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Haywire battleship
Topic Started: Sep 18 2014, 11:25 PM (728 Views)
OhLongJohnson
Cryptek
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As my (beautiful) gauntlet of fire-tactic doesnt work, here another weird tactic that had been flipping around in my mind.

Next idea:
Fill a ghost ark with 5 Stormteks.
Cost: About 250 points.

What you get:
- absolute destrucction against vehicles within 18'' of the GA. (Even imperial knights and other superheavies)
- still very effective against vehicles within 24'' of the GA (just move 12'' and snapshot with the stormteks, of 20 shots you should hit about 3, enough to
wreck most vehicles
- pretty effective against fliers within 24'' of the GA. Of the 20 snapshots about 3 should hit...possibly enough to take down a flier. (that means this
battleship is actually good antiair)
- good results against hordes due to 20 S5 AP5 shots. (with bs4)
- decent results against MEQ (about 3 killed marines/shooting phase, not counting the GA)
- very hard to permanently bring down, first the opponent hast to bring down the (always jinking) GA, and then shoot down the stormteks, which is hard
because of everliving...if just 1 stormtek comes back, it might be enough to wreck another vehicle.
- GA gives objective secured

So for 250 points you get a fast vehicle thats total destruction against vehicles and does still pretty good against other targets!! It is also pretty decent antiair.
Of course, the range sucks, so it should work best if you use it together with other fast units (Like wraiths) to not make it the only target in range.

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Banshee
Lychguard
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Voltaic staff doesn't have any AP value.
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OhLongJohnson
Cryptek
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Banshee
Sep 19 2014, 04:17 AM
Voltaic staff doesn't have any AP value.
My bad! I'm so used to write S5 AP5 (due to tau dakka) that I automatically do that :D . Of course voltaic staff doesnt have ap value....does not make a huge difference, but notable.
Still, 20 shots with S5 are pretty darn decent. (and against targets like orks it really does make minor difference if you have AP5 or AP-.

Apart from that? Could you picture it working? It might not be a gamebreaker in every match, but it should be good enough even in matches where your opponent fields few vehicles...
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Banshee
Lychguard
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I don't know... It's interesting but to short-ranged...
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Unholyllama
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Lord
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Largest concern I have on this is the lack of AP on a weapon that requires you to be within charge range.

It works REALLY well against knights and vehicle heavy armies; however, I have to wonder if it's more effective than doing 2-3 stormteks with a veiltek/obyron in a suicide squad. 20 Haywire shots that hit on 3's will yield you a point a diminishing returns since most vehicles have 3-4HPs. Also, having an ark of stormteks isn't as fast as a veiltek/obyron option so it is unlikely that you'll be able to destroy a vehicle prior to your opponent even getting to move a model.
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Olfgund
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Praetorian
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Unholyllama
Sep 19 2014, 03:33 PM
I have to wonder if it's more effective than doing 2-3 stormteks with a veiltek/obyron in a suicide squad. 20 Haywire shots that hit on 3's will yield you a point a diminishing returns since most vehicles have 3-4HPs.
Indeed, a tad overkill compared to having only one stormtek joining in the ghost ark the 5 warriors needed to unlock the vehicle. With the warriors and the gauss flayer array, it is quite sufficient IMO. Unless the enemy vehicle can reliably get cover saves.
An vehicle vehicle that gets within 18" of neccron forme is dead by so many means! (warscythe, scarabs, gauss)
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OhLongJohnson
Cryptek
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yeah it is kinda overkill.
I only thought 5 crypteks would be nice, because it kinda expands the threat range. It gives you the opportunity to snapshot vehicles to death, because of 20 shots 3-4 should hit, possibly wrecking a vehicle.
That gives you "Every vehicle within 18'' is dead, every vehicle within 24'' is quite possibly dead. Every flier within 24'' is quite possibly dead.

So, while the obyron-stormtek combo is faster, it is also easier to kill and has some reliability issues against good players (they will just bubblewrap their superheavies, so that you cant land next to them).
ALso: The obyron combo will work about 1 time (maybe 2 if you are lucky and a lot get back up again), while the battleship can destroy vehicles all game long.
Cost-whise it is nearly the same....
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OhLongJohnson
Cryptek
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Hey there, I have made some testruns with a small java program I made to test how the battleship performs against different opponents, here the results:

Each testrun with 20 attempts:

Battleship against vehicles, snapshotting (that means against fliers or against other vehicles having moved 12''):
0-HP-damage: 0
1-HP-damage: 5
2-HP-damage: 3
3-HP-damage: 4
4-HP-damage: 4
5-HP-damage: 2
6-HP-damage: 2
That means: 3-HP-flier destroyed in 12/20, thats 60% of the cases

Battleship against vehicles, not snappshotting:
7-HP-damage: 2
more than 7 HP damage: 18
That means: Vehicle always destroyed. (even 4+ cover doenst change that a lot)

Battleship against ork boys:
less than 5 kills: 0
5-6 kills: 9
7-9 kills: 9
more than 9 kills: 2

Battleship against spacemarines:
1 kill: 3
2 kills: 8
3 kills: 1
4 kills: 6
5 kills: 1
6 kills: 0
7 kills: 1

Battleship against terminators:
0 kills: 4
1 kill: 9
2 kills: 3
3 kills: 3
7 kills: 1
that means at least 1 kill in 4/5 of the cases, thats 80%.


The numbers to actually not seem bad to me, especially the snapshotting part. (imho moving them 12'' and snapshot is more reliable at killing a vehicle than 1-3 meltas)
Range still sucks.
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Magister Jaigo
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Cryptek
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and it all gets better if you add a triarch stalker to the mix.

arcs with stormteks is very nice.
As I see more knight and even a full knight army it is very deadly.
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C'tan_you_dig_it?
Immortal
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I fought against an orky friend who brought his Stompa while I had no superheavy or anything like it. This was still in 6th. The game was pre-arranged, so I knew I was fighting a stompa and could prepare for it.

I rolled really badly, especially on reserves, so ended up losing, but I did get the stompa briefly down to two hull points before it repaired, and it was a little like this. I deepstriked a monolith in close, then portaled out an overlord with 5 stormteks. Unfortunately, due to my bad reserves, a lot of my army was dead before I got to do that. If my stalker had still been around, it woulda been toast. As it was, the unit almost got a second turn of shooting, but the stompa was barely able to squish it.

In regards to the battleship idea, it would definitely not be the single strike gambit that the portaled Court was, and it discounts the not too rare possibility of a crappy deepstrike.
Edited by C'tan_you_dig_it?, Sep 21 2014, 06:30 PM.
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Khorneholio
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Immortal
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Against an Imperial knight, I could see you getting 1 round of fire on it... but wouldn't it just charge you and stomp you to death after that one round?

My problem against the knights, so far, has been their immunity to freaking every kind of effect. I can't strip their armor with scarabs; I can't immobilize them or destroy weapons with rolls for penetrating hits; I can't exploder them with rolls for penetrating hits; I can't remove them from the board with a tesseract labyrith... Tons and tons and tons of warriors glancing on 6s is the only thing I've had any luck with.
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OhLongJohnson
Cryptek
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Khorneholio
Sep 22 2014, 01:42 AM
Against an Imperial knight, I could see you getting 1 round of fire on it... but wouldn't it just charge you and stomp you to death after that one round?

My problem against the knights, so far, has been their immunity to freaking every kind of effect. I can't strip their armor with scarabs; I can't immobilize them or destroy weapons with rolls for penetrating hits; I can't exploder them with rolls for penetrating hits; I can't remove them from the board with a tesseract labyrith... Tons and tons and tons of warriors glancing on 6s is the only thing I've had any luck with.
The thing is: with about 10 HP damage average, the imperial knight will not SURVIVE that one round of fire! So the only thing that can stomp you to death after that one round would be ANOTHER imperial knight, wich is difficult because it would have to destroy the GA first, giving you ANOTHER round of fire (another destroyed knight)...
Against knights the way to go is just strip off a lot of HP, this works via gauss or via haywire.
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__MościNIECZlek__
Destroyer
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haevy gouss cannons do any good? one from stalker 2D3HD tons o gauss fromm morties eldritch lances...
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Unholyllama
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Lord
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Heavy Gauss work "ok" against Knights; however, Knights have that stupid 4++ save on the 1 facing which prevents hurts some. Heat Rays work good but they too run into the Knight's 4++ save and (more than likely) getting destroyed the following turn due to being within a Knight's charge range to get Melta off.

Mass haywire,mass gauss, and flyers work well against knights. If you can flank one (so you side won't have the 4++ save) then you'll be in pretty good shape. The annoying thing though is how much you have to commit to taking one out for a turn - giving your opponent pretty much free reign with the rest of their army. That said, against knights, I've found it beneficial to not worry about one too much if you go first. Unless you are facing multiple Knights, spending a turn on an alpha strike on other units first tends to work better for me - waiting 1 turn for the knight to move forward into rapid fire range so that I can concentrate on it during turn 2 (or bottom or 1).
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OhLongJohnson
Cryptek
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Unholyllama
Sep 22 2014, 02:41 PM
Heavy Gauss work "ok" against Knights; however, Knights have that stupid 4++ save on the 1 facing which prevents hurts some. Heat Rays work good but they too run into the Knight's 4++ save and (more than likely) getting destroyed the following turn due to being within a Knight's charge range to get Melta off.

Mass haywire,mass gauss, and flyers work well against knights. If you can flank one (so you side won't have the 4++ save) then you'll be in pretty good shape. The annoying thing though is how much you have to commit to taking one out for a turn - giving your opponent pretty much free reign with the rest of their army. That said, against knights, I've found it beneficial to not worry about one too much if you go first. Unless you are facing multiple Knights, spending a turn on an alpha strike on other units first tends to work better for me - waiting 1 turn for the knight to move forward into rapid fire range so that I can concentrate on it during turn 2 (or bottom or 1).
I second that, I once played against a pure-knight-army. I ended loosing (was very close, one of his knights left with 1 hp, one with 2).
The most important part if you play against multiples is to focuse on one at a time. it is VERY important to flank them, because their invul works just on one side. What works well is for example gauss-spam from the front and an AB shooting into the side armor. Once you reduced them from 6 knights to 3 or less its easier to win, because the opponent will only be able to take out a limited number of your units per turn.

In the game I played I definitly could have won, biggest problem was that my whole tactic got screwed over as the opponent seized initiative.

I would have won with the haywire battleship :D hahaha.
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__MościNIECZlek__
Destroyer
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VoD - one can DS...
as per DS and HD U can hit more pericese - right feaceing

and lynch scythes any good? ... wits destructec with SP tranzyn and 2 lordies...
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Unholyllama
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Lord
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__MościNIECZlek__
Sep 22 2014, 02:49 PM
VoD - one can DS...
as per DS and HD U can hit more pericese - right feaceing

and lynch scythes any good? ... wits destructec with SP tranzyn and 2 lordies...
Lychguard are terrible. They are even worse against Knights or anything that inflicts a strength D hit. Knights, in melee, have 3 Strength D, AP2 attacks. Each hit will inflict 0-12 wounds onto the unit - at AP2. This means Lychguard with Warscythe won't survive as they have no invulnerable saves. Lychguard with Sword and Shield won't be able to harm a Knight. And even with the Shield, there's still a 1:6 chance that the hit will roll a 6 which prevents invulnerable saves from happening.

For Necrons, getting into close combat with a Knight (or Stompa) is a death sentence more than typical CC.
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__MościNIECZlek__
Destroyer
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sziit :] mss?
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Unholyllama
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Lord
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__MościNIECZlek__
Sep 22 2014, 04:44 PM
sziit :] mss?
Knights are super-heavy walkers (vehicles) so MSS won't work.

The Thermal Cannon on each one would make it a worthwhile target for Anrakyr though. The only issue with Anrakyr is that you cannot change the facing of the Knight. So if the Knight player keeps them out of each other's firing ark, Anrakyr's ability to take them over becomes moot.
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__MościNIECZlek__
Destroyer
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good point. and i guess he may shot only sttionatry????? can he assault.... thx.
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