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| Poss 4000 pts vs. Orks; Trim down? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Apr 15 2015, 09:38 AM (170 Views) | |
| Akar | Apr 15 2015, 09:38 AM Post #1 |
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Destroyer
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So I MIGHT have a 4k game coming up vs. Orks. Trying to see what I would take before deciding to actually spend the day on Red Bull. What I have: Zahndrekh, Szeras, Imotekh, 2 Crypteks, 4 "Lords" (Lychguard Kit bash) Shard of the Deceiver (Converted), and the original Nagash model as another C'Tan Shard 100 Warriors 30 Immortals 20 Flayed Ones (Still can't find my metal ones for a total of 40) 10 Tomb Blades (Orig. Necron Destroyers, work well as Particle Beamer) 4 Destroyers (In pieces, but just need some love) 12 Wraiths 18 Scarabs 2 Nightscythes 2 Ghost Arks 2 Annihilation Barges 2 Triarch Stalkers (Options for either Particle, or Heavy Gauss) Unbuilt 2 Tomb Spyders (Just never used them) 14 Praetorians (Waiting on bits for Conversion) 8 Scarabs So after just straight up adding it all up w/o going into the unbuilt stuff I own, I easily approach the 5k mark. So actually thinking of taking it down a notch. Where I am at so far:
I'm pretty sure my math is off, but this should put me in the 3300 range, with PLENTY of options to fill it. We might just go all out and UNBOUND it, in which case I'll just add the Wraiths and Scarabs. A 4k point legal Decurion seems too good to pass up. YES, I know I can go with 2 Canoptek formations if I put the Tomb Spyders together, but they'll actually be choked with this many models on the field and stuck on flank duty, which now that I think about it, might not be a bad option. I could also scrounge through my bits and maybe find one of the cannons to drop into a Ghost Ark and turn it into a DDArk, then that would allow me to field the ABarges. I can squeeze in the Nightscythes wherever. If I drop the Ghost Arks (1 for a DDArk), then I'd field 15 Warriors in 2 Different Nightscythes to support whever my field is weakest. The Flayed Ones are split and will be infiltrating right in front of my lines to be an Ork Speed bump. I'll probably have 2 of the Lords join them on Turn 1 to use the Orbs for when I get assaulted. Tesla Immortals because they'll be behind the Warriors so want to get as many shots as I can. REALLY want to fit in the Triarch Stalkers, so might stall the game until I can get the Praetorians done and take the Nightscythes with them. That's just too much firepower to pass up at BS5. So that's it, (and Im at work bored off my shiny metal ----)! |
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| Secundum | Apr 15 2015, 12:55 PM Post #2 |
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Phaeron
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I'd add two C'tan Shards (Deciever and Transcendant), and run the Annihilation Nexus and the Canptek formation. |
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| OhLongJohnson | Apr 15 2015, 04:06 PM Post #3 |
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Cryptek
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If you want to make the whole thing legal, why not run a decurion & a normal cad? just split one of the 10-model-units of immortals into 2 units of 5 and let 1 of the crypteks from the royal court lead the cad. Now you have 3 elite, 3 fast attack, 3 heavy support to fill the way you want them. The only very small downside is that the 2 units of 5 immortals dont profit from +1 on RP, but I think thats not a big deal. This would allow you to use wraiths without canoptek harvest (what I would prefer) and gives you the possibility to run stalkers without judicator (I would probably still run judicator, but it is an option) |
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| Unholyllama | Apr 15 2015, 05:24 PM Post #4 |
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Lord
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Do you know if your opponent will be fielding a Stompa (the Ork Superheavy lord of war)? As an Ork player in addition to Necrons, I don't know if I would want to field such again Necrons (so much gauss); however, it's a game at a point level that big toys are fun. Any insight into your opponent will help - at 4k, list building is wide open when it comes to what to expect. As OLJ mentioned, you can easily go Decurion+CAD and stay bound. The Ork player has plenty of options for organizing their force as well so I don't think they'll be a need to go Unbound. Since you have 2 Spyders, tons of Scarabs, and 12 Wraiths - I would find a way to work in 2 Canoptek Harvest formations into the list. Even wtih your mass shooting, orks will still eat Necrons for lunch in the assault phase. Wraiths and Scarabs can help in slowing down the boyz and also fighting back well. I highly recommend whip coils on all wraiths if you do that. I would also drop the entire Royal Court formation if it meant I could get these 2 formations in - there's very little the Royal Court does for you beyond give you access to Imotekh. In addition, I would field the NIght Scythes in the army. Even if fielded empty, they are still fantastic. So, running with the Decurion+CAD idea, I would drop the Royal Court and add the 2 Canoptek Harvest formations. For the CAD, I would move 20 Warriors and 2 Crypteks into Night Scythes. I would then add the Annihilation Barges for the CAD Heavy Support choices. To assist with points, I would drop 1 unit of Tomb Blades and 1 unit of Warriors. I haven't ran the numbers; however, that'll net you a lot of additional shots, some air support, and additional power from both a shooting and melee perspective. |
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| Akar | Apr 16 2015, 05:48 PM Post #5 |
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Destroyer
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He sent me a copy of his list. It's just Ork Horde. About 250 infantry with the odd vehicle. I think his formation allows him to Waaagh every turn after the first, but that's about it. As for me, I settled on this list for the game.
The CAD suggestion worked just fine. Thats 167 to his 250. What I've done is try to get 3 Mini forces. Each block of Warriors has its Tesla support and Wraiths, they're already going to be screened by the FOs. The Stalkers and ABarges will be sitting between them nicely. With the 2 units off board in reserve, it shouldn't be as crowded as I'm normally used so should give me some play. I decided to go with the Nightscythes and since those units aren't going to be near the Warlord for the Rerolls, they went into the CAD to chase his backfield like the Lootas and Mek Guns. Crypteks will still grant them the 4+RP. Some things will look odd. Like The current Wraith setup, and MSS, and Szeras. I'm going with a VERY old Wraith tactic and using them to support the Warriors in CC using Fearless. He's going to need to hit the weaker Warriors in combat to have a decent shot, if I lose, then the Wraiths will prevent a sweep. If he hits the Wraiths, then his kill count should be low enough for me to win. The 3 Warrior units and both units of Flayed Ones have some fear causing mechanic in them. MSS on 3D6 if I can get him to accept a challenge. The main blob will have to take 2 Fear checks in CC if he hits it and accepts the challenge. Could be interesting if the situation calls for it I can actually make use of the 'Intimidating Presence' Warlord trait on Zahndrekh. A LOT of people don't like Szeras. I absolutely love him in a full block of Warriors. Considering the opponent, even the +1 Strength bonus will be fine. I'm just hoping I don't get the +1 BS because of the Stalkers. It just makes the 'Target Priority' Trait less attractive if I choose to use it. Other than that, a good portion of this game is actually going to matter on who goes first since he is probably going to Waaagh! Every turn. If he goes first, then I'll have reserves covered if I need it and without my field as cluttered, I should be able to have a bit more freedom to move in response. |
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| Unholyllama | Apr 16 2015, 07:10 PM Post #6 |
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Lord
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With regards to the Ork tactics (for reference to those unfamiliar), the special rule is call Stampede and is part of the Ork Warband and Greentide formations. With that many models he'll go for Greentide which has some interesting issues that you can exploit. First off: Waaagh! Waaagh! allows all models with the 'Ere We Go (which is any non-vehicle, non-gretchin unit) to run and charge in the same turn. Stampede allows for a Waaagh! to be called at the start of every turn after the first. Only Warbosses that are the warlord have the Waagh! special rule (unless they roll it on the Codex:Ork warlord trait table instead of BRB or Ghazghkull supplement) - so if you take out the Warboss/Warlord your opponent cannot Waaagh! any more. Biggest An' Da Best This is a supplement special rule that comes with the Green Tide. If the warlord is taken from a detachment/formation from the supplement (like the Green tide) they have to declare and accept challenges. Warbosses are mean but they can still be sniped out in this manner. Green Tide The formation is 1 Warboss and 10 units of boyz that form into 1 giant unit of 100-300 (plus warboss) models. This pretty much completely prevents you from forcing morale due to 25% casualties. It also means that you may have up to 10 PK Nobz sprinkled amongst the crowd. Over time, the green tide will take up a LOT of space on the table - this has some tactical advantages; however, it also means that they can't really move w/o hitting difficult terrain which slows them down. Mob Rule & Da' Boss is Watchin' Mob rule in orks triggers whenever the unit fails a Morale or Pinning test (Fear tests don't trigger such). If a morale or pinning test fails, the player rolls a D6 and consults a chart. Long story short, on a 2+ the ork player will be deal D3+3 S4 AP- hits onto the unit and then consider the "failed" test to be passed. A roll of a 1 is a fail only if they are not in combat. This can completely be negated if the Warboss is given the Big Bosspole relic for 20pts which gives the unit fearless. Note: losing combat counts as a morale test so there's 0 chance of using the solar staff in order to potentially win combat and sweep them. Green tide is dangerous; however, it is still just a single unit still. Expect more running than shooting from it and be careful how you structure your own units in order to reduce multi-charges. |
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| OhLongJohnson | Apr 17 2015, 12:54 AM Post #7 |
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Cryptek
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do I understand correctly that you really dont take whipcoils on the wraiths? why? I mean, I understand that you maybe designate them for other purposes, but there are upgrades that are so cheap that its hard to justify not taking them. For me thats shieldvanes & scopes on tomblades and whipcoils on wraiths. |
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| Akar | Apr 17 2015, 06:31 AM Post #8 |
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Destroyer
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I seem to stand alone in the Fact that Wraiths are just a Mediocre unit. I'll start another discussion thread if you really want to know my history with them. They aren't standard in my lists, and are usually the first unit to get dropped when making new ones. That said, in this list they serve a very different purpose. I don't want my opponent to kill them at all. I do that by making them the least appealing target as possible. The Warriors remain the best unit in the entire Codex. I'm not trying to convince anyone of that. In this game, I hope to have some element of control with the Assaults. For each unit that charges, I hope to support it with a unit of Wraiths. Once they are in combat, their entire reason for being in battle is done. The damage will come from other sources. |
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| OhLongJohnson | Apr 17 2015, 01:02 PM Post #9 |
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Cryptek
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I got that you think wraiths arent great. But still, especially in a 4k game there is just no reason to not take whip. Drop an overall of just 2 warriors and you get whips on all wraiths. I guarantee that the whips are gonna have more impact on the battle than the 2 warriors. There might be a situation where killing those few orks at I5 might save you. Keep in mind that 3 wraiths on charge kill an average of about 5 ork boys. (Thats what more than 10 warriors would accomplish on charge.) Killing those 5 ork boys at I5 might save 1-2 warriors in CC, earning the whipcoils pointcost back pretty fast. If you just avoid whipcoils to prevent your opponent from targetting them, then I understand it. (I guess you know your opponent)...but if its because of not wanting to spend the points for whipcoils, I think it doesnt make sense. |
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| Unholyllama | Apr 17 2015, 02:27 PM Post #10 |
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Lord
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The thing with Wraiths at I5 or I2, they only kill so many things. While Wraiths are probably the best assault unit in our codex due to rending and speed (else I would put Flayed Ones in that top spot due to cost), they tarpit a LOT more than then actual wipe out. Wraiths won't do much but tarpit the green tide (which could actually work well in this situation) - especially if you get the charge off. While I agree at 4k points not dropping the less than 18pts per unit for coils seem odd at first, I would agree that it's not really worth it here - however, that's somewhat list tailoring to orks who are plagued with I2 and I1. For the matchup at hand, I would agree that Warriors and Immortlas will probably be the stars of the show. Wraiths could be if used to keep the green tide at bay but if not that, they only other target that fits them would be MegaNobz - which are I1. Bikes have a 4+ save (and jink) and MekGunz are artillery (so shooting is against T7). Every other Ork unit will have a 6+ save unless the player wanted to drop +4ppm for a 4+ save on to a unit and those will get sliced through. I think the current version of the listis solid and I'm looking forward to hearing how things go. |
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| OhLongJohnson | Apr 17 2015, 04:33 PM Post #11 |
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Cryptek
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I do also think that wraiths are gonna do more tarpitting than killing, but isnt their purpose to protect the warriors when both are in CC with a unit of orks? Killing a few orks before they strike the warriors seems well worth it in this context, as you reduce the attacks your warriors are gonna suffer. As said, if you prevent just 1 warrior from getting killed (very likely if you kill 4-5 orks before they strike) you more than made the points back you spend for the whipcoils (on the whole unit of 3 wraiths). Thats why I think it makes no sense skipping them, they are just too cheap and easily earn their points back. |
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| Akar | Apr 17 2015, 05:28 PM Post #12 |
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Destroyer
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Admittedly, I did do some list tailoring, the inclusion of MSS and Res Orbs for example, are stuff I would not normally take. It's a 4k, pure codex, non-apoc game. While I do have a copy of my opponents list, and he has a copy of mine, I expect minor tweaks to be done. Given the size, the planning involved, etc. I expect some tailoring, it's not like we show up expecting pick up games of 4k. My issue with Whip Coils, is that they don't increase the damage output of Wraiths, and they're plenty survivable enough w/o them. I also agree that I could drop 2 Warriors for some Coils. I'd still rather go with the 2 Warriors. They're going to be BS 5, they're going to have a 4+ RP and vs his shooting they'll keep it with Szeras around. If I go first, then I'll even have the option to use Target Priority pretty much insuring I score the most amount of hits. I really don't want to Tarpit the Orks at all. I want them to kill everything they get into combat with. On Turn 1, he's going to have a wall of 20 Flayed Ones, and 10 Tomb Blades preventing him from getting at my Warriors. The Flayed Ones will inflict some serious damage before they get wiped out, if not, no big deal. I will have only lost ~500 pts. My next turn will see 60 Warriors Rapid Firing, charging (With Wraiths) and doing an insane amount of Counter damage. Yes, I will be charging because he can Waaagh! every turn. This will also prevent him from shooting me with his stuff in the back, that I'll barely be bringing on my reserves to deal with. There are too many variables, but this is how I see it going down based on my experience playing against and as Orks. Edited by Akar, Apr 17 2015, 05:30 PM.
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| OhLongJohnson | Apr 17 2015, 11:12 PM Post #13 |
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Cryptek
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either way - your list is scary. I honestly doubt the ork player will have a chance against this mass gauss-spam. I predict destruction of the ork player by turn 4 ;) |
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