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| 2250 point tournament list | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Aug 7 2017, 08:22 PM (849 Views) | |
| Quinten87 | Aug 7 2017, 08:22 PM Post #1 |
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Lychguard
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As stated in the topic this is a list for a decently large tournament (something like 40+ spots) so please be very critical if you see flaws: Battalion: CCB, TC, WS CCB, TC, WS 10 Immortals, Tesla 10 Immortals, Tesla 10 Immortals, Tesla Spearhead: Cryptek, SoL AB, TC AB, TC Pylon, GE, Teleporter Outrider: CCB, TC, WS 5 Scarabs 6 Scarabs 3 Scarabs 3 Scarabs Super Heavy Auxillary: Gauss Pylon 8 CP 15 Drops 2248pts Edited by Quinten87, Aug 9 2017, 05:30 AM.
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| Quinten87 | Aug 15 2017, 03:19 AM Post #21 |
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Lychguard
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With the recent FAQ I've found command barges to be really good. They are very fast, hit decently hard in cc, and can buff my Immortals. I've found that my regular overlords essentially just sit back and use MWBD in about 2/3 of the games I play. If you haven't noticed I have a cryptek. I've played warrior blobs for my first dozen games or so and found that they are just too hit and miss and miss way too often against good lists since they can wipe out 20 warriors in one turn. Obviously, these lists can wipe 10 Immortals but the Immortals hit harder from farther away and therefore make their points back a lot faster. I would consider dropping the scarab units to min size but don't see what I could get for the remaining points that would be more valuable than the scarabs I just dropped. The scarabs are essentially for screening the barges and having bigger units means my opponent has to chew through more scarabs before getting at barges. Destroyers are fairly overpriced this edition, I'm really not sure how a night scythe fits this list, and I'm not sure what else I would drop to get a Tesseract Ark. Plus you would want Tesla on the Ark as the GC is far too expensive for what it does. If I thought of something effective and important to spend 91 points on I would definitely consider dropping the scarabs but as I said before I just don't know if it's worth it. I might drop 2 to get teleportation on the pylons. |
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| Banshee | Aug 19 2017, 04:15 PM Post #22 |
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Lychguard
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You made a math about it, right? Were both gauss and tesla buffed, unbuffed, or only tesla buffed in your calculations? Plus a note on Sentry Pylon - with GE it has awful BS against ground forces on a deep strike - 5+. Edited by Banshee, Aug 19 2017, 06:41 PM.
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| Quinten87 | Aug 21 2017, 02:49 AM Post #23 |
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Lychguard
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Yes, but they have BS 3+ vs. fly targets. You get the option to deep strike and I would only do it when it was a good idea. I did make a math post about them in 7th edition and at that point, it was quite clear gauss was better. In my opinion, both guns got buffed but Tesla was buffed more. In a list without MWBD a mix is probably good with Tesla being slightly better but with MWBD Tesla is pretty much always better. Anyways I've played some practice games and I have to admit that I'm seeing lots of vehicles. I'm thinking of swapping out 4 scarabs and the AB for a DA. Thoughts? |
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| deth110 | Aug 21 2017, 04:06 AM Post #24 |
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Lychguard
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I think either a doomsday ark or a some heavy destroyers are a great idea. Its always a good idea to have something you know can do some damage despite your opponent. |
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| Death1942 | Aug 21 2017, 05:01 AM Post #25 |
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Immortal
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My experience in 8th has been vehicle spam is everywhere. Transports are so good now that they can charge so even the humble rhino is well worth the points paid. My local meta definitely requires me to invest heavily in lots of AT shots so I would say grab a doomsday ark or possibly some heavy destroyers. |
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| Quinten87 | Aug 21 2017, 05:21 AM Post #26 |
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Lychguard
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So new list: Battalion: CCB, TC, WS CCB, TC, WS 10 Immortals, Tesla 10 Immortals, Tesla 10 Immortals, Tesla Spearhead: Cryptek, SoL Doomsday Ark Pylon, GE Pylon, GE Outrider: CCB, TC, WS 4 Scarabs 4 Scarabs 4 Scarabs 3 Scarabs Super Heavy Auxillary: Gauss Pylon 8 CP 15 Drops 2250pts |
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| Banshee | Aug 21 2017, 06:12 AM Post #27 |
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Lychguard
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Actually Heavy Destroyers could be better here for a heavy weapon shots redundancy. You will have one more target for heavy shooting.
Edited by Banshee, Aug 21 2017, 06:13 AM.
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| deth110 | Aug 21 2017, 04:23 PM Post #28 |
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Lychguard
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I like this list a lot more. I think the benefit of having AT weapons will be huge. |
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| Quinten87 | Aug 21 2017, 04:31 PM Post #29 |
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Lychguard
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I get what you're saying but 2 reasons prevent me from agreeing this is a good idea: 1. I would have to take out 2 more scarabs 2. Generally, in my experience, if the enemy is able to shoot any quantity of heavy weapons at your heavy destroyers they are dead. Therefore you need to keep them out of range/LoS of heavy weapons defeating the target saturation purpose. A doomsday ark is much more survivable and it's not like I don't have other targets for my opponent to fire low damage shots at. Edited by Quinten87, Aug 21 2017, 04:32 PM.
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| Banshee | Aug 21 2017, 07:25 PM Post #30 |
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Lychguard
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Don't you think that your Sentry Pylons would be removed even easier? |
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| Failed Charge | Aug 21 2017, 07:34 PM Post #31 |
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Canoptek Scarab
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Pylons should be deep striking with heat rays for all the anti tank where and when you need it. Else they will be targeted early and often. |
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| Quinten87 | Aug 22 2017, 12:35 AM Post #32 |
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Lychguard
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They are often too far away. They get an extra 12" of range and can often out-range things. Plus a sentry pylon is 150pts for 8 T7 regenerating wounds and Heavy Destroyers are 225pts for 9 T5 regenerating wounds. Both are about equally durable in my experience but both units will usually die after being wounded by 3-5 lascannons depending on rolls. Regardless my point was you want to keep them away from heavy weapons not that they die too easily. A Sentry Pylon deepstriking with heat rays is an extra 25 pts over my build, is worse than a GE against flyers, not that much better on the turn it arrives against T6/T8 vehicles, and will almost certainly be killed as it is 18"away from enemy lines. This is assuming your opponent didn't take screens and made you deepstrike outside 18". Against T7 vehicles that are on the ground (this is, albeit, a very common vehicle type) they are better. I think they are probably a bit more effective all things considered but I'm not sure 25pts is justified. So I've played a test game and the list is working well but getting the +1 to the first turn roll is pretty key. Thus I've reduced my number of scarab units: Battalion: CCB, TC, WS CCB, TC, WS 10 Immortals, Tesla 10 Immortals, Tesla 10 Immortals, Tesla Spearhead: Cryptek, SoL Doomsday Ark Pylon, GE Pylon, GE Outrider: CCB, TC, WS 5 Scarabs 5 Scarabs 5 Scarabs Super Heavy Auxillary: Gauss Pylon 8 CP 14 Drops 2250pts Edited by Quinten87, Aug 22 2017, 12:36 AM.
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| Death1942 | Aug 22 2017, 02:16 AM Post #33 |
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Immortal
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Looks really solid. You could take a scarab off of each unit to make a 4th unit. Only do that if you find you need to space out your chaff a bit and cover more of your characters or screen your units from combat.
Edited by Death1942, Aug 22 2017, 02:17 AM.
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| Quinten87 | Aug 22 2017, 04:06 AM Post #34 |
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Lychguard
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This is what I changed. I originally had 4 units of scarabs but have been screwed twice now with being 1 unit off from going first. |
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| Banshee | Aug 22 2017, 01:14 PM Post #35 |
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Lychguard
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Is those +1 to roll house rule, or was it FAQed recently? Actually my math says that GE is only marginally better when: you shoot at Hard to hit Flyer with T6- or T8 from range 19+ after moving or DSing. At all the rest situations HC is better and sometimes by far. So there are only 2 advantages of GE - price and range. Consider this. Edited by Banshee, Aug 22 2017, 05:50 PM.
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| Quinten87 | Aug 23 2017, 12:00 AM Post #36 |
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Lychguard
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I was considering both doing what they really will be doing in a game. The Gauss Annihilator has to deep strike since it is only worth the cost inside 18". Thus it is fair to assume it is hitting on 4's. The GE will have probably not moved nor deep striked. Here's some math against T6/T7/T8. I'm assuming no saves but since they are the same AP it won't affect which is better: T6 (fly): GE 2 *25/36*3.5=4.86 Damage on average GA 3.5*2/6*4.5=5.25 Damage on average (I'm approximating 2 dice rolling the highest as being an average of 4.5. This is rounded up but is a pretty good approximation.) T6 (no-fly): GE 2*5/12*3.5=2.9 Damage on average. Obviously, the GA will be the same T7 (fly): GE 2 *10/18*3.5=3.89 Damage on average GA 3.5*2/6*4.5=5.25 Damage on average (I'm approximating 2 dice rolling the highest as being an average of 4.5. This is rounded up but is a pretty good approximation.) T7 (no-fly): GE 2/3*3.5=2.3 Damage on average. Obviously, the GA will be the same T8 (fly): GE 2 *10/18*3.5=3.89 Damage on average GA 3.5/4*4.5=3.94 Damage on average (I'm approximating 2 dice rolling the highest as being an average of 4.5. This is rounded up but is a pretty good approximation.) T8 (no-fly): GE 2/3*3.5=2.3 Damage on average. Obviously, the GA will be the same The hard to hit rule tilts the advantage towards the GE against T6, T8 and helps equalize it against T7. So I think we agree? GE is better against flyers, generally, (things with hard to hit) and the GA isn't that much better against T6/T8 on the turn it arrives which is exactly what I said. Plus situations with 3.89 and 3.94 (or numbers with less than .5 difference) are not really going to result in noticeable in game differences. Plus as I stated previously the GA numbers will be inflated slightly by my approximation. Regardless it doesn't really matter at this point since the tournament is Saturday so I can only switch out for models I have. The tournament uses the ITC format. So all troops get Ob Sec, the +1 to hit rule, and flyers can't hold objectives. These are being released as official GW rules for some matched play scenarios sometime in December (I believe). Change to the list as my Doomsday Ark is not painted and I don't think I'll have time anymore to get it ready: Battalion: CCB, TC, WS CCB, TC, WS 10 Immortals, Tesla 10 Immortals, Tesla 10 Immortals, Tesla Spearhead: Cryptek, SoL 3 Heavy Destroyers Pylon, GE Pylon, GE Outrider: CCB, TC, WS 5 Scarabs 4 Scarabs 4 Scarabs Super Heavy Auxillary: Gauss Pylon 8 CP 14 Drops 2269pts (this was miscounted to 2249 in the original post) Edited by Quinten87, Aug 25 2017, 03:53 AM.
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| Banshee | Aug 23 2017, 05:24 AM Post #37 |
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Lychguard
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Actually i don't think that Heat Cannon (Not Gauss Annihilator) worth it only inside 18 range. 185 point is only 23% more then 150. In a lot of scenarious difference in damage is more than 23% (not only inside 18 range). And if a unit lives until second shooting (and it can - if not placed inside 18 range) - difference becomes even more (Heat Cannon gains BS, flyer might have to fly (because of minimum movement range) into 18 range). I don't even say that with 36 range you might not need to DS it. You overweight that 4.5 against 3.5 damage too much. 4.5 only 28.6% better than 3.5, while not DSing (starting out of 18 range) against Hard to hit is 50% better, and not DSing against normal targets is 33.(3)% better. Outside of range Heat Cannon with DS looks more versatile... and if you get that nasty annoying T8 Flyer against you - you allways can one-shot it with Gauss Pylon. I would give Heat Cannons a try in your test games if you still have time for them. You can even mix them - one with GE and one with HC. After all, you can even take the third one in place of Heavy Destroyers. That would be much more point effective. I guess 3 Pylons with HC can dish out nice damage even outside 18 range. Or you could take a Stalker - that is 1 Heavy Gauss shot less, but you could give a nice buff to all your Pylons.
Edited by Banshee, Aug 23 2017, 06:18 AM.
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| Quinten87 | Aug 23 2017, 06:43 AM Post #38 |
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Lychguard
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If I'm not putting them within 18" what's the point of the Heat Cannon? I gain a shot and a half but have to pay more points and lose 4 strength. The Skyfire rule is a wash as about 50% of vehicles that are actually taken have fly in my experience. The GE is definitely more points efficient as just a long range artillery type unit. The HC is more efficient as an alpha striking tank removal gun. I thought that a long range artillery piece was what was going to work best and went with that. Regardless the tournament is on Saturday it is far too late for me to acquire a Sentry Pylon with a HC. I don't have a stalker. It's one of the few new codex units I haven't acquired yet. Edit: By new codex I mean the one Matt Ward wrote. This was a poor choice of words. Edited by Quinten87, Aug 23 2017, 06:44 AM.
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| Banshee | Aug 23 2017, 09:43 AM Post #39 |
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Lychguard
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My calculations tell me that HC is still more point efficient in many situations because that is not just 1.5 shots more - it is 75% shots more. And loosing 4 ST is not critical as it may seem, if you look at the math after all. Not this edition and not at this levels (8 vs 12). Which makes damage output in many situations higher than 23% more - making it more cost effective. I just want you to give it a try someday not necesserely this tournament. I see you allways trying to min/max your lists to make them most competitive. I'm just trying to help you with that.
Edited by Banshee, Aug 23 2017, 09:47 AM.
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| Cyn | Aug 23 2017, 06:13 PM Post #40 |
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Immortal
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Your list is looking a hell of a lot better now you've got a decent amount of firepower. Shame you couldn't take the DDA, although I find that is only really worth the points if it is working in tandem with a Stalker. Regarding the heat cannon vs Gauss on the Pylons.. I do prefer the HC as well however if I were taking two, I'd use one of each. It's a good point that a lot of vehicles have the fly special rule. But I find the likelihood of more shots and double damage vs anything that gets too close (for example a deep striking dread knight) is worth it. |
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