 11 2014, 07:24 PM Post #18 |
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Lychguard
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Well, making Wraiths and C'tan simultaneously charge Wraithknight is not easiest thing to do. Plus C'tan doesn't give any advantage at maelstrom games. I think Deathmarks (which i should replace in this case - at least 1 squad) are more flexible in this list... |
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| OhLongJohnson | Sep 11 2014, 11:33 PM Post #19 |
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Cryptek
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I would try to catch the knight with the wraiths (are fast) and then survive in CC till the c'tan shows up (1-2 turns later). But you are right, if you are playing maelstrom the shard is just too slow and deathmarks in nighscythes are much more useful. Also, I like deathmarks :D |
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| Carnotek | Sep 12 2014, 12:04 AM Post #20 |
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Flayed One
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I just sink 5 or 6 wraiths with coils into never given me any trouble |
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