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| 2k Starting Lists; A Place for Various Ideas I'm playing with. | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Dec 18 2017, 02:23 PM (324 Views) | |
| Akar | Dec 18 2017, 02:23 PM Post #1 |
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Destroyer
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This is my current list for starting out when I get around to it. I Originally had Zahndrekh in there, but with the Veil back to it's 3rd ed. version, Im happy to go back to it for a bit. 1 - Overlord w/Staff of Light, Veil 2 - Cryptek w/Staff of Light 20 - Warriors 20 - Warriors 10 - Immortals 10 - Immortals 20 - Flayed Ones 20 - Flayed Ones I've only had 2 games with this so far, both with Zahndrekh. The turns that went really well were the ones where I got the BS+1 trait. I was running Tesla Immortals, but that might switch back to Gauss Immortals, since it looks like I'm going to be up against Alpha strike lists. I'm hoping the Veil will help out with this a TON. The First game was mediocre. We were both playing our first game, so there was a ton of pause, rules reading, before resolving every little step. Still managed to knock it out in about 2 hours. Still, I got a pretty good idea of how we function in 8th and has made watching other games a bit more understanding. The second game was a loss, but I made him earn it every step of the battle. He made a HUGE mistake and dropped 3 units of Primaris Inceptors in on me, and charged them all in. I had positioned my Flayed Ones to form a wall to protect my Warriors, so that's who he decided to hit. 2 units hit the FO's on the left, 1 unit hit the FO's on the right. So the first mistake was to not impact my shooting whatsoever. His second major mistake was to choose the single unit to go first. So they did a decent chunk of damage. I then activated the other unit that was up against 2 units of Inceptors, and well, it did NOT go well for him. I neglected to move my units in time after that, so when the game ended on T5, he had me on Linebreaker with a few VP's. ----- So this will be my next list. I'm still going off of denying my opponent any benefit for bringing AT, making it difficult for him to score Tactical Objectives. Mobility is a bit of an issue, but having that -1 on Warriors is actually amazing. While I do think the change to the Morale Mechanic affects Crons more than any other army currently, it wasn't that bad. He had to kill an average of 7 models for me to even really worry about it, and I found that using the 1 CP for a re-roll was more useful than trying to blow the 2 CP for complete immunity. I do see this being a problem when my opponents learn to split fire across the two units of Warriors where I can't use the multiple CP. * Flayed Ones are still as brutal as they've ever been. Their Damage output is insane, and they're great at what they do, you've just got to get them there. They function really well as a genuine distraction unit, because they will hurt if your opponent ignores them. I MIGHT consider breaking them up into smaller units just to try it out, but first turn being based on deploying first is kind of deterring me from doing that right now. * Immortals are awesome, are the exact same cost, and I really don't see much of a debate anymore on the weapon preference. Both are great choices with their own drawbacks. In an aggressive meta I think the Gauss Immortals win out tactically, because they aren't dependent on a Lord babysitting them, and Rapid Fire range really pushes back anything coming at you. The Drawback I had with the Gauss Immortals were the Storm Shield Termies I had against me, so the -2 was negated to being equivalent with the Warriors. Knowing what I know now, I probably would've prioritized targets differently. Because of the Cost Difference, the Tomb Blades are off for now. While I do think they're back to their 3rd ed. origins (Original Destroyers!), I need to figure out the Warrior-Immortal synergy first, since I'm down to 40 from what I'm used to. Wraiths are still useless at doing much to actually score VP's. No, I don't have any actual experience, but watching the other Necron players at the shop, I can see they're struggling with them as well. ----- Now that I've got these Alpha armies worried about hitting my lines too soon, I'm toying with dropping 1 unit of Flayed Ones for 2 Nightscythes. Not sure how many armies out there are capable of dealing with 2 flyers in 1 turn, but going first would be more critical because if I went second and he downed a flyer, I'd be in a bit of trouble. Same as 7th, with them being my only Vehicles, they immediately become a target for all of my opponents AT. We'll see how it goes. Edited by Akar, Dec 18 2017, 03:40 PM.
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| Banshee | Dec 18 2017, 05:18 PM Post #2 |
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Lychguard
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Pretty interesting and completely out of template lists this forum came to so far. It would be interesting to see what will you do against long range vehicle heavy lists. I don’t see your list having alot of chances out there. Astra Militarum should blow you to beats easily...
Edited by Banshee, Dec 18 2017, 05:19 PM.
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| Akar | Dec 18 2017, 05:38 PM Post #3 |
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Destroyer
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Template lists are usually based off of an alternate system, so most of those mechanics don't apply here. I'm quite literally 'back to basics' and I'm just starting out with dealing with the 'Eternal War' missions. Most of my game playing will be from my Dark Angels, since I just got their dex, but if I end up playing against someone who will not be so hardline, then I'll probably break out my Necrons. I have a game lined up against AM sometime after the new year. I'm not terribly worried about it yet as they have had their dex updated, we haven't. It's the same story from previous editions. The updated will usually* outperform those waiting to be updated. I can be patient. While this list may not be a good match up, it's setup to handle the EW missions. I'll work on the Maelstrom missions later. Regardless of who I play, I'm only trying to figure out how the units perform at this point. The changes have been such a flashback to 3rd ed, that I'm back to throwing units at my opponent, making a list of what can kill me and what can't, and going from there. I hope to have a good idea of how the units function (ignoring cost being a factor) before we get our dex. That way it'll be easier to make adjustments for the new stuff based on how I want to play. The only real flaw I'm seeing in the army is Morale, and it's not something that targetted us specifically, just that we're the most affected by it. It'll be interesting to see how they address this in the upcoming dex, but other than that, I'm fairly happy with how the army performs. Just some serious point issues, mostly with Flayed Ones and Tomb Blades. |
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| Banshee | Dec 18 2017, 07:35 PM Post #4 |
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Lychguard
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It is not about EW or Maelstrom. It's about our resilence dropped dramaticly. I think this list could be easily tabled by AM. |
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| Quinten87 | Dec 18 2017, 10:33 PM Post #5 |
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Lychguard
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From what I've seen in 8th a lot of top-tier tournament lists could table this without too much trouble, not just ad mech. If it works in your local meta that's great but Necron infantry is currently not really worth it except to maybe get some CP's and even then there is no way warriors should be taken. I haven't played with VoD and that might make one unit of 20 warriors somewhat viable. Flayed ones do put an insane amount of damage out but they are incredibly easy to shoot down for how much they cost so I wouldn't recommend using them. To be perfectly honest, at 2000pts, I could see this getting tabled in 3 turns. If you want a casual list that's okay but like Banshee said, it doesn't matter what missions you are playing if the other guy can table you in 3 turns. |
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| Banshee | Dec 19 2017, 05:02 AM Post #6 |
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Lychguard
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I meant Astra Militarum - but that doesn’t matter. Death Guard are new Necron for the moment in term of resilience and maybe even playstyle. And we are not we used to be for sure... |
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| Akar | Dec 19 2017, 06:05 AM Post #7 |
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Destroyer
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We've had this discussion and I've already posted a more polite caveat in response to Banshee. Not relevant to this discussion nor will they be until they start playing the 40k scenarios. I've even intentionally titled this thread as 'Starting Lists' to avoid this crap. I'm not looking for an effective list. I'm starting from scratch, figuring out where the backbone is, and building on that prior to the codex. I have no intention of nerfing my playstyle to accommodate tournament play. If you want to continue down this road and derail every thread, I encourage you to go to https://www.frontlinegaming.org/forums/ for those who share your views and let the rest of us play 40k as GW intends. Otherwise, kindly limit your responses to threads addressed accordingly, where such comments might have relevance. ----- @ Banshee Any actual experience on fielding Warriors that might be useful? Keep in mind, I'm not bringing them out just yet, but my goal here is to figure out how Warriors play first. Up until 8th, they have been our strongest unit so naturally, I'm starting there. I'm not too concerned about winning, just how they perform at this point. The W/L only really matters against other non-updated codexes. When we get ours, then the W/L will only matter against other updated Codexes. It's not accurate to compare something that has been re-written for 8th to something that had a global points formula applied to it. So, I'm not expecting too much. You mentioned 'not resilient', and I can't help but think you started playing during the FNP-Crons. I played them back in 3rd, so I'm used to only being able to make RP roles at the start of the turn. True that they were 3+, there were no modifiers to save (unless you played against Orks), and Morale didn't cause extra casualties. They were also 18 points per model so the numbers in the army now are VERY close to what we had back then. I can easily see myself playing with slowly adding Warriors until I stopped getting tabled if it came down to it. What I am looking at are simple-synergies that I can play around with to make my army lists. This is built on that concept by modifying my 7th ed list. - Low Drop Count (9) will give me the best odds of going first more often than not. - There are still 100 wounds, with the two Crypteks providing the invul to shooting in addition to the bonus to RP. - The solo Overlord is intended to utilize MWBD, while not becoming dependant on it like Tesla Immortal Heavy lists. Zahndrekh was great here possibly giving 2 units effective BS+1, The Veil will give me an out. - The Flayed Ones are going to start on the board. Yes, this means they won't survive much, but that's not the goal. The Goal is to see how they perform at the worst possible situation. - Both the Warriors/Flayed Ones are the MOST affected by the changes to Morale. So I want to get a good idea of the impact that has sooner than later, and if there are ways to manipulate it. - Mostly, I'm STILL learning 8th. Even with my Ravenwing, I'm screwing up a TON. The break that I took was much needed as I feel it was long enough to not bring in any of my bad habits from 7th over, and question EVERYTHING. I've got 2 more list ideas floating around in my head to focus on different ideas/synergies. I'll come back and post them when I nail them down. |
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| Banshee | Dec 19 2017, 06:29 AM Post #8 |
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Lychguard
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The thing is not about tournaments. And no - more warriors won't give you more survivability. You just don't have any good anti-tank options. Gauss will in no way help you with that. Any army (even codexless), that will take competitive list (i'm not talking about tournaments - i don't participate in any) will table you with vehicles. Just because you won't lower enemy firepower every turn - and enemy will easily lower yours. Chapter Approved have nice EW and Maelstrom missions and lower drops number don't guarantee you first turn out there. 100 wounds is not that much. 10 rhinos have 110 wounds, cost 700 points and will survive your firepower easily... And please don't get angry. It was your intention to post here - now we are adding our opinion, based on experience thus far. The game has changed dramaticly. P.S. Going first is about doing as much damage as possible - and i don't see your list doing alot of damage at the first turn (from afar). P.P.S. And if your enemy is good - you won't get a chance of even rolling RP - and not - not because of morale. Edited by Banshee, Dec 19 2017, 06:52 AM.
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| Akar | Dec 19 2017, 04:01 PM Post #9 |
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Destroyer
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Thank You for your feedback Banshee. I’m already aware that my first turn damage output isn’t great, but that’s the point. We haven’t needed any AT before, and there was no reason to add it just for a temporary solution. Not reasons to stop playing. It’s difficult to show that the goal here is to learn how the army performs, not what will destroy them. I’m fully aware of where other armies are at. Updated armies already have their power/efficient units in place. Non updated armies still have those, but they’re temporary. A competitive player will know (not just take advice or Netlists) all of the elements his army is capable of. Since the game has changed so much, the solution is start over and build again. This will allow him to field an army that will challenge his opponents. Unlike previous editions, I don’t have a mental catalog of what the units do and the majority of advice so far is ‘Dont Play them because X is better’. I play Crons because they are MY army, just like any army I field. I don’t care about who or what I’m playing against, and that’s surely not a reason to avoid games. When I started playin Crons in 99, we didn’t even have a Dex, and I didn’t win a single game for nine months. You really think I’m going to worry about being tabled when we’ve essentially got an entirely new game with 8th? Is it really that bad to attempt to inject some life into the army by posting my intent and results instead of shooting it down? I’m not angry at all anymore really. You posted as much above when you said ‘It’ll be interesting to see how it goes’ despite your experience telling you it won’t work. I hope that it will be as refreshing a read as I find it entertaining to provide feedback on my growth. This will be for those who are looking for experiences with Necrons, not on how they get destroyed. The Qman approaches everything from the tournament perspective as if it is still somehow relevant. The impression it gives is that it’s impossible to be a competitive player if you don’t play in tournaments. Read his comments on other threads, and it boils down to ‘You can’t succeed if you don’t play what everyone else is playing’. It doesn’t build a community, it divides it. Edited by Akar, Dec 19 2017, 04:02 PM.
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| Banshee | Dec 19 2017, 05:02 PM Post #10 |
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Lychguard
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Well i have only Crons, so by no means i want anyone to forget about Crons until codex go out or forever. It is just strange that while you are not looking back to 7th and is opened for anything new - you still go to Flayed Ones and Warriors - those units are your favorite in the 7th and maybe years earlier (correct me if i’m wrong). What is really new for me (for example) is FW models. GW has strong desire to integrate FW into the game. All those FW indexes, FW FAQs and point updates (found on official cominity site and in official rule updates) are clearly serving that goal. And those units are really great (from my perspective). They give me that much needed and desired anti tank options. And honestly i’m not that optimistic about our upcoming codex. We got 0 updates in Chapter Approved on non-FW models and that means that GW don’t find any problems with our unit costs and utilization.
Edited by Banshee, Dec 19 2017, 05:04 PM.
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| Quinten87 | Dec 19 2017, 06:09 PM Post #11 |
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Lychguard
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I would just like to clarify some things here: i) There is obviously no way for me to prevent you from playing what you want to play. You posted a list, asking for advice, and I gave you my opinion based on my experience with 8th. ii) I have actually ran every unit your playing in a multiple real life-games of 8th. I ran many of these units before FLG even released any rules so there is no possible way I could have been influenced by those results. I own the models too and ran (both in 8th and 7th) warrior/Immortal/Flayed Ones lists. These lists were match-up dependant but okay in 7th, but are quite poor in 8th. iii) If you just want to figure the book out for yourself then why would you post asking for advice? I can understand wanting to figure things out for yourself, figuring things out for yourself, then coming onto a forum to discuss what you have found, but asking for advice on your list, being told by people who have played something similar that it is quite bad, and then promptly dismissing the advice just doesn't make sense to me. iv) Although I do not believe that Necrons are in a great spot it is highly possible to make good Necron builds and these builds need not all follow the same mould. I have never claimed that Necrons just get destroyed. v) You have claimed multiple times that I believe that it is impossible to be a competitive player without being a tournament player. This is not true. Although, generally, as one would expect many competitive players are tournament players I know players who could resoundingly crush many tournament players who just play the occasional casual game themselves. vi) I'm not sure how the tournament approach is not relevant? It is often at tournaments that players play their best lists and try to compete for the top spot. Furthermore, you do not need to win the scenarios to table your opponent. The FLG changes are even more minimal than they were in 7th and basically amount to, you can't play ridiculous LoW (>30PL) and slightly modified missions that are based on the ones GW put out. Neither of these things will affect, in any way shape or form, whether or not a list can table you (except maybe the PL thing but I'm guessing your meta isn't overrun with reaver titans). The scenario you play does not affect whether or not you get tabled. vii) I have no problem with casual players. If someone posts that they want there list to be for casual play or semi-competitive play I only suggest things to fix obvious problems. From the looks of this thread, I assumed you wanted to build a competitive list in 8th, saw what your current list was, and having played something similar multiple times, knew that it wasn't going to work against competitive lists at all and posted advice accordingly. If you had said I thought up this list to play some for-fun games against my friends (and again, I was a for-fun player for quite a while, it's a great way to experience the hobby and if that's what you want to do I respect that everyone does not need to enjoy the hooby the same way I do) my advice would have likely been to put in some anti-tank. viii) My advice is absolutely not ‘You can’t succeed if you don’t play what everyone else is playing’. As much as you hate tournaments there have been people who have won tournaments by doing exactly the opposite of that. But they did it by trying something no one else considered before, not by playing what has been already tried, and what has already failed. iix) I have no intention of dividing the community and do not see how I'm doing this. I'm sorry, for not entirely addressing the topic of this thread, (your list) but felt I should defend what I have said as you seemed to interpret it as something else. If you do not wish me to post advice on any more of your army lists please just ask, as if it's just going to devolve into an argument about tournaments and not the actual lists itself there is no point in me posting. I hope your quest to be successful in 8th goes well. Edited by Quinten87, Dec 19 2017, 06:14 PM.
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| Akar | Dec 20 2017, 01:09 AM Post #12 |
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Destroyer
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Though many disagree, Warriors were our strongest unit in each codex. I'm aware that they got shafted with the Index list, but I'm hoping that will change. I'm starting there. Flayed Ones are a personal favorite of mine, and I even made them lethal in 6th despite being overcosted. In 7th they were the best assault unit we had in our dex, but that's largely because the pendulum swung to far the other way and they were too cheap. Now they're back to being way more expensive than ever before, again this is based on GW probably using a generic formula that they applied to all the index armies, and not a specific attack on the unit. We have differing opinions on FW and you won't see them on any of my lists for a variety of reasons. Most of it is off topic here, but if you'd like to know more feel free to PM me. I will agree that it does give us some much needed AT options. I can confirm that each each edition has made Gauss worse and worse, and I do miss the days when that lone Warrior would land the 6 and wreck a Land Raider. I HOPE that they address this in the codex so that we don't still don't need AT. While I might change my mind on FW down the road, now is definately the worst time to get into when we don't know what holes we'll need to fix when we get our dex. ----- That said, I spoke with a few of the other guys and we're going to start small and work our way up in more of an Escalation type process. Table space is limited on Saturday, so it gets frustrating when we have to watch a 2k game and there are 8 people waiting. So I'll need to come up with a 500-750 point list and build off that. I'll probably still start off with 20 Warriors and a Cryptek. That should leave me with 150 points for whatever. I'll probably play around with Tomb Blades or Scarabs until we go up to the 750 point mark. |
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| Akar | Jan 18 2018, 12:51 AM Post #13 |
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Destroyer
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Had a new player ask me to bring my Necrons and we agreed to 1700 points. This time I went a completely different direction and had a BLAST. While I am breaking out and starting to play my Necrons after the disappointment with the Dark Angels codex, it's still on a request basis right now. I think I'm going to stick with this list and work on it a bit until we get our Dex. 3 x Overlords with Staff (1 w/Veil) 30 x Tesla Immortals 27 x Canoptek Scarabs 6 x Canoptek Spyers With RP being a huge problem, I built this list to not use it. It was actually refreshing to have freedom to move around and not be bound by making any RP combo's work. The only reason I won was because he's still new and wasn't familiar with how Missions work, so we went with the whole 'Just kill each other'. It was also refreshing because he was playing Orks, so it was an Index list vs. and Index list. Was able to constantly keep a wall of Scarabs blocking anything from getting to the Immortals. Only lost 1 unit on turn 3 when the Dreads were finally able to hit home. Vehicle problems aside, I was still able to kill 2/3 Kans, and 1/3 Dredds. We called it on T4, because they were on one side of the board and I had most of the force over on the other. There was no infantry left except maybe a Painboy and a random Nob. Going forward up to 2k, I don't know what to add in. I'm leaning toward Tomb Blades, but I run into being forced into adding a Detachment. Tactically they fit in nicely and would be a decent support unit. Praetorians are also another option I'm looking at. I'd toss in Stalkers, but I can't for the life of me find my box with them in it. I'm a little wary of them because I'm already running an Overlord for each squad of Immortals, so they'd almost entirely be for dedicated AT. Not gonna worry about it until I find that missing box. |
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| Banshee | Jan 18 2018, 06:38 AM Post #14 |
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Lychguard
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I find tomb blades too costy to be efficient. But i didn’t try it. I’m looking forward to get feedback from you about actually using it. You are allready can organize your units in 2 detachments and i can’t understand, why you didn’t do that. Or you allready did it by getting 6 different units of spyders to get more scarab hive rolls? P.S. Reread Scarab Hive rule - it doesn’t care how many Spyder units you have on the battlefield - just 1 d6 roll for each scarab unit. So i’m not sure what for did you take so many spyders. Edited by Banshee, Jan 18 2018, 06:51 AM.
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| Akar | Jan 18 2018, 07:07 PM Post #15 |
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Destroyer
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My Ravenwing showed me this as well. It doesn't seem to be limited to Tomb Blades, but pretty much all Bikes. They lost the 'Stable Platform' effect, No more 'Hammer of Wrath' or bonuses for charging. While I'm fine with this, I don't believe the cost has been reflected enough justify the loss of output. The only bikes that I've seen benefit from 8th are the Eldar, because most of them are Assault, so they have insane speed and can still shoot. Main reason was that my opponent was new. He had his army organized into a single Detachment as well and no one had bothered to teach him about CP yet. I can understand avoiding Objectives if you don't know the basic 'How to kills stuff', but CP is something that is there from the Start. So to keep things simple, I kept the same number of CP as him, and we only used the 3 core options from the book. After the game I showed him some of the others and he got excited, so I think it paid off. I so owe my opponent an apology then. The Spyders were sorted into 2 model units so that each unit of scarabs would have their own babysitter. You are correct though, I was rolling for each Spyder, not each unit of Scarabs. I'm going to have to revisit this again then. Thank you. Edited by Akar, Jan 18 2018, 07:17 PM.
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| Banshee | Jan 18 2018, 08:58 PM Post #16 |
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Lychguard
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It was my understanding of the rule. I’m not sure that i’m absolutly right. While it is the rule for the unit - it is written as it doesn’t care, how many units you have. To be really clear in this manner it should be written for Scarabs - not Spyder. “1d6 - if there is any Spyder unit nearby”. Or something like that. |
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| Akar | Jan 19 2018, 12:29 AM Post #17 |
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Destroyer
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I've been cleaning out my stuff, getting it all into one place (and trying to find my Vehicles!). I found boxes that I couldn't remember buying, projects that I started but never got around to finishing. I recently found my 'Bug' box which prompted that list. It had 30 Scarab Bases and 6 Tomb Spyders. So I ran 3 units of Scarabs with 3 units of Spyders to support them. So the only thing I really did wrong was roll twice for each unit of Scarabs, 1 for each Spyder, and not unit of Scarabs. It only mattered to my opponent on Turn 2, when I put two bases back into the one unit. The second unit only lost the one base, and the third unit didn't get touched. It only mattered to me on Turn 3, when the 1 unit rolled 2x 1's. So I took off 2D3 MW when I only should've taken the 1D3. ----- That aside, I think I could still get the tactic to work. I'd use the leftover points to add 3 more units of Scarabs. Since Spyders can now support multiple units of Scarabs they'd have to choose which bugs to kill. While it would be fun and very easy to manage, I'm not sure it would be very effective as you'd have over ~1200 points not invested into shooting. I would also need to scrounge up another 24 Bases of Scarabs. Not going to put that much effort into it this close to release. I've got a modified version forming in my head that I might attempt this weekend. I'll try to post it tonight or tomorrow. ----- Overlord w/SoL 2x Cryptek w/SoL 60 Warriors (20/20/20) 20 Tesla Immortals (10/10) 24 Canoptek Scarabs (8/8/8) 4 Spyders (2/2) If I did the math right it comes to 2003 pts. Edited by Akar, Jan 19 2018, 01:14 AM.
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8:19 PM Jul 11