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Aura Hyperia was originally created from the merging of the regions Bloemfontein and A Second Try, and then arose from The United States of Europe. Its former residents have rebranded themselves as the Hyperion Order, and currently reside within New Hyperion.

Founded: 29th October 2014

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What is New Hyperion?
New Hyperion (NH) is a region of NationStates. It is an empire built on the principles of Hyperionism, our guiding philosophy.

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Hold on there, buddy, you haven't even registered yet! You'll have to scroll up (or just click here) and take care of that first.

After that, take a look at those four forums at the top of the list. The Low Orbit Welcome Wagon is where you can apply for Plebeianship and introduce yourself. You can undergo Patricianship if you're interested in leadership. For everything else, go to Imperial Service.

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Our region has three main levels of command: the Imperial Council, the Inquisition, and the Hyperion Senate.

The Imperial Council (IC) consists of the Autarch, Chancellor, Lord Inquisitor, High Lords, and military command. It assembles when sensitive or secret decisions need to be made. Its members otherwise act separately as department heads and administrators.

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The Hyperion Senate consists of all our Patricians, and is the primary body of law and policy. The Senate operates somewhere between a democracy and a mob, and doesn't necessarily need hard votes to get things done. While the IC is technically superior to the Senate, it is more common for the Councillors to participate as Senators. As such, the Hyperion Senate tends to be the most important part of the entire government.

Is that it?
Of course not, that would be dry and boring. Granted, the Hyperion Senate is about as boring as a discussion on abortion, but you probably don't want to deal with its squabbles and silliness 24/7. That's why we have the Imperial Service and the military.

The Imperial Service consists of the various departments, such as Foreign Affairs and Recruitment. All departments are volunteer-only, though enlistment and training in the Hyperian Guard is highly recommended for all members. In general, however, you will be encouraged to join under-staffed departments.

Oh yeah, didn't your recruitment telegram mention an RP?
Why yes it did! While we allow other RPs, of course, our main RP is the one that sets the standard of our theme and culture. It's kind of complex and involved, but once you get the ball rolling it's about as smooth sailing as any other RP.

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A Song of Ice and Fire megathread; Every single word will be a spoiler to those who didn't read the books
Topic Started: Jun 16 2015, 07:27 PM (280 Views)
Chancellor Laurentus
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Dreadlord of New Hyperion
Here, more in-depth discussions can be had about the books and series, because there is no fear of spoiling it for people who don't want it spoiled.
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Miricano
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Defender upon the Wall
[redacted]
Edited by Miricano, Jun 16 2015, 10:07 PM.
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Chancellor Laurentus
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Frostmark
 
Yes, I'm well aware that they think the show audience is too stupid to remember that they left on boats, and that when they boarded them they left South of the wall entirely. This is kind of an ongoing thing with them, the assumption that TV needs to be extremely dumbed down for large appeal (though the Sopranos and the Wire would seem to disagree). The truth in this situation however seems to be more that they felt like shoehorning the scene from the books into the show even when it didn't make sense to their established continuity, again proving that they run their adaptation as a series of points on a checklist.


Bravo for even noticing it. I'll be honest when I say that I didn't even notice it had happened until I started reading the reviews of the episode. If that speaks to my lack of any sort of brain, so be it, but I was far from the only one, thus proving that a TV audience is too inattentive to appreciate finer details like these. *End of sarcasm*. When you're reading a book, you can constantly refer to the maps, and you have a much better idea of where you are in the world.

Names, places and all these other finer details are utterly lost on an audience who watches for an hour per week, and then has to wait a year for the next season to come. When I first saw Stannis in season 2, I had absolutely no idea who he was, even though they mentioned him quite a few times in season 1. In the books, you don't encounter him in AGOT either, but you have a lot more time and opportunity to expand your knowledge of places, history, people and the exact layout of the land.

This was undoubtedly an error on their part, but it didn't detract from my enjoyment in the least, especially as no emphasis is ever made on the exact layout of the land.

Look at the total viewership of The Wire and The Sopranos, and then look again at how many of their viewers actually caught on to all the details the first time around, and it also becomes clear only those who gave it sufficient attention, possibly through viewing and reviewing episodes and watching them as part of a marathon, catch all of the little details. And that's not even comparing apples to apples yet, since Game of Thrones encompasses a far larger fictional setting than The Wire or The Sopranos.

That said, I'm surprised you didn't mention Breaking Bad. :P

Frostmark
 
Nah. It doesn't matter how the books presented it because Show!Jon didn't get wildlings to join the watch, and received no open dissent beyond Thorne's standard fare and continuous sideways looks from Olly Chekhov. They are not that stupid in the books, despite much more open dissent and the fact that they have actual reason to doubt Jon's Other narrative, it takes much more to get them to actually turn on him.
"Clearly the tension was building" yes. In the books. It's entirely different in the series, using the events in the books to validate the show's portrayal doesn't work at all. He's literally just proven with thousands of witnesses that the wight army is coming for them, and at the same time he is the first person to have been witnessed killing an Other for thousands of years, literally immediately becoming a figure of legend that will have songs written about him for generations, because the show likes including cool bullshit without regard for the consequences.
It was put pretty well by a gentleman on the Westeros forums:

"Fellow men of the Night's Watch. We have seen the horrors that filled our childhood fairytales. They are real and they are marching on the wall! No one will survive. Not a wildling, not you, not your families. No one. We must band together..."
*stab* *stab* *stab* For the Watch!!!
"Wha...why did you just stab me. This makes no sense."
Wildling lover!
"Umm, you realize you're going to have your head eaten by zombies in a couple days, right?"
For the Watch!
"It's like you're following through with a plotline that no longer makes any sense given what has just happened to us all."
For the Watch!!


The purpose of my comparison with the books was to show you how stupid the Watch was in both instances, not to validate what occurred in the show with what happened in the books.

During the course of the show, Alliser Thorne had been growing to hate Jon increasingly more as time went on, particularly after Jon broke his vows by sleeping with a wildling, and told Thorne "tall tales" of giants and the sheer size and desperation of the wildling army.

Early in the series, I could even understand Alliser's dislike of Jon, because he was defending Sam from the harshest elements of the training, thus actually doing more harm than good by not making Sam prepare for what was to come. I approved of Alliser's speech to them both when he described how they had to survive the winter north of the wall by first eating the horses, and then each other as they began dying. This was a man who had obviously lived through hell, and had every reason to hate wildlings who had been at war with the Watch for his entire career as a Man of the Watch.

But that's the thing, though. It bred irrational hatred of the wildlings, just as my father, uncle and many of their generation who served in the military on the front lines in the war in Angola grew to hate black people in general. The racism (or in the Watch's case their hatred for these savage barbarians) defied - and in most cases continues to defy - all logic, even when faced with the problems that South Africa has (and how this echoes the problems the Watch is facing). I've seen perfectly smart people become total morons in real life on issues of race, culture, language and heritage, who wouldn't trust these people even when faced with a very real existential crisis.

Show-Jon had been receiving disgusted looks from a lot more people than Alliser and Olly (why, hello there, Bowen Marsh!), and the idea that Jon had led members of the Watch to their deaths at Hardhome, while defending a wilding village, was just to much to bear for these idiots.

Again to use a real world example, my father's generation still has a distinct, and completely irrational distaste for any Englishmen, and while I was young, my uncle would often say that you can't ever trust an Englishman in the army, as they're soft and they will betray you at the front lines, and that the world would be better off if all Englishmen were killed, along with all black people. This coming from a man whose life depended on fellow English soldiers in the war! And also a man who went on to study electronic engineering and eventually became the owner of quite a successful film and media production company called Frame24. Even my father, who is a lot less extreme, can't completely hide his distrust for Englishmen or people of colour. Is it rational? Not in the slighest. I can't say I'll ever understand it, but without a doubt, this is a common thing. Just look at the problems facing our world, and yet people will still kill each other over issues of race and culture!

On that count alone, I don't see it as a stretch of the imagination that Alliser and the other members of the Watch would be so clueless.

In the books, they can't stand the idea of welcoming wildlings into the Watch, so how do you imagine they'll react when Jon starts preaching that their vows to protect the realms of men with their lives include the wildlings too, people who have slaughtered their brothers for 8 000 years? Not bloody well, even with what's coming. Not in my experience of racism and cultural hatred, both from black people to white people, from white people to black people, or from Afrikaners to Englishmen. Humanity is stupid like that.

You could read all of this and not agree in the slightest, and then obviously the show wouldn't work for you, but for some of us, that entire sequence of events was completely believable, even given how stupid all those involved were.

And just to put it into perspective of how stupid the Watch was even in the books, they'd experienced the power of the wights (and thus the Others, indirectly) at the Battle of the Fist of the First Men, and somehow they don't think they're royally screwed as of yet? Right...

Frostmark
 
Stannis has absolutely been reduced to a bitch, in terms of Melisandre being his master and the showrunners **admitted dislike of the character**. Show!Stannis burns unbelievers at Melisandre's suggestion. This is book Stannis on the storm that Satannis was happy to murder his daughter over:

"A sacrifice will prove our faith still burns true, Sire," Clayton Suggs had told the king. And Godry the Giantslayer said, "The old gods of the north have sent this storm upon us. Only R'hllor can end it. We must give him an unbeliever."
"Half my army is made up of unbelievers," Stannis had replied. "I will have no burnings. Pray harder."


Let's not even get into how incompetent they made the most experienced and formidable military commander in the kingdoms, who lived on boot leather for months rather than surrender Dragonstone during Robert's Rebellion. But nah, Ramsey and his twenty Navy SEALs (more incredibly crap writing) and a snow storm were enough to make this man bend. Stannis does not bend.
In the books he tells his men that he'll happily go down fighting, and for them to put Shireen on the Iron Throne if he fails. Book!Stannis is not going to willingly sacrifice his daughter, his only heir, the last trueborn Baratheon in the Seven Kingdoms, and he isn't going to wander off into the woods to be randomly cut down by Brienne. We already know that for a fact considering the released WoW chapters confirm that he survived the battle and captured Theon & co. The show has essentially just written him out as soon as they could.


I wasn't aware of their dislike of Stannis, so fair point. Even so, you've already pointed out that the books and series are separate entities. Show-Stannis may have been a great military commander once, but he has fallen under Mel's spell now.

Show-Stannis was not out of character when burning Shireen, as every single one of them would have died there after Ramsay's guerilla tactics. Half of Stannis's men were mercenaries, and none of them were of the north. If there's one thing I've learnt, it is that guerilla tactics work like a charm when you're in your element, and a few men can do a lot of damage if they know how to camouflage themselves, and they move silently and without being seen in the lands they know well. However competent Stannis is as a commander, he isn't omniscient. Given the history and success of guerilla warfare, I wasn't ever in disbelief of the destruction Ramsay was able to cause with it, particularly as he was in his element.

And as stated, even with the show's relatively negative light on Stannis, I respect the man immensely for marching forward after his army had deserted and his wife had killed herself, and he drew his sword at the front of the army and met his end fighting. The fact that he survived into the woods, considering he was at the very front of the front lines while facing such an overwhelming force, is a testament to just how tough and skillful this fucker was. Meeting his end at Brienne's hands, after everything he had done, was justice. He didn't fight it, particularly as he had already been mortally wounded. I can't speak to the popularity of depicting Stannis like this, but everyone in my circle of friends received it well, even with the few book readers among us.

Frostmark
 
By combining Sansa with Jeyne Poole they've entirely reversed her characterisation arc, and destroyed any of the interesting intrigue at the Vale, especially the master plan with Harry the Heir. This is without even touching on the implications of the practically universally critically panned rape scene. "They don't want to introduce new characters this late" doesn't work as logical reasoning at all considering how they're currently casting for the Manderlys and the rest of he Greyjoys for next season. It was just another crappy choice in the rush to get to the ending.
It isn't really surprising they don't care about her characterisation though, because apparently “Themes are for eighth-grade book reports" according to Benioff. And you're bending over backwards to defend the writing ability of these morons when they have happily admitted to bias, want to rush through to the end as quickly as possible, and crammed a "dark lord" figure into the narrative that will not exist in the books (http://grrm.livejournal.com/428790.html?thread=21723638#t21723638:)*.


Again, I don't really care that it was so poorly received by critics, since it achieves its goal of expanding things at Winterfell with the Boltons without bringing in some minor character literally no one would have remembered when they've only watched the show. The rape and sexual violence does wear on my nerves, but so it did in the books, and Jeyne Pool's abuse was much worse than anything that's happened to Sansa.

Harry the Heir is without a doubt a supremely interesting plot LF has going on in the books, but I can't fault the series for going past that and looking at the endgame with more established characters, also taking into consideration that they're already struggling to include all the things they want to include with their 10-episode seasons. I've long advocated a 15-episode season, but I have no idea how that would affect their budget.

Indeed, if we want to complain about rape scenes, we shouldn't be reading the books, and last season's rape of Cersei by Jaime -- a meter away from their son's corpse! -- was much more poorly done and completely destroyed any believable character progression we had of Jaime. Last season was worse in almost all conceivable areas than this one, come to think of it.

I've read the casting-calls, and it does seem like they're casting Euron Greyjoy, or possibly Victarion, but I haven't as of yet seen the Manderleys or reference made to a description that matches the Manderleys, so you may want to point me to where you got this info.

That said, the Greyjoys are an established family on the TV, so they'll have a much easier time with them, and as Euron has found the Dragonbinder (please correct me if I got the name wrong, it's been awhile since I read the books), they are a far more significant faction than the Manderleys too.

And with regards to the Night's King, I agree that they're depicting the Others in a light that is clichéd, being so ugly and dead-looking, instead of elegant and dangerous, and that's why I began enjoying the show far less since season 2, but what's done is done. I actually like this Night's King character they've created, as he is a bit more of a personification of the Great Other, or he may well end up being something akin to Melisandre but serving the Great Other.

I wouldn't go as far as saying they've created a new dark lord, as the Lord of Light has also been shown not to be entirely benevolent, and nothing has convinced me that R'Hllor is any more benevolent than any of the other gods. The Night's King (even if this isn't the same entity of legend who ruled the Night's Watch) is just another character in the struggle between the Great Other and the Red God. It is an exaggeration to claim he's a dark lord.

Of course, if that's the way you feel about it, I can't fault it, but consider that the vast majority of viewers have responded positively.

Frostmark
 
I wasn't actually referencing Dany's scene from the last episode, I was referring to her taking off on Drogon in the previous episode.
The one thing I'm worried about in that scene is that since she's been found by the Dothraki entirely alone. Drogon was by her side in the books and she was on much more equal ground, with how Mormont and Daario have just left to find her they seem to be creating another damsel in distress scenario.


I get your frustration here, but recall that in the books, it had already been established that one man could do a lot of damage with his spear to Drogon in the fighting pits. It is thus not inconceivable that the Dothraki present could well end up also seriously wounding Drogon and take Dany as a prisoner anyway.

Of course, I know that the Dothraki favour those curved swords, but given the sheer number present, as well as the fact that Drogon has not gotten close to reaching the size of Balerion the Black Dread, her fate is definitely uncertain.

From the Winds of Winter Sample Chapter


Frostmark
 
I get that you like the show, but this rampant tendency for show fans to defend them no matter what is getting ridiculous. I have happily accepted them as two entirely different things for the last few seasons, but there isn't really an excuse for poor writing, and not being critical about things helps nobody. When you actually critique work as a customer there is a chance you may be contributing to a better product. Blindly accepting all of their ridiculous design choices doesn't help anyone.
When you compare the very good early seasons with much more book intrigue to the fan-fiction they're now presenting, it is painfully apparent this season (with the entire lack of narrative consistency for the sake of tired tropes, cool action and set pieces, then the Dorne debacle) that they've dumbed everything down considerably to appeal to the lowest common denominator.

[*A nice quote from GRRM: "We don’t need any more Dark Lords, we don’t need any more, ‘Here are the good guys, they’re in white, there are the bad guys, they’re in black. And also, they’re really ugly, the bad guys." The show's inventions stick out like a sore thumb because they're shoehorned in by noticeably inferior writers who do their very best to include the standard boring tropes that Martin set out to subvert when he began writing his series]


I'm not blindly defending it, indeed I have been an outspoken critic of the fourth season, precisely because of the poor choices they made with Shae's and Tyrion's relationship, Jaime's characterisation, and the horrible, horrible battle at Craster's Keep and the clichéd "Ygritte dies in Jon's arms while people are still fighting around them" bullshit that last season pulled. Don't even get me started on the pointless fight between Brienne and the Hound. It was an incredibly good fight scene, but that was the epitome of "let's include bloody battle scene between two legends, because fuck it."

But here's the thing: aside from the Dorne bits, and Barristan's absolutely random death after he just "happened" to be in the same area as the Sons of the Harpy, and that entire battle that took place really, this season worked consistently well for me. So why then should I criticise it if I don't think it deserves it, apart from the parts I've pointed out? If that makes me a filthy TV peasant with no brains, then I'm a filthy TV peasant with no brains. I just happened to have read the books too, and the dialogue and writing there didn't win any awards in my book. George R. R. Martin is superb with creating his world, and the overall plot and subtle foreshadowing, but by god, I got nauseous with some of the things I read, and with the characterisation of pretty much all female characters.

And yet, I can completely forgive it's short-comings without being offended that someone else could actually like it so much more than the series.

If the series pains you so much, why not just stop watching it?

EDIT: And to include a wonderful exchange between Jaime and Tyrion that doesn't even happen in the books: https://youtube.com/watch?v=XAOzMs9HbWg

It's hard to criticise the filthy TV peasant writers when they can include such gems.
Edited by Laurentus, Jun 19 2015, 07:14 PM.
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Lord taulover
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I was wondering what y'all think of the various fan theories.

Let's start with the most popular one out there: R+L=J. Here's one of the better explanations of the theory I can find within a few minutes of Googling.
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Chancellor Laurentus
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It's just too obvious, but George R. R. Martin has stated fans have figured out quite a few large mysteries, so it could be true.
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Lord taulover
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Quite a few people believe that quote to be a reference to an interview in which GRRM was asked whether Aegon or Rhaella were alive, but that's pretty irrelevant to our discussion.

I personally feel that R+L=J isn't "too obvious" in the story. GRRM seems to be placing R+L=J foreshadowing all over the place, especially in AGOT, but that should strengthen the theory, not weaken it. Unless he's able to come up with a plausible explanation for them, writing off all the clues as red herrings would be pretty bad writing.

Furthermore, I don't think it's actually that obvious without the help of the fandom. Although some people seem to have worked out R+L=J on their own, it seems like a large majority are introduced to it via the internet. And then there's the people who finished the series ten years ago (and then read ADWD when it came out), and haven't participated in any online discussions whatsoever, who would probably be surprised by an R+L=J reveal.

Finally, R+L=J not being true just seems to leave a tad too many plot holes for my taste.

Which Jon parentage theory do you lean in favor of?
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Chancellor Laurentus
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I don't have a particular preference. I'm not saying R+L=J is a bad thing, either. I'm actually commenting on the fact that I suspect George R. R. Martin is playing a trick on us by pushing that as the most likely scenario through all the clues, but that in typical George R. R. Martin style, we're actually misinterpreting the available info in spectacular ways.

That said, if Jon is Ned's son, I like the idea of Ashara Dane (Dayne? I can't remember) being his mother.

Of course, the sheer number of prophecies out there really make debating this incredibly entertaining, but ultimately rather pointless. I've seen some incredibly well thought out tin-foil-hat theories, that analyse the books to shreds and find pretty compelling evidence in favour of just about anything you can imagine.

Also, I would really be rather excited if Jon actually does die after the events at the Wall in the last book. My one friend and I have discussed this recently, and remembered one of the characters saying that people see what they expect to see in prophecies, and that their interpretations of them are often wildly inaccurate. I think it was Melisandre who said this? That gave us the idea that Jon wasn't Azor Ahai after all, but that his passing might be significant in some way to that whole prophecy.

That said, Ned's musings on Jon's hair colour, as well as that of his sister, also black of hair, and Rhaegar, blond of hair, really very strongly hinted at such a connection. I'd be really surprised if people didn't consider R+L=J right there, especially as Ned kept remembering a promise he made his sister too, and that he said things like some lies not being without honour. I watched the TV show up to season 3 before I read the books, and still when I got to that part in AGOT, it was immediately obvious what was being implied. Of course, I did miss quite a few later clues, as I came to realise when getting involved in internet discussions, but that part was so blatant that I really don't know how someone could have missed it.

EDIT: One thing I really liked from the books was Meera's telling about the Knight of the Laughing Tree. There weren't really any clues to Jon's identity in it, but it still gave the reader a lot to consider in conjunction with all the other clues that had already been in the books.
Edited by Laurentus, Jan 31 2016, 07:35 PM.
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Lord taulover
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Definitely. If GRRM can pull it off in a way that in hindsight seems obvious (such as Ned's death or the Red Wedding), I would definitely applaud him.

I personally feel that R+L=J presents the best explanation for the various Tower of Joy scenes. This analysis, among others, basically has me convinced that Lyanna was definitely with child at the time. There are other possibilities, such as R+L=D or a miscarriage, but they don't fit as well IMO.
Season 6 leaks

In case you're interested, this is Melisandre's quote:
ASOS Davos V
 
"If sometimes I have mistaken a warning for a prophecy or a prophecy for a warning, that fault lies in the reader, not the book."
The traditional explanation, though, is that Melisandre is lampshading herself:
ADWD Melisandre I
 
I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R'hllor shows me only Snow.
As you said, of course, this could be taken either as a red herring or as an actual clue.

I also find the possibility that Jon will stay dead interesting. GRRM has his fair share of fake deaths (Davos comes to mind), and people have come to accept that some people, including Jon, simply have the plot armor to survive. I saw this interesting prediction a few months ago that Melisandre will appear to revive Jon, but his behavior will seem unnaturally eerie, and the last chapter reveals that Jon is trapped in Ghost. On the complete opposite spectrum, there's people who believe that Jon didn't die in ADWD, but is merely severely wounded.
Edited by taulover, Jan 31 2016, 08:08 PM.
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Lord Inquisitor Colberius X
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I'm also a proponent of the R+L=J theory. It brings everything together, and I don't think that GRRM would suddenly provide an alternative explanation for all the clues he wove into the books.

I've recently started watching the show (having read all the books last year), so I'm glad GOT discussion has started up again. My roommate and I actually had our longest conversation to date yesterday about the differences between the books and the show, predictions for the future of both, and the plausibility of various fan theories. Before that, our longest conversation on record was probably under three minutes long; we talked about GOT for at least an hour and a half.
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Chancellor Laurentus
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My friend Christian Carbonell and I can literally take hours discussing all the possibilities, and each time we do, it deepens our love for this series immeasurably.
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