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| Mean tomblade -anti transport tactic | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Apr 11 2015, 08:17 PM (782 Views) | |
| OhLongJohnson | Apr 11 2015, 08:17 PM Post #1 |
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Cryptek
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Hey there, this is a tactic I posted a loooong time ago when tombaldes werent as awesome as they are now. The thing is the following: Tomblades are fast, tomblades are huge models, and now: Tomblades have unit sizes of up to 10. This gives us a VERY mean tactic. Following situation: Opponent has a unit inside a transport vehicle (spacemarines in rhino, terminator in landraider, name any) What to do? Surround the transport with the tomblades, then wreck it! As the models inside cant disembark, they all die. (even terminators!) Surrounding with tomblades is acually quite easy: Move 12'' and if needed, flat out 24'' inches. Then pop the transport with another unit. (yes, you give the transport a 5+ cover save, but its still worth it) If the opponents vehicle even is within 12'' of the tomblades, you can surround it and pop it with the tomblades themselfes. As they are big models, I guess 4-5 tomblades will be enough to surround a rhino. 7-8 should be enough to surround a landraider. I think this can be a VERY nasty surprise for your opponent (Especially as the tomblades have that 36'' threat range) |
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| Treelamp | Apr 11 2015, 10:43 PM Post #2 |
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Flayed One
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I... feel dirty just for reading that. However, of all the tactics that defy standard conventions, and make me feel like they are "dirty tricks" this is probably the least; Surrounding a tank when it's blowing up and shooting down everyone running out of it in the cross fire makes perfect sense, if the opportunity were present. So as far as suspension of disbelief goes, I can actually get behind this one. Congo-linging units to "force" them into range with bubble auras on the other hand, is just a bit too much for my taste. |
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| OhLongJohnson | Apr 11 2015, 11:43 PM Post #3 |
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Cryptek
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Haha, yes its quite dirty. Maybe something to use in a tournament and not on your best friend. :D Or something to use against someone that just used a dirty trick against you. Point aside: I accidently put that thread in the armylist subforum althought it is obviously tactica. Can someone with the rights please move it?' |
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| Secundum | Apr 12 2015, 02:41 AM Post #4 |
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Phaeron
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Doesn't emergency disembark mean that if your hatch etc. is blocked, you disembark anywhere within 6", and then can't do anything on your next turn? (not pinned or anything-the people are just unable to do a thing other than fight in CC if charged). I had that situation yesterday-my Lychguard wrecked a Chimera, the Guardsmen got out via emergency disembark, and stood there getting shot to bits by 20 Necron Warriors at point blank. (That particular game was 1500pts, vs. Armoured Company-I won 15-1, with no formations, Decurion, etc. I felt kinda bad.) =( Also, topic moved. |
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| OhLongJohnson | Apr 12 2015, 02:51 AM Post #5 |
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Cryptek
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I do not think they can perform a emergency disembark. The only difference between normal disembark and emergency disembark is that you can place models that perform an emergency disembark touching any part of the hull, while normal disembarking just works on access points. ( I just reread the part of the BRB) But, even performing an emergency disembark you cannot place the models touching the hull, because thats where the tomblades are (and you cant place any model within 1'' of an enemy model). Thus, there is no way to place the models..which leaves the only logical consequence that they perish. also: Thx for moving the topic. |
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| Akar | Apr 12 2015, 04:49 AM Post #6 |
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Destroyer
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This is an old tactic that has returned from when Scarabs were Jetbikes. You Turbo boost the 1-2 units needed to surround the Vehicle, then glance it up. Did this several times even in the Last Dex if you ran Tomb Blades. They do get to Emergency Disembark though, but they have to be on top on the Vehicle that you wrecked. Since you have to still remain 1" away this leaves a decent amount of Room. |
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| OhLongJohnson | Apr 12 2015, 04:53 AM Post #7 |
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Cryptek
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isnt a wrecked vehicle impassable terrain? This would make it impossible to sit on the top of it...I might be wrong thought. |
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| Akar | Apr 12 2015, 05:59 AM Post #8 |
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Destroyer
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Nope, it's just difficult/dangerous ground. (IIRC, Im at work so no book on me...) It's often treated as Impassable because no one wants to put models on top of painted models or models with small, breakable pieces. |
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| Treelamp | Apr 12 2015, 07:17 AM Post #9 |
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Flayed One
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Yeah, it says: " In any other circumstance, a Wrecked model is left in place, and is treated as a Citadel scenery model with the dif f icult terrain type." I mean it makes plenty of sense, they allow for movement of models up 3" gaps to climb levels of buildings, without even requiring ladders (Like they have in some versions of fantasy/mordheim before), so I mean really, why not the 2-3" tall tank? Seems legit to me. Although even still if the unit is large enough, they will be getting quite a bit of dead models from the small size of area they can deploy ontop of the tank. Well maybe. Either way, probably not the most effective tactic, especially if you're trying to play friendly, and not induce rage. |
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| Akar | Apr 12 2015, 09:27 AM Post #10 |
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Destroyer
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It doesn't remove all the models, but it will remove most of them. GREAT for Land Raider crusaders carrying 15 man units of assaulty goodness that then suffers with just 4-5 models remaining. |
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| OhLongJohnson | Apr 12 2015, 03:14 PM Post #11 |
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Cryptek
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rulewhise, Id still have to check if you can place a model in difficult terrain when disembarking. (the problem is not them climbing the rhino, thats no problem. The problem is before making the movement you have to place them in a legal place...now, is the top of a tank a legal place to put them? have to check that. Even if it is, it will severly reduce the opponents numbers and force them to do an emergency disembarking (no transport I know has an access point on the top), so you also hinder the unit from doing anything else that turn. They will just sit on top of the tank and get shot from everywhere :D Also lets not forget: While it is quite easy to place models on top of rhinos/landraiders (box form), try to put models on top of a ghost ark or devilfish :D Edit: A thing I noticed: If you allow opponents to disembark on top of a destroyed vehicle, you would also allow the opponent to generally MOVE on top of a vehicle. (lets say IG weaponteams sitting on top of a leman russ). I'm quite shure this is not possible (althought I dont have the rules section on hand). Take into account that the moment the unit disembarks from the vehicle, it is not destroyed yet (otherwhise you couldnt have any contact with the hull, as there wouldnt be a hull anymore but just a piece of dangerous terrain). So, if the vehicle is not destroyed yet, it is not dangerous terrain yet but impassable terrain (as its still a vehicle model)..meaning you would not be able to place any models on top of it. Edited by OhLongJohnson, Apr 12 2015, 07:13 PM.
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| Treelamp | Apr 13 2015, 12:39 AM Post #12 |
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Flayed One
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That issue is simplistic and is even addressed in the book, about the Tilt-y model rule, or what ever it's called. Any time you can't actually get a model placed (Lets just assume we all care about our models and their paint) then it's totally fine to simply agree on where they are, so the "Odd shaped" vehicles thing isn't really a deal. The second part however I can see your point. That said, I can also firmly assert that GW has never (And probably will never) understand the finer intricacies of English nor have they ever been lawyers. What you are suggesting is far beyond the scope of anything GW would have ever thought of to cover in the book, and gods bless them, in making the game simpler they have greatly reduced the number of superfluous/random rules that need to be remembered. Not only do I think that's a silly subject to really try to bring as an argument, I think it would be foolish for GW to make such specific rules, as that is clearly something you can make a friendly ruling on, rather than trying to force timing issues or minute differences in phrasing in a book that wasn't made for it. Besides the fact that the rules text would quickly become as long as any legal document with such specific wording used to avoid any ability to abuse the intent of the subject (Which mind you, laws still get abused fairly regularly, which is why we also have Judges and Courts to make ruling on such "RAW" interpretations of actual legal documents). Granted in tournament settings it could be an issue, but as we compile such issues, we can simply make sure we ask the judges before we play. And if it's just a friendly pick-up-and-play game then you can come to civil agreements with friends (Or strangers even), and anyone you play who can't do as such you will have been fortunate enough to learn they are no longer someone you ever want to play with! TL;DR: I disagree with taking everything RAW. I understand wanting to understand situations but.. with the rules as they are it is hardly worth arguing over. But that is probably why I primarily concern myself with the modeling aspect of the game, or playing with people I know aren't going to force stupid twist of rules on me. |
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| OhLongJohnson | Apr 13 2015, 01:43 AM Post #13 |
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Cryptek
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I understand your point, and you are right that its not the most friendly thing to do...I'd probably not do it against a friend...but its not impossible I'd do it in a tournament. There the things are different... Its more a thing to have in your trickbox. Be aware you can do it, but be careful WHEN you do it (otherwise you are gonna run out of opponents at some point) As for: "how fine the wording is". I reread the rules and its actually quite clear...under "effects on passengers" under the "vehicle wrecked" part it says (paraphrased): "all passengers must immediately disembark. AFTER THAT the vehicle gets wrecked)". So it clearly states that during the disembarkation process the vehicle is not destroyed yet, making it impossible for any model to move on top. Maybe there is a softer version of the same tactic: Just use the tomblades to forbid your opponent to disembark (without killing all passengers): Just surround the vehicle with tomblades. In his next turn, the opponent may not move (unless making tankshock) and no passenger will be able to disembark. Even IF the vehicle frees itself with a tankshock, the passengers are not gonna be able to disembark. (because you cant disembark after tankshocking). This is also quite mean as you might totally neutralize a unit of terminators within a landraider...they just cant ever get out xD. |
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| Treelamp | Apr 13 2015, 02:07 AM Post #14 |
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Flayed One
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The unfriendly thing isn't doing it in my opinion, it's just pushing for rules that may not be directly intended (Or things that are relatively unfun for people, such as losing whole units to potential misunderstandings). I have no problem with it happening to me or me doing it to them; The issue for me is dancing on the thin line of a rule. But as you said it does seem a lot more clear when it's directly in the book as two back to back sentences, they clearly understood they were putting that rule in. Although I am unsure if there is strictly speaking a rule that prohibits standing on.. tanks? I mean I take for granted that is true, but I'm not sure. Either way, I stand by my advice to clarify issues that might crop up before you play games ever. Especially in a tournament setting, because misunderstandings or house rules do exist and it's just poor for everyone if they end up on the side that planned for the game to be played one way and they find out it's a bit different. EDIT: Besides, similar rules exist for units insta-dying anyways, with things like Deep Strike (Which is tantamount to a transport), and being chased down or other such. It's not completely undue to have a unit die entirely. Unless there is nothing the opponent can ever do to prevent the issue, then it's a bit more of a balance problem, but I doubt that is the case with the TB vs Transport. Edited by Treelamp, Apr 13 2015, 02:08 AM.
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| Unholyllama | Apr 13 2015, 02:45 PM Post #15 |
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Lord
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I use this trick a lot iwth my Orks. If you wreck (not explode) a vehicle, the crew inside must do an emergency disembarkment (so 3" move). If they cannot start against the hull of the vehicle and outside of 1" from an enemy model before moving 3", that model is removed as a casualty. Emergency Disembarkment pretty much means you're ripping a hole in teh side of the hull instead of going out the door. In this case, circling a transport with Tomb Blades and wrecking it is a very VALID way of destroying a unit. If you explode the transport though - the unit is still placed where the transport was; however, any model that cannot be placed in that space and 1" away from an enemy is removed as a casualty. |
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| Charistoph | Apr 13 2015, 04:14 PM Post #16 |
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Lychguard
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Emergency Disembarkment is the full 6", you just can't do anything else that turn, unlike a normal Disembarkment. However, as has been mentioned, they must start touching base with the Transport first, which is hampered by there being no place to do so. |
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| OhLongJohnson | Apr 13 2015, 04:32 PM Post #17 |
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Cryptek
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its actually 3'' as unholy said. This has nothing to do with emergency disembarking but instead with disembarking from a vehicle that got wrecked. In the chapter "effects on passengers" under transports it says so. If you disembark from a wrecked vehicle (no matter if normal disembarking or emergency) you have to end the move within 3'' of the hull. (acess point). this pretty much means that even if you just block 3 sides with the tomblades and destroy the vehicle you are pretty likely gonna whipe out most of the opponents unit. As for disembarking on top of the vehicle: I think it is pretty much settled that its illegal, right? Basically the meanest thing of the whole combo is the speed of the tomblades (up to 36'' with flat out) The only thing the opponent might do to prevent this from happening is just disembark the models inside (which gives you a tactical advantage). As I mentioned, even if you DONT destroy the vehicle you get a tactical advantage out of it as you force the vehicle to tankshock in order to move. So, either way, the opponent is not gonna be able to disembark his units...so you can really neutralize a unit of terminators within a landraider with just a unit of tomblades. |
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| Unholyllama | Apr 13 2015, 05:11 PM Post #18 |
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Lord
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Technically speaking, you can disembark ontop of a wrecked vehicle as wrecked vehicles are considered difficult terrain. There is no rules for reduced movement on an emergency disembarkment (normal disembarking into difficult terrain is treated as moving into difficult terrain...2D6 take the highest). So there are a few models that can survive by disembarking on top of a wrecked vehicle in the worst case scenario; however, they would still be required to take a pinning test and any model that cannot be placed within 1" of an enemy model counts towards taking 25% casualties in a phase for a morale test. Just the same, you're looking at ~3 marines on top of a rhino fitting? It would all depend on the dimensions of the vehicle as you'd be looking at a single line along the middle of the transport (as you'd have 1" from both edge of the hull with your own models). Edited by Unholyllama, Apr 13 2015, 05:15 PM.
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| OhLongJohnson | Apr 13 2015, 05:31 PM Post #19 |
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Cryptek
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But take into account that the vehicle is not destroyed yet the moment the models disembark. It gets destroyed AFTER all models have disembarked. (reread the "effects on passenger"-part). So, the moment the models disembark the vehicle is still a vehicle (a model) and not a piece of difficult terrain. Thus, if you would disembark on top of the vehicle you would put a model on top of another one and I'm quite shure this is not possible. |
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| Olfgund | Apr 13 2015, 05:50 PM Post #20 |
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Praetorian
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I have looked at the rule mentionned by OLJ. the Last phrase is "(...) After this, the vehicle becomes a wreck". Wouldn't this means that the vehicle is a model until the emergency disembark is finished and then becomes a wreck? edit: got ninja'ed.. Edited by Olfgund, Apr 13 2015, 05:51 PM.
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