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Hot Mess of a List? 2000 First List for 8th Edition; I miss my veil of Darkness - curious alternative
Topic Started: Jun 14 2017, 06:06 PM (520 Views)
M0NS_1914
Canoptek Scarab
[ *  * ]
Alright, so I've sort of been following the releases related to 8th edition thus far. I haven't really reviewed the rules in detail and I've honestly probably hung myself with my own rope of ignorance but, hey, why not throw living metal against the wall and see what sticks and/or murders.

I used to play a veil of Darkness army a long time ago at the tail end of 5th edition but it does not look like that is totally possible right now. This is my attempt to create a contemporary list in the spirit of flying around the board without transports.

This may not ultimately not be viable and if you don't think it is, please let me know. In fact, all thoughts, opinions, and criticism are welcome because, deceiver knows, I need it.

HQ

Orikan the Diviner
- Taken for the 6 inch 5++ invulnerable save and the 3 inch benefit to RP rolls, the army will likely bunch together depending on the Deceiver roll to move units. He's also C'Tan like in CC once he's empowered.

ELITES

Deceiver Shard
- The key stone of the entire list & the source of the movement teleportation that I was hoping to emulate. He is responsible for moving half of the infantry to meet with the other half. The powers seem decent as well & he can throw some weight in CC.

Deathmarks (10)
- Come in from deep strike to support the units that move with the Deceiver. Can go after characters or anything that needs some mortal wounds.

Flayed Ones (15)
- Come in from deep strike to support the death marks and the units that move with the deceiver


FAST ATTACK

Destroyers (3)
Gauss Cannon, For mobile and accurately needed high Ap and medium damage shots. will hang out with the annihilation barges for shooting support.


TROOPS

Warriors (20)
- big block of warriors that are a strong contender for being moved by the deceiver shard to meet up with the Flayed ones and the Deathmarks

Immortals (10)
- Gauss Blaster for needed AP. Also a contender to move with the Deceiver elements depending on opponent's army and dice rolls

HEAVY SUPPORT

Annihilation Barge
- Tesla Cannon, Supports the moving portions of the army, mostly anti infantry but death by mass dice is always possible.

Annihilation Barge
- Tesla Cannon, Supports the moving portions of the army, mostly anti infantry anti infantry but death by mass dice is always possible

Heavy Destroys (3)
- Sit back and support the moving parts of the army. Best source of High Damage and High AP


1,999

PLAN OF ACTION

So the idea is too suddenly and unexpectedly concentrate on one flank of the opponents army and have a turn of carnage and see what happens. A lot depends on the roll for the Deceiver shard move. I need to roll at least a 2 on a D3 for the army to really work, but the idea is to move the Deceiver, Orikan, and hopefully one infantry unit in the form of the Warriors or the immortals and to meet up with the death marks and the flayed ones who are deep striking in. If I get lucky and roll a 3 on the deceiver roll, than the immortals can come too.

Suddenly, that is up to 6 units knocking on my opens door with most of them benefiting from a 5++ invulnerable from all attacks and an improved RP roll. In the following turns the enemy could potentially be suffering a minus 2 to moral tests to enemy units from the combined impact of the deceiver and flayed ones.

Destroyers, Heavy Destroyers and Annihilation Barges should be quick enough and have the range to support the moving elements of the army with a mass of high powered tesla shots & medium to heavily damaging Gauss weaponry.

Again it seems fun to me, but maybe I have no idea what I'm getting myself into. What do you all think?





Edited by M0NS_1914, Jun 14 2017, 06:57 PM.
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Olfgund
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Praetorian
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I want to try something similar now that reserve rolls are gone. Our very own drop pod assault. I considered monolith for that too, even if it is quite costly.
Always best if Orikan can stay within 6" of the warrior so you hope to roll at least 2 units to hitchhike with the deceiver


Force Org: 3 heavy destroyers together is a heavy support choice, not fast attack. I don't know what detachment you are aiming at (you don't have 3 troops to form a battalion) but your list would have 4 heavy support units. Too many heavies for a battalion, too many elite for a spearhead. You would need to use auxiliary (and lose command point) to form a detachment
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M0NS_1914
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Thanks for the catch regarding the heavy destroyers Olfgund. To compensate, I replaced an annihilation barge, converted the heavy gauss cannons for tesla cannons on the two remaining annihilation barges, and dropped a single flayed one for 3 destroys with Gauss cannons.

Should have 3 heavy support choices now for the needed command points.
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Quinten87
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Lychguard
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It looks interesting I suspect the Deceiver will make some interesting combos possible. Remember you can re-roll the D3 with a command point to make sure you get at least 2 units redeployed (it says any roll before or during the game).
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M0NS_1914
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Thanks Quinten87!

Really appreciate the command advice. I had no idea that a re-roll could be possible. It's definitely something I will use in the future. The list suddenly doesn't feel quite as random now.

Big cheers!

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M0NS_1914
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All right, so apparently when I made my earlier list, I had no idea what I was doing, especially with with Command Points. Since having a command point is so important to insure at least 2 units move with the Deceiver, I wanted to give it a second look. Anti tank/ Monsters were also an issue.

2000 VANGUARD (+1 CP)

- Anrakyr
Thanks to the Deceiver will have a chance to use all abilities on first turn of the game, including vehicle control. Meant to buff and support the warriors/ Praetorians/Tesla immortals. Will make enemy counterattack potentially painful.

- Deceiver
Makes the whole "bomb" possible. Will support the warriors and Inkier

- 10 Deathmarks
Since I'm unlikely to roll a 3 for the Deceiver I wanted a guaranteed unit to move & support the warriors/ Anakyr.

- 9 Praetorians
Rapid reaction force that can shoot and CQC well with Anakyr's support. Will move to support the troops/ Anakyr.

- Stalker w/ Gauss Cannon
Makes the army shoot better, particularly the Doomsday arks.

- 18 Warriors
Focus of Deceiver Bomb. Bodies for rapid firing and my general response unit.

- 9 Gauss Immortals
Meq and Teq response Could bomb with the Warriors and Anakyr depending on Deceiver roll.

- 8 Tesla Immortals
Mostly for Horde consideration. Likely will hold an objective if able to Deceiver bomb aggressively.

- Doomsday Ark
Anti tank/monsters with possible horde applications. could hang back and hold an objective

- Doomsday Ark
See above

1999 Total Points

List works mostly the same except that I have added a lot more anti-tank fire power in the form of two Doomsday arks, and replaced the flayed ones with Praetorians to benefit from Anakyr. I was having some difficulty trying to get flayed ones to work. They are so slow and can't do much the turn they land unless you get a successful charge which is fairly unlikely unless you buff them with an Overlord or a special character.

I really like Orikan, but once I got rid of the flayed ones i found that he wasn't the right HQ for the army and replaced him with Anakyr once I settled on Praetorians. Speaking of Praetorians, I wasn't convinced at first until I realized that Anakyr can give them +1 attack and MWBD for Rods of the Covenant. Shooting at destroyer strength and having 3 attacks each with -3 armor seems fairly good, the only problem is making sure that Anakyr can keep up with the Pretorians but the Deceiver can potentially solve this with teleportation.

As always, all comments are welcome. Thanks in advance for all the help.
Edited by M0NS_1914, Jul 12 2017, 06:27 AM.
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Mechanicus_Adept
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Flayed One
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i have no idea if you fight against a lot of high ap weapon units, but adding a cryptek somewhere to buff the units on foot is not a bad idea to have. otherwise the list looks good on paper.
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M0NS_1914
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Much obliged Mechanic_ Adept. Really appreciate your opinion. I also felt and really wanted to put a cyptek in but didn't know how to do it without pulling too many points from the army's meaty bits. The best I could come up with to pay the 100+ point cryptek was:

Remove Doomsday Ark and replace with Stalker with heat ray (saving 32 points)

Remove a Deathmark (saving 20 points and the unit drops to 9 Deathmarks in total)

Remove 3 Immortals from Tesla (saves 51 points and the unit drops to 5 Immortals in total)

Total points saved 103 points + 1 point extra (1999) = 104 points

This is enough to buy a cryptek and turn the army into a battalion for two more Command points.

Which list seems preferable?

LIST # 1 - Vanguard +1 CP (2000)
Anrakyr

Deceiver
9 Praetorian
10 Deathmarks
Stalker - Gauss Cannon

9 Immortals - Gauss
8 Immortals - Tesla
18 Warriors

Doomsday Ark
Doomsday Ark

Total = 1,999

LIST #2 - Battalion +3 CP (2000)

Anrakyr
Cryptek - staff of light

Deceiver
9 Deathmarks
9 Pretorians
Stalker - Gauss Cannon
Stalker - Heat Ray

18 Warriors
9 Immortals - Gauss
5 Immortals - Tesla

Doomsday Ark

Total = 2,000

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Mechanicus_Adept
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Flayed One
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I would go with list #2.
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QuantumMottle
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Just to clarify with the Command Points, if your force is battle-forged I.e. Completely made up of legal detachments, you get three CPs base. Any extra from the detachments are on top of that. So a force consisting just of a Vanguard detachment will have 4 CPs, and a battalion will have 6, not 1/3 as I think you were implying before. Don't know if that alters how you build list.
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deth110
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Lychguard
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If you did like the idea of Flayed Ones, I would have a look at Kutlakh the World Killer from the FW index. He lets all infantry within 12" advance and still charge. This nearly doubles the movement of Flayed Ones and any other unit you want to run up the field. While he is expensive he's also a beast in close combat and won't be standing on the sidelines cheering everyone on.
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Death1942
Immortal
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M0NS_1914
Jul 15 2017, 12:05 AM
LIST #2 - Battalion +3 CP (2000)

Anrakyr
Cryptek - staff of light

Deceiver
9 Deathmarks
9 Pretorians
Stalker - Gauss Cannon
Stalker - Heat Ray

18 Warriors
9 Immortals - Gauss
5 Immortals - Tesla

Doomsday Ark

Total = 2,000

I like your second list quite a bit. I am not really sold on Deathmarks, I think they just aren't worth the cost for a zero AP weapon (mortal wounds are still nice though).

I think this list might go a bit better:

Battalion (1997)
Cryptek
Orikan

9x Guass Immortals
5x Gauss Immortals
18x Warriors

Deceiver
9x Praetorians
Stalker with Guass
Stalker with Heat Ray

2x Destroyers 1x Heavy Destroyer

Doomsday Ark


Gauss immortals are a much bigger threat than the Tesla (unless you go 10 and sit them infront of an overlord). I think Anrakyr is a bit expensive for what you get from your list. I feel like he is better in a much larger CC focused force.

I really rate destroyer units, 2x normal and 1x heavy put out a lot of hurt and are insanely hard to remove from the board. 10" move gives them a huge threat range for grabbing objectives too.

If you aren't sold on the destroyers have a look at 5x wraiths for 190 points. That way you now have a few options for the Deceiver teleport blob:

Warriors with Orikan behind them (Orikan is a beast in combat once he awakens and gives them the usual crytpek buffs)

Wraiths with the cryptek (or Orikan). 3+ invul is actually insane, yes they can't charge on turn 1 but they can still move and 5 wraiths are not going to be wiped out before they get off the turn 2 charge.

Orikan and the praetorians. Similar to the wraiths unit in that it is a crazy threat and hard to remove.

Finally if you roll like a god and get 3 units teleport then go the wraiths, Orikan and the praetorians. Suddenly you have a giant melee blob sitting 12" away from your opponent and ready to wreck face on turn 2.


Another thing to consider is scarabs for smite screens and objective grabbing. 39 points for 3 bases is well worth it if you are having issues with psykers.
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Olfgund
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I’m not getting the benefits gained by pairing Orikan or cryptek to wraiths or praetorians

All of the benefits given by Orikan affect units of Sautekh units (or any “dynasty” faction for common crypteks), Praetorians have no dynasty faction. Wraiths do not have RP and already have 3++ save. Orikan or cryptek do not affect them and you would lose those characters rapidly if you teleport them Turn 1 near to your enemy’s line.


Cryptek and warriors, now this is good
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Death1942
Immortal
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Olfgund
Jul 18 2017, 02:01 PM
I’m not getting the benefits gained by pairing Orikan or cryptek to wraiths or praetorians

All of the benefits given by Orikan affect units of Sautekh units (or any “dynasty” faction for common crypteks), Praetorians have no dynasty faction. Wraiths do not have RP and already have 3++ save. Orikan or cryptek do not affect them and you would lose those characters rapidly if you teleport them Turn 1 near to your enemy’s line.


Cryptek and warriors, now this is good
Orikan is there because when he powers up he turns into a combat beast. Basically he can be your counter charge unit or screening the flanks of your wraiths or praetorians.

Also taking him gives you options on the teleport such as dropping in different units depending on your opponents forces and deployment.
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deth110
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Lychguard
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Orikan is just way too many points for what youd be using him for. A squad of lychguard would serve as a counter charge unit much better for nearly the same amount of points. But at that point you might just want to take the nightbringer. Being able to get him in someones face by turn 2 is huge. And you can screen him with the wraith to be sure he stays safe. But either way there are much better options than orikan for close combat.
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Olfgund
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Praetorian
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Also, at the time the deceiver's redeploy power is used, Orikan is still tinykan and might stay that for a few turns. I wouldn't count on an early transformation as a viable strategy. Your opponent will go after him to get first blood, remove a bufffer and prevent transformation.
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M0NS_1914
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Wow these are really awesome responses everyone! I really appreciate all the time and attention the the forum has provided and I know for a fact that I would not get the same kind of continuous consideration from anywhere else.

I wanted to let you all know that I've been tinkering. It's fairly minor in terms of the choices but I think that it has a fairly decent impact on the lists that I posted thus far. I have found that a Deceiver bomb type list is an internally conflict ridden beast that is often at war with itself because it must balance the desire to go first without over specializing and running into a bad match up (aka 10 lychguard and a Nightscythe are stopped by 150 points of conscripts). Below you will find my attempt to make a Deceiver type list that can still take advantage of an Alpha strike but can also still be effective if I need to play defense or (lamentations) I don't go first.

FIRE AND FORGET DECEIVER BOMB - 2000 Vanguard +1 CP

HQ
- Deceiver -Warlord (yes I know he's not an HQ choice but he might as well be one in this list)
- Cryptek - Staff of Light

So I know that there was a lot of support for a second HQ choice but I don't think that is effective for two reasons. The first reason is that an HQ choice adds another unit to the army which reduces your chance to go first, and a Deceiver bomb by its very nature will cause your army to split up into multiple groups. This makes it hard for an HQ to use it's area buff effectively unless it becomes the subject of a Deceiver move, which reduces firepower as you could have moved a big unit of warriors or immortals instead.

Because all bound lists require an HQ I went with a cheap cryptek that will likely support the big group of warriors as they move up the field. In the event that I don't go first or I need to stack up my army for an assault horde, The Cryptek can be a boon to multiple Troops.

TROOPS
- 10 Immortals -Gauss
- 10 Immortals -Gauss
- 19 Warriors - Gauss

Unless I'm trying to alpha strike a horde gun line, the two units of Immortals will likely be the units I choose to Deceiver move. Not only do they have a smaller footprint for morale and placement reasons, but they are tougher and shoot harder than warriors do. If I can't go first, I can either stack these units together with cryptek support or I can Deceiver move onto objectives that wouldn't normally be controlled until turn 2. Because of their solid strength guns, Immortals can be a threat to everything thing on the board toughness 8 and lower.

ELITES
10 Deathmarks
9 Praetorians - Rod
Triarch Stalker - Gauss

The Elites in my deceiver list are there to support the other units of the army and make them more effective with buffs or raw firepower. The triarch stalker is there to enhance Doomsday arks while the death marks and the praetorians are there to support the moving elements of the army (the immortals).

Due to the fact that Immortals are splitting off from the rest of the army, I needed unit choices that could not only keep up with them, but perform a task that Immortals aren't as effective at. I know that Deathmarks are probably the least point efficient unit in the army, but they have the benefit of being able to keep up with the Immortals, can target characters that make the immortals job more difficult (apothecaries, commissars, guard officers), and can intercept deep strikers. Again, because I need to keep the number of units in my army low, I cannot take throw away units of scarabs as this would inversely make alpha strike less likely.

Praetorians have been selected because they can move relatively quickly and have the ability to assault, which immortals are terrible at. While Praetorians are not as effective at shooting as destroyers are, they are nearly twice as cheap with gun and assault profile that is similar enough that I am willing to value quantity over quality. They will target Teq, vehicles, and can sweep up the damaged units that the Immortals leave behind. On the defensive they can either counter attack or objective hunt toward the end of the game due to their speed.

HEAVY SUPPORT
- Doomsday Ark
- Doomsday Ark

Swiss army knife heavy support choice that can handle more situations than heavy destroyers. They can either hang back and shoot my opponent's heavy support choices or help the warriors move up the board if I am up against a gun line.

FINAL THOUGHTS

The main benefit of this list is that it has fairly independent parts that spread out and work reasonable well or can form up and derive some benefit as well. It's scrappy and probably has just enough movement potential to keep an opponent guessing and slightly off balance while still able to combat horde or assault type lists . A traditional Necron Phalanx of bodies and cyrpteks is probably more efficient in the long run, but if you're like me and you like to move your units into unexpected places and frustrate your opponent then I think that this type of Deceiver list will work in more situations than my previous list.
Edited by M0NS_1914, Jul 25 2017, 06:21 PM.
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Death1942
Immortal
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M0NS_1914
Jul 25 2017, 06:08 PM


ELITES
10 Deathmarks
9 Praetorians - Rod
Triarch Stalker - Gauss

The Elites in my deceiver list are there to support the other units of the army and make them more effective with buffs or raw firepower. The triarch stalker is there to enhance Doomsday arks while the death marks and the praetorians are there to support the moving elements of the army (the immortals).

Due to the fact that Immortals are splitting off from the rest of the army, I needed unit choices that could not only keep up with them, but perform a task that Immortals aren't as effective at. I know that Deathmarks are probably the least point efficient unit in the army, but they have the benefit of being able to keep up with the Immortals, can target characters that make the immortals job more difficult (apothecaries, commissars, guard officers), and can intercept deep strikers. Again, because I need to keep the number of units in my army low, I cannot take throw away units of scarabs as this would inversely make alpha strike less likely.

Praetorians have been selected because they can move relatively quickly and have the ability to assault, which immortals are terrible at. While Praetorians are not as effective at shooting as destroyers are, they are nearly twice as cheap with gun and assault profile that is similar enough that I am willing to value quantity over quality. They will target Teq, vehicles, and can sweep up the damaged units that the Immortals leave behind. On the defensive they can either counter attack or objective hunt toward the end of the game due to their speed.

Can't fault you on the stalker choice, that is the best job for them with that reroll 1s buff.

In terms of the Praetorians I think the Lychguard are actually better. They can effectively hurt tanks and other big nasty models (something we have an issue with in the army overall). Plus they are cheaper all around, the only downside is they only move 5" but that is the point of the Deceiver trick, they should never have to walk across the board ever.

You are spending 200 points on that Deathmarks squad with the intention of helping out the immortals. I say ditch that squad and pay 201 for 2x destroyers and 1x heavy destroyer. 3 destroyers with reanimation is almost impossible to remove from the board, that unit fires 4 str 5 -3ap d3 shots and 1 str 9 -4ap d6 shot. Even against infantry units that is going to do some serious damage and they can easily keep up with the immortals. Destroyers are insane value with a 10" move, fly and never having issues with heavy weapons.

I think if you grabbed the Lychguard and the destroyers you would still have a fairly independent army. The best thing about the Deceiver teleport is you can grab any one of your units from anywhere on the board for it. Roll a 1 for the teleport? No worries, you deployed your entire army properly expecting to not go first or get the full teleport off anyway. Grab the Lychguard and shove them in the enemies face, or if you don't want to do that use the Deceiver teleport as a simple redeployment and rejig a unit in your battle line.
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deth110
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Lychguard
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Also a note on the heavy destroyers. Units don't have to fire at the same targets anymore. This means you could have your heavy destroyer fire at a tank while the others fire at infantry.
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