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Some charge range testruns; (and the effects of fleet and seismic crucible)
Topic Started: Sep 23 2014, 11:04 PM (598 Views)
OhLongJohnson
Cryptek
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hey there, in order to get more into charge ranges (and the effects of fleet/seismic crucible) I ran some testruns. I tought I'd share the results here:

10000 attempts each one:

charge distance, without fleet, without seismic crucible.
0'': 0
1'': 0
2'': 301
3'': 550
4'': 861
5'': 1089
6'': 1344
7'': 1681
8'': 1357
9'': 1121
10'': 841
11'': 584
12'': 271

with fleet, without seismic crucible:
0'': 0
1'': 0
2'': 47
3'': 131
4'': 302
5'': 573
6'': 895
7'': 1261
8'': 1595
9'': 1687
10'': 1499
11'': 1259
12'': 751

without fleet, with seismic crucible:
0'': 347
1'': 557
2'': 783
3'': 1104
4'': 1401
5'': 1507
6'': 1415
7'': 1096
8'': 857
9'': 550
10'': 282
11'': 101
12'': 0

with fleet, with power crucible:
0'': 73
1'': 167
2'': 355
3'': 558
4'': 861
5'': 1244
6'': 1524
7'': 1565
8'': 1524
9'': 1221
10'': 660
11'': 248
12'': 0

results for charging distance throught difficult terrain, with the effect of seismic crucible (without fleet):
0'': 1710
1'': 1148
2'': 1420
3'': 1501
4'': 1330
5'': 1147
6'': 831
7'': 563
8'': 270
9'': 80
10'': 0
11'': 0
12'': 0


Hope this is helpful for someone!
Edited by OhLongJohnson, Oct 2 2014, 01:29 AM.
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Vectron
Flayed One
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I suppose it's helpful, but wouldn't it be easier to just calculate the exact values?
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OhLongJohnson
Cryptek
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Vectron
Sep 23 2014, 11:15 PM
I suppose it's helpful, but wouldn't it be easier to just calculate the exact values?
naa once you make a small programm there is no difference between running 1 testrun or 1000000....
average values have their limitations. For me, its more interesting to see "how many times would I pass a charge if I need at least 5''"....something like that...average doesnt help me with that.
And once you take into account fleet and seismic crucible and stuff like that, it gets actually easier to calculate an average by running the whole thing 100000 times, than calculating the real, "statistically correct" average.

Or do you mean it would have been better to directly calculate the porcentual values?? because you would be right :D. its easy to calculate (just divide by 10000), but I could have done that in the first place!



Some mentionable results:

If you use seismic crucible, a non-fleet-opponent has an about 72% chance of failing a 7'' charge. This is a SIGNIFICANT improve. (without seismic crucible a non-fleet-opponent has just an about 42% chance of failing a 7'' charge.)

Seismic crucible is "stronger" than fleet, this means that an opponent with fleet against an unit with seismic crucible has higher possibilities of failing a charge than a non-fleet-opponent against a unit that does not include seismic crucible.

The results surprised me somehow, I did not think that seismic crucible would be that effective, but numbers show it is actually really effective at letting opponents fail their charge (more effective than the D3 might let you assume).
Edited by OhLongJohnson, Sep 24 2014, 06:20 AM.
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Unholyllama
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Lord
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Something else to factor in that isn't reflected here - assaulting into/over terrain. My rule of thumb is a +/- 2" variance. As shown in the numbers in the OP, Seismic Crucible tends to yield a -2" charge range. This, accounting for difficult terrain as well, would turn into a -4" average charge range. So if you're camping an objective, using the crucible while in cover is a great way of preventing someone from coming after you. 7th ed charging into/through cover is definitely nice and simplified.

Stats are great for a baseline of assumptions. Dice aren't as dependable but stats definitely help with judging one unit/situation over another.

Thanks for putting this together OLJ.
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OhLongJohnson
Cryptek
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True!
results for charging distance throught difficult terrain, with the effect of seismic crucible:

0'': 1710
1'': 1148
2'': 1420
3'': 1501
4'': 1330
5'': 1147
6'': 831
7'': 563
8'': 270
9'': 80
10'': 0
11'': 0
12'': 0


chance of failing a 7'' charge: about 90%!
chance of failing a 5'' charge: about 71% !!!
(really sucks to charge you throught diffiuclt terrain with seismic crucible)


Another effect that may be important: If you use seismic crucible, you necesarily use a harbinger of transmogrification. If you shoot at the unit that gets close, they will also move throught difficult terrain in their movement phase. This means they move 1-2'' less in their movement phase and will need a higher roll for their charge range to make the charge. So the harbinger has a doble effect: Slowing the opponent in his movement phase and slowing the opponent in the assault phase.

Finally: Overwatch may make a difference. If you have a strong overwatch (like my gauntlet of fire lord unit), you may reduce the charge distance even further as you may kill the enemies front line.

I think I'm gonna run some testruns with my gauntlet of fire-unit. I then will assume -0.5'' on the enemy charge range for each killed opponent in overwatch.
Do you think 0.5'' would be about right???
Edited by OhLongJohnson, Oct 2 2014, 01:28 AM.
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Unholyllama
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Lord
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Yea. A small, 5-man group of Tesla Immortals with a Crucible-tek in ruins is probably one of the most difficult units to peel off of an objective in the game. Shooting at them will mean you have to deal with their 3+ saves, 3+ cover if they go to ground (2+ if stealth'ed from Zahndrekh). Assaulting means you have about a 3" dependable charge range.

Now, with assaulting, there are those great units we all love that ignore difficult terrain when charging (i.e. Wraiths) but for the most part, Crucible-teks are great support for objective campers.
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OhLongJohnson
Cryptek
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True that some units ignore difficult terrain while charging...however, seismic crucible does always work.
While difficult+seismic is a huge pain for the opponent, seismic alone is still pretty good. So maybe it is really a good idea to start sticking harbs of transmogrification into units you dont want to get charged...their weapon has also the great utility of forcing dangerous terrain on several types of enemy units, which may come in very handy.

I'm starting to think that seismic crucible is underrated. If you stick it for example into a unit of 20 warriors, these warriors will be much harder to kill (due to reduced chance of getting charged...and getting charged is the one thing they hate)

What about the overwatch? Do you think -0.5'' for every killed model is about right?
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Unholyllama
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Lord
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I wouldn't worry about overwatch casualties. Way too much variance to make anything truly worthwhile.

As for the Seismic Crucible being underrated, I would say it is the star of the Transmog-tek but is very conditional. Necrons, arguably, have the best transport in the game via the Ghost Ark (Night Scythe and Wave Serpents are close competitors). With that, plus DTs can become objective secure, the need for a Seismic Crucible is diminished slightly. Yes you can have a unit squat on a back field objective but doing such means you are committing a part of your army to doing nothing but defending that objective. For any model to see action, your opponent has to make it back there which may not be the case. Since the Seismic doesn't work while within a transport (transports don't count towards the unit) then you're looking at a situational tool at best.
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OhLongJohnson
Cryptek
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yeah overwatch is pretty unreliable, however in my gauntlet of fire unit it actually becomes quite reliable....(against orks I would count with at least 3 kills)

it is true that the crucible is situacional, however I can think of situations where its useful:
1: camping objectives, this has already been mentioned
2: big blop of warriors accompanied by Ghost arks (however, warriors not inside Ghost ark). Very durable unit (silver tide), even more durable with crucible
3: Immortals unit you drop in doble-tap-range to opponents. The harbinger with crucible makes it pretty probable that you wont get charged the subsequent turn.

Also to mention: I think there is always place in every necron army for 1 harbinger of transmogrification. Slowing down a specific unit or force dangerous terrain on others is pretty good, a lot of utility for this pointcost....and once you have the harbinger, the crucible is no expensive upgrade.
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Olfgund
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Praetorian
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More than the point cost, the opportunity cost is greater IMO.
Necron troop units can have a limited number of royal courtiers assigned to them (one per overlord). We therefore have the opportunity to add lords or harbingers to add strategic assets to the unit. The crucible is in competition with the lightning field/voltaic staff of the stormtek, the veil of the despairtek and firepower of the destructek, not forgetting the resurrection orb/MSS of the lord. These items are normally far less situational than the crucible.
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OhLongJohnson
Cryptek
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Olfgund
Sep 24 2014, 05:33 PM
More than the point cost, the opportunity cost is greater IMO.
Necron troop units can have a limited number of royal courtiers assigned to them (one per overlord). We therefore have the opportunity to add lords or harbingers to add strategic assets to the unit. The crucible is in competition with the lightning field/voltaic staff of the stormtek, the veil of the despairtek and firepower of the destructek, not forgetting the resurrection orb/MSS of the lord. These items are normally far less situational than the crucible.
True that, and you also have to take an overlord...

However, are the other opportunities so much better?
- lighting field: I'd rather have my warriors not getting charged at all than triggering the LF, even with LF the warrior unit gets swept in most of the cases!
- despairtec: I have not seen many veiltecs in warrior units lately. Big units of warriors have a big footprint and I would be really scared of mishaps if using deepstriking (not to mention blasts after I arrived via deepstrike)
- lord with orb: Pretty expensive! Most people tend to not use orb anymore, or have the overlord equipped with the orb (in this case the occupied slot doesnt matter)
- destructec: Firepower, however undirected firepower (usually you want to shoot at different targets with the lance than with the gauss flayers...
also: there are a lot of moments in which I prefer utility over pure firepower.

As for immortals arriving via scythe: I admit that most options are better than the harbinger of transmogrification. (Stormtek works wonders)

Power crucible is situational, however so is the lightning field. The normal weapon of the harbinger is not that situational, there is usually always something that hates difficult terrain or something to slow down.

Before doing these testruns I would have agreed with you...however the effect of the crucible is much stronger than I expected it to be!! And a failed change (against a big blop of warriors for example) often is a game-changing event.
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Secundum
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Phaeron
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This is quite useful. Pinning it.
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OhLongJohnson
Cryptek
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Edited the "throught difficult terrain, with effect of seismic crucible" part, and as I predicted it is much harder to charge you that way. Actually The chance of failing a 5'' charge is more than 70%.
Edited by OhLongJohnson, Oct 2 2014, 01:31 AM.
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