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Nasty surprise list (1850 points); deathmark spam
Topic Started: May 11 2015, 01:06 AM (503 Views)
OhLongJohnson
Cryptek
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
So I was thinking: How would a deathmark spam perform? They can cause incredible havoc the turn they arrive via deepstrike and can still do bad things to opponents after that first turn. So I made this decurion list.

DECURION:
Nemesor Zahndrekh

10 warriors
10 warriors
5 immortals (Gauss)
5 tomblades, vanes, scopes, gauss
5 tomblades, vanes, scopes, gauss

6 deathmarks
6 deathmarks
6 deathmarks
6 deathmarks
5 deathmarks

5 flayed ones
5 flayed ones

deathbringer flight:
3 doomscythes


The idea: By turn 2, zahndrekh changes to the "reroll reserve rolls" warlord trait. Then everything just arrives and pops up on the battlefield. The units are small, so mishaps should be unlikely. Now: you try to get the best alfastrike possible with the amount of deathmarks and doomscythes. The flayed ones are for even more distraction and to force your opponent to think about target priority. (you could drop those close to your warriors if the opponent is close enough to charge them...then countercharge with the flayed ones)
Warriors, immortals and tomblades try to get objectives the first turns and give the gauss-fire thats necesary to shred hordes and vehicles. The doomscythes take care of vehicles, other fliers and heavy infantry.
The deathmarks take care of the rest.
If your opponent should decide to go MC-heavy, he will start crying by turn 2.

I know, most of your army isnt on table by turn 1. But I think whats rest (20 warriors, 5 immortals, zahndrekh, 10 tomblades with vanes) is tough enough to survive the first turn shooting, so getting tabled shouldnt be an issue.

I like this list, because it feels so ...evil :D. Deathmarks, flayed ones and doomscythes...
One of the beauties of this list is that it doesnt use vehicles (like akar does often), so the opponents anti vehicle weapons are kinda wasted.
Edited by OhLongJohnson, May 11 2015, 01:09 AM.
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Dawnstrider
Member Avatar
Warrior
[ *  *  * ]
I like it. If it were my list, I would remove the unit of 5 deathmarks and trade the deathbringer flight for a destroyer cult. That way the group of 'marks that are going to go after the high priority targets like wraithknights and riptides can have a destroyer lord for preferred enemy. Give him a scythe and he can tank hunt on his own after the initial drop if you want. With this version you get more gauss and more mobility. Also gives more objective grabbers. Just some food for thought.
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OhLongJohnson
Cryptek
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Dawnstrider
May 11 2015, 05:17 AM
I like it. If it were my list, I would remove the unit of 5 deathmarks and trade the deathbringer flight for a destroyer cult. That way the group of 'marks that are going to go after the high priority targets like wraithknights and riptides can have a destroyer lord for preferred enemy. Give him a scythe and he can tank hunt on his own after the initial drop if you want. With this version you get more gauss and more mobility. Also gives more objective grabbers. Just some food for thought.
It is an interesting idea, and I would love to have destroyers in there...but I'm sceptical because of the destroyer lord...equipped in a not exagerated fashion, it costs as much as a doomscythe, while I would much preferr having a doomscythe than a destroyerlord.

So, with this version I would definitely get more gauss, but not more mobility (whats more mobile than fliers???). More objective grabbers would be nice, but I would lose some "alphastrike" (the doomscythes provide.). Also, I would completely lose antiair!!
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Dawnstrider
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Warrior
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By more mobility I meant that the flyer must move a certain distance and direction and it is not always the best tactical move. There are times you would have preferred the flyer stay where it was and shoot the same target next turn, for example. You movement is somewhat dictated for you. That's what I meant by more mobility. More freedom in your movement would have been a better way to put it. I also like the destroyers because of the JSJ + move through cover means you can jump out of cover, shoot, then jump back in safely. In my mind, anyhow, that maximizes the bonuses from being a Decurion better than the doomscythes. I have only recently ordered my first destroyers though, never actually played with them so I could easily be way off base.
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OhLongJohnson
Cryptek
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Dawnstrider
May 11 2015, 08:40 PM
By more mobility I meant that the flyer must move a certain distance and direction and it is not always the best tactical move. There are times you would have preferred the flyer stay where it was and shoot the same target next turn, for example. You movement is somewhat dictated for you. That's what I meant by more mobility. More freedom in your movement would have been a better way to put it. I also like the destroyers because of the JSJ + move through cover means you can jump out of cover, shoot, then jump back in safely. In my mind, anyhow, that maximizes the bonuses from being a Decurion better than the doomscythes. I have only recently ordered my first destroyers though, never actually played with them so I could easily be way off base.
I understand, and I agree that fliers often have a problem with pointing at the right target.

Dont get me wrong, I think destroyers are among the best units we have...I just think that in this particular list 3 DS contribute more to the list than 3 minimal units of destroyers (I know 3 DS is 480 points and 3 minimal units of destroyers is 360, but if you take into account the tax you pay by taking the dlord, its comparable). The DS give some much needed anti-2+-save (deathmarks help here, but its not optimal) and give some very good antitank...in the end, I dont want to rely purely on gauss unless i have sh**tloads of it (what I dont). Especially low armor value vehicles that are spammed are easier countered with high-strength-low-ap weapons than with gauss. Against a transport heavy list it is very important to crack open the opponents transports when the deathmarks arrive, in order to give them targets to shoot at.

Also doomscythes contribute more to the whole "alphastrike" idea of the list. The basic idea is to cripple the opponents army by turn 2 as much as you can, hopefully enough so that he wont be able to recover.
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Banshee
Lychguard
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You could lower Tomb Blades to 3 per unit and take 3 units of them. I'm not sure about flayed ones eather. Also 5 deathmarks per squad seems more optimal in this scenario.
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OhLongJohnson
Cryptek
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Banshee
May 12 2015, 04:51 AM
You could lower Tomb Blades to 3 per unit and take 3 units of them. I'm not sure about flayed ones eather. Also 5 deathmarks per squad seems more optimal in this scenario.
I might well do the tomblade thing...MSU is mostly better imho!
as for the flayed ones...not so shure either, but they are cheap and its always nice to have some cc-units around, so that the opponent has to take them into account when wanting to charge you.

I was thinking: Maybe make one big unit of flayed ones instead of 2 small ones. Usually I go MSU, but in this case I could iniltrate them just behind my warriors and join zahndrekh by turn2...they would then become a very fearsome CC-unit (like a little deathstar) protecting my warriors.

As for deathmarks: Why do you think units of 5 work better?? I could probably reduce all units to 5 and get one more unit of 5 deathmarks.
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Prot
Member Avatar
Immortal
[ *  *  *  * ]
It's something I thought of but what scares me personally is the hordish armies I play against..... like Orks spread themselves on my deep striking lists, I've got Nid opponents that do this defensive move too. Even some Astra guys blob out on me.

I could see things going really poorly in those scenarios. The list feels like a feast or famine situation. You're going to crush some people and possibly get dominated by the other end of the (non-elite style) armies.
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OhLongJohnson
Cryptek
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Prot
May 12 2015, 02:37 PM
It's something I thought of but what scares me personally is the hordish armies I play against..... like Orks spread themselves on my deep striking lists, I've got Nid opponents that do this defensive move too. Even some Astra guys blob out on me.

I could see things going really poorly in those scenarios. The list feels like a feast or famine situation. You're going to crush some people and possibly get dominated by the other end of the (non-elite style) armies.
it is true that horde will bring you into trouble by just blocking the whole battlefield...but on the other hand I'm not so scared, because they wont be able to block EVERYTHING in just the first 2 turns...and then you just DS the deathmarks close to you own rows...even in this case, deathmarks shred throught hordes with their AP5 rapidfire that wounds on 2+!!!! Dont forget that even without DS, the deathmarks will still do good damage against hordes...its actually a LOT of small arms fire.

Actually, I dont see deathmarks as pure "anti-elite" unit...I think they are good against pretty much everything thats not a tank.
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Banshee
Lychguard
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Well 7-8 is almost optimal against any units. 5 is not enough for tough ones, but you can always DS 2x5. 6 is not enough as single unit, while 2x6 is overkill for me...
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OhLongJohnson
Cryptek
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
What about this corrected list?:

Zahndrekh
10 warriors
10 warriors
5 immortals
3 tomblades, gauss, vanes, scopes
3 tomblades, gauss, vanes, scopes
3 tomblades, beamer, vanes, scopes

5 deathmarks
5 deathmarks
5 deathmarks
5 deathmarks
5 deathmarks
5 deathmarks

10 flayed ones

3 doomscythes

Flayed ones do either infiltrate into a building, stay in DS reserve or hide behind the warriors (taking cover). By turn1, zahndrekh joins those flayed ones to form a little deathstar and protect the warriors.
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Banshee
Lychguard
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I like it.
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Treelamp
Member Avatar
Flayed One
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
Banshee
May 12 2015, 06:35 PM
Well 7-8 is almost optimal against any units. 5 is not enough for tough ones, but you can always DS 2x5. 6 is not enough as single unit, while 2x6 is overkill for me...
Plus boxes come in units of 5, so buying the list is more easily done!

I like it. Of all the units in the Necron army.. of all the units..

Holy crap, I don't think there is a single Necron unit that isn't something I really want to have, at least eventually! Although my first pick is D-Cult (Which I am building/have) and the second coolest is the Deathmarks. Although I didn't really think going a full army of them was something I was going to try, if I had the money later I would certainly not mind.. or proxy with friends.

But unfortunately getting a well rounded force with troops and staples (I don't even own any Blades) is a priority :'(

Could be fun though, planning on playing any games with this list anytime soon?
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OhLongJohnson
Cryptek
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Treelamp
May 13 2015, 04:25 AM
Banshee
May 12 2015, 06:35 PM
Well 7-8 is almost optimal against any units. 5 is not enough for tough ones, but you can always DS 2x5. 6 is not enough as single unit, while 2x6 is overkill for me...
Plus boxes come in units of 5, so buying the list is more easily done!

I like it. Of all the units in the Necron army.. of all the units..

Holy crap, I don't think there is a single Necron unit that isn't something I really want to have, at least eventually! Although my first pick is D-Cult (Which I am building/have) and the second coolest is the Deathmarks. Although I didn't really think going a full army of them was something I was going to try, if I had the money later I would certainly not mind.. or proxy with friends.

But unfortunately getting a well rounded force with troops and staples (I don't even own any Blades) is a priority :'(

Could be fun though, planning on playing any games with this list anytime soon?
It depends...as I said earlier, Im far far away from home at the moment. If I can bring my buddies to vasall with me, then I would try out this list...bud sadly they kinda lost interest in it as they got pounded each time by my armies...shouldnt have made so well balanced armylists xD

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Treelamp
Member Avatar
Flayed One
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
OhLongJohnson
May 13 2015, 02:17 PM
Treelamp
May 13 2015, 04:25 AM
Banshee
May 12 2015, 06:35 PM
Well 7-8 is almost optimal against any units. 5 is not enough for tough ones, but you can always DS 2x5. 6 is not enough as single unit, while 2x6 is overkill for me...
Plus boxes come in units of 5, so buying the list is more easily done!

I like it. Of all the units in the Necron army.. of all the units..

Holy crap, I don't think there is a single Necron unit that isn't something I really want to have, at least eventually! Although my first pick is D-Cult (Which I am building/have) and the second coolest is the Deathmarks. Although I didn't really think going a full army of them was something I was going to try, if I had the money later I would certainly not mind.. or proxy with friends.

But unfortunately getting a well rounded force with troops and staples (I don't even own any Blades) is a priority :'(

Could be fun though, planning on playing any games with this list anytime soon?
It depends...as I said earlier, Im far far away from home at the moment. If I can bring my buddies to vasall with me, then I would try out this list...bud sadly they kinda lost interest in it as they got pounded each time by my armies...shouldnt have made so well balanced armylists xD

I'll see about trying the list against a friend this weekend maybe? We play once a week online if we get a chance, to try out list and, well we're both just trying to re-learn the rules and such. But we've been at 1k pts for the last month or so, and he was suggesting higher points game, so I might be able to get him in for a larger battle.

I'll see what's going on this weekend I guess, and let you know if a battle comes up.

So far I've been fielding destroyer Cults + filler @1k pts, and I have almost tabled him nearly every game, plus nearly every time doubled his VP. But I feel like Necrons are not a very "soft" army to play against, and he was not playing the most optimal armies (rather things he thought were cool), sooooo yeah. But I'd like to see how this runs.
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OhLongJohnson
Cryptek
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would be awesome if you could try out the list!!
Also maybe a quite pleasant change from destroyer cult...at least for him ;)

If playing it, keep in mind that deathmarks are snipers and thus get precision shots on 6es (rolling to hit). This gets forgotten frequently but gets in handy quite often (snipe out special weapons)

finally something completely different: Be careful with tabling your friend all the time...thats exactly how I made my buddies lose interest in playing with me (online). If you should table him again, I would strongly recommend to use funlists after that battle...like triple shards list, stuff like that. Nobody enjoys losing all the time ;)
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Asavar88
Member Avatar
Immortal
[ *  *  *  * ]
To add to the nastiness, what about a Leadership-messing factor?

Zahndrekh

10 warriors
10 warriors

5 immortals

3 tomblades, gauss, vanes, scopes
3 tomblades, gauss, vanes, scopes
3 tomblades, beamer, vanes, scopes

5 deathmarks
5 deathmarks
5 deathmarks

10 flayed ones

Deathbringer Flight (3 Scythes)

Star God (Deceiver)

In range of both the Shard & Scythes, -3 Leadership! Zhandrekh and FOs walk in to say: "BOO!"
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Banshee
Lychguard
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Not enough alfa-strike power here.
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Treelamp
Member Avatar
Flayed One
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
OhLongJohnson
May 14 2015, 05:29 PM
would be awesome if you could try out the list!!
Also maybe a quite pleasant change from destroyer cult...at least for him ;)

If playing it, keep in mind that deathmarks are snipers and thus get precision shots on 6es (rolling to hit). This gets forgotten frequently but gets in handy quite often (snipe out special weapons)

finally something completely different: Be careful with tabling your friend all the time...thats exactly how I made my buddies lose interest in playing with me (online). If you should table him again, I would strongly recommend to use funlists after that battle...like triple shards list, stuff like that. Nobody enjoys losing all the time ;)
Precision shots are just pick the target, right? That ignores the "closest model first" rule then also?

And yeah, it's certainly something to consider lol. We were trying to gear up for a tournament we wanted to attend together, and we both are just getting back into the game, so the "same-list" thing I was doing was mostly because I was trying to get use to what I am planning on playing at the event (Which we may not attend, with building/painting timing restrictions).

But yeah, playing other armies is certainly something I am about; I actually played a Resurgence of Mephrit Dynasty list, from that one issue of White Dwarf, which was a SUUUPPPERRR tight fit for the 1k points we were playing. That was the game he shot a monolith like 8 times with Metla/Lascannon equivalents and failed to even glance it, which was it's own bit of funny. But also I want to start playing 'Nids against him too, and I won't be nearly as powerful with 'Nids, because I am not going to power-game the list, rather take what I think looks fun, so it'll be quite a bit less powerful; Basic 'Nids just don't compare to basic 'Cron list.

I haven't looked at the points cost, or tooling the list around yet, but have you considered the option of taking a Cryptek with Veil with one of the D-Mark units for the re-deploy chance? Or would it mostly not be a good idea? Then you may want a single large unit so you could improve the RP (with the Cryptek) for survivability and general kill potential with 2x deep strikes. Perhaps that would simply be a better "side" choice in a different army rather than an army like this where you're planning this sort of MSU with D-marks.
Edited by Treelamp, May 15 2015, 07:49 AM.
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OhLongJohnson
Cryptek
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Treelamp
May 15 2015, 07:43 AM
OhLongJohnson
May 14 2015, 05:29 PM
would be awesome if you could try out the list!!
Also maybe a quite pleasant change from destroyer cult...at least for him ;)

If playing it, keep in mind that deathmarks are snipers and thus get precision shots on 6es (rolling to hit). This gets forgotten frequently but gets in handy quite often (snipe out special weapons)

finally something completely different: Be careful with tabling your friend all the time...thats exactly how I made my buddies lose interest in playing with me (online). If you should table him again, I would strongly recommend to use funlists after that battle...like triple shards list, stuff like that. Nobody enjoys losing all the time ;)
Precision shots are just pick the target, right? That ignores the "closest model first" rule then also?

And yeah, it's certainly something to consider lol. We were trying to gear up for a tournament we wanted to attend together, and we both are just getting back into the game, so the "same-list" thing I was doing was mostly because I was trying to get use to what I am planning on playing at the event (Which we may not attend, with building/painting timing restrictions).

But yeah, playing other armies is certainly something I am about; I actually played a Resurgence of Mephrit Dynasty list, from that one issue of White Dwarf, which was a SUUUPPPERRR tight fit for the 1k points we were playing. That was the game he shot a monolith like 8 times with Metla/Lascannon equivalents and failed to even glance it, which was it's own bit of funny. But also I want to start playing 'Nids against him too, and I won't be nearly as powerful with 'Nids, because I am not going to power-game the list, rather take what I think looks fun, so it'll be quite a bit less powerful; Basic 'Nids just don't compare to basic 'Cron list.

I haven't looked at the points cost, or tooling the list around yet, but have you considered the option of taking a Cryptek with Veil with one of the D-Mark units for the re-deploy chance? Or would it mostly not be a good idea? Then you may want a single large unit so you could improve the RP (with the Cryptek) for survivability and general kill potential with 2x deep strikes. Perhaps that would simply be a better "side" choice in a different army rather than an army like this where you're planning this sort of MSU with D-marks.
as for the shard list: While it may be fun, you lose big part of the efectiveness of the list. 240 points in deathmarks is just MUCH more effective than the deceiver...its just too much points to spend into a trick, and as banshee said: you lose the alfastrike, which is very very important. I´d really just go deathmark spam and dont try to get a "deathstar" in there

yep, precision shots let you pick target instead of allocating the wound to closest model. So you can snipe out special weapons and special characters (more difficult due to look out sir) that your opponent hides in the back rows. with 10 shots you are looking at about 2 precision shots, which are about 2 woundings (on first turn arrival). Generally enough to snipe out at least 1 special weapon or maybe that powersword-sargeant.

As for the cryptek: Firstly, Im not a big fan of spending too many points in HQ unless it serves a very specific role. Veiltek costs about 90 points..with these points you can just get in 5 deathmarks which is probably more effective.
Secondly, dont forget the TAX you have to pay in a decurion for a cryptek. You would have to get in a royal court, which means another overlord and a lord...so you are looking at at LEAST 230 points for getting in a veiltek (with overlord and lord bare!!)...thats just too many points and will lower the effectiveness of the list drastically. My tip is to keep it simple. (I think there are rare cases where taking a royal court in decurion is really worth it)
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