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Arrow
Topic Started: Jan 20 2014, 05:11 PM (1,307 Views)
EjamiShipper
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Let's talk about Arrow! Who loves the show? Who loves Stephen Amell! (ME!) Do you ship anyone? I ship #Olicity (Oliver and Felicity) and kind of want them together but I want them to do it slowly. I love the build-up. Love Diggle, love Felicity, so-so on Laurel, love Detective Lance, love bad man Malcolm Merlyn!, like Thea, really like Roy (They need to build on his character more), like Moira. I know I am forgetting someone, oh, Slade is back -- love him but the way he looks. Let's talk Arrow my peeps!!!! I will post article, spoilers and discuss the show here!!!!!

Love me some Ollie and Olicity! :cloud9: :cheer: :wub:
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EjamiShipper
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Julian
Feb 4 2014, 03:48 AM
I agree on the Oliver and Laurel friendship/brother/sister dynamic. That was the push and pull I was talking about. I can tell she cares about him, but he also caused a lot of pain for her. You can tell he cares for her as well. At this point it shouldn't be romantic (if it ever is) because there is still so much they would need to work through.

The awkwardness that is Felicity (which I like) will probably be lost eventually once she and Oliver got together.
IA about Oliver and Laurel. I think there is way too much damage inflicted that has gone on between them; to really go there again. Plus adding in the fact, it seems that from what we are hearing/watching on the show, it was more one-sided at first. Being that Laurel wanted the "exclusivity" of the relationship more then Ollie did. He wasn't ready for that and from what I see and what the story is potraying is that he wasn't as in love with her as she was with him.

ITA with you that they have a better brother/sister almost (BFF vibe) then they do as lovers/boyfriend/girlfriend. They should just remain friends because going back to that point again well would rehash things that would be painful and probably dredge up bitter feelings on Laurel's side. Which I totally don't get because years later she dated and sleeps with his BFF (Tommy Merlyn) anyway... :laugh: (Granted they both thought Ollie was dead but still, you know?)

I am all for the Olicity (Oliver/Felicity) pairing because there is so much unexplored potential, angst, feelings there. Do I think it would ruin there relationship? (friendship/working relationship) Honestly, no. I think they respect each other enough and care about each other enough to not let that happen. BUT, that have to get to that place first. I think the writers/tptb know what they have with these two and "IF" they decide to go there with them, the build-up is going to be slow. (As we are seeing it now.) The torturous route. WHY???!!!! (All the couples I love and ship go this way, you know. I must love this. :laugh: )
Edited by EjamiShipper, Feb 4 2014, 01:49 PM.
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EjamiShipper
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View Poll Results: Olicity vs Lauriver POLL VOTE
Voters:39. You may not vote on this poll.

Olicity (Oliver and Felicity as a couple)



(23 votes) 58.97%

Lauriver (Oliver and Laurel as a couple)



(16 votes) 41.03%


I am going to post the comments from the forum I lurk at.

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Laurel with Oliver? This could work out, they seem a good match. I really like Felicity more than Laurel, but she deserves better than Oliver.


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THIS. I totally agree with you " RandomForumUser " !!!

I think that Felicity and Barry should be together in the end as they both have heaps good chemistry as they both talk in the same manner and are on the same level in terms of social awkwardness, intelligence, what they think is funny and not funny, and how they say things, and how the interact with others and friendliness...


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Lauriver Lauriver Lauriver.

Even some people don't see any chemistry between Katie and Stephen, there IS chemistry between them, no matter what you think. Laurel and Oliver know each other for a while and despite all the obstacles on their way (Oliver secret, Laurel's depression, Tommy passing,...) they still care for each other, meaning, they still have feelings for each other. Laurel is not stupid, she's a smart girl and IMO she's just alone, she doesn't know how to deal with Tommy passing, Oliver secrets, no one except Quentin and Oliver can understand her. I just want writers to let her know Oliver secret to get more involved in main storyline and getting the part she deserves : becoming The Black Canary (and not that fake Canary we have right now.)

I used to like Felicity but she became boring. Same reactions, same things, same storylines, and this so sudden crush for Oliver became too heavy for the show. The only difference is when Barry arrived, I just love their chemistry.


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Im such a two sided indecisive person (not in the bad way) as I myself (please don't hate on me or my opinion) am a proud Olicity shipper (Oliver and Felicity as a couple, as Olicity are soo cute together, they have great on screen chemistry and I love all their flirt scenes!) but i totally totally agree with you (as i am also a Lauriver shipper) in the sense that together, Oliver and Laurel have faced and gone through soo many bad times/troubles/situation and gone through countless bad and horrible obstacles (as the one's you mentioned) together and have always been there for each other since the beginning and till the end! and i know that secretly in their hearts, Oliver and Laurel both have feelings for each other and wan't to be with each other and are both now alone and kinda depressed from a lot of hard fights/decisions,drama and situations and i don't know how hard and terrible it feels to loose someone close to you so we should give both Oliver and Laurel heaps of credit. I also totally agree that Laurel deserves way more credit and a better script as she has heaps of potential to be the best female character on Arrow and Laurel is a smart, intelligent and beautiful lady who doesn't know how to deal with her loss and problems but this will be her ultimate downfall which after she rises, Laurel will become the deserved Black Canary and fight alongside both Oliver as Arrow and Roy as Red Arrow/Speedy/Arrow's sidekick!

But IMO there are heaps of Katie Cassidy (Laurel's actress) for no reason just because she currently doesn't have her deserved screen time and a great script (as Laurel's plot and script is currently terrible but the producers said there will be alot more Laurel scenes starting from season 2 episode 10 onwards) and they even post/say mean things to Katie Cassidy when she doesnt even deserve it and Katie Cassidy is a wonderful and amazing and beautifully talented actress who doesn't need all the hate she gets!

(So this is my opinion guys please don't hate on my opinion but if you want to say anything about how i feel about Katie Cassidy/Laurel please respond to my comment but no hate) as i love hearing other peoples opinions on this matter!


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Sara lance is a real Black Canary in this tv show, currently anyway. Thats canon.


I say Amen, that is TRUE! Sara Lance is the real Black Canary. (My friend read the comic books. :laugh: )

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yeah, Sara Lance is the real Black Canary, for now, as the producers of Arrow said in a recent interview that Laurel's drug/tablet or whatever addiction problem will not get better until it gets worse and then Laurel will hit her lowest down point/downfall when Laurel's mother will come back into town and in then Laurel will have moment of clarity because of a scene with Oliver that is " a Oliver and Laurel scene like no other Oliver and Laurel scene ever " (where Laurel realises she has a problem and Laurel will realise she is a better person than this) and then this will lead her to becoming Black Canary...

Arrow12, I am a huge/massive Olicity (Oliver and Felicity as a couple together), and I will always be an Olicity fan, but Oliver and Laurel were endgame couple since the beginning, Oliver and Laurel both know that need and love each other and that they are both trying to risk their lives for the sake of saving others and making Star City a better place in their own way. And for some reason I feel that Barry is the guy version of Felicity and Felicity deserves someone not like Oliver but someone who Felicity deserves, someone who is on Felicity's level (like Barry).

I am not good at explaining things but the point that I'm trying to make is that I want felicity and Oliver to be together and flirt up unitl the near end of Arrow, but near the end of Arrow when Laurel finds out that Oliver is the Arrow, i want Felicity to be together with Barry and i want Laurel to be with Oliver (as it is their destiny)..

As Oliver and Felicity are soo cute together and I always enjoy their flirt scenes and also their scenes where they are fighting and both angry with each other as they have a lot of chemistry together and

Oliver and Laurel have been through a heaps long time of losses,regret,pains, etc etc and have solved problems for both each other and solved problems together and have stood by each other always and till the end...

I hope I make sense and show you what my point/opinion is about the whole Olicity and Lauriver shipping couples... so please feel free to comment your opinion on this subject as I love to hear what people feel/think about these couples!


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I don't believe Oliver will end up with Felicity at all. She makes such a great character on the show and in the cave.. If they got romantic, they would be different at 'work', fighting crime.. If he is going to turn to either of them, I think it would be Laurel.. But personally, I don't think he chooses a future with either.. I bet the future we will see a new real love interest. And he will have to keep her in the dark about his secrets...


BOO! I hope we get Olicity. I would be bummed personally. Bad enough we have to go thru the motions with Lauriver? :laugh:

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yeah me too! , (i am a huge Olicity - Oliver and Felicity as a couple, fan) as i think that Oliver and Felicity will eventually be together for a short-medium while, and then Laurel will find out Oliver's the Arrow and then Oliver and Laurel will be together and Felicity will find someone she knows she needs/deserves/is perfect for her (i think she matches with Barry)

But actually now that I think of it a new love interest/endagme for Oliver other than Laurel would be a crazy turn for both the Arrow fans and the producers who make Arrow as they have said in numerous interviews that Oliver and Laurel were endgame together since the beginning of Oliver's return from Arrow and that its their destiny to be together in the end of Arrow, but someone else who Oliver actually loves alot more than any girl and that Oliver would have to her in the dark about his secret's (being the Arrow) but he doesn't know if he can do it and he struggles to keep his secret because Oliver really loves her, that would be a crazy twist and it could work, but for now i prefer that Oliver and Felicity keep flirting away until they eventually be together for a short-medium while and then they will learn that Felicity needs to be with someone else (i think Barry) and Oliver needs Laurel...

But another love interest for Oliver (other than Laurel) could actually work..maybe...

As you people know i love to hear other peoples opinions about my opinion and this subject so please comment if you feel you want to say something!


These long ass sentences with no commas, periods , puncations are making me take a deep breathe. Namaste.

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Don't get me wrong here... I would Love to see Oliver and Felicity together for a while.. I bet the the bantering should be crazy... What writing that would be.. But it could only last so long. We would get bored... But it would be hot for a while... I think the writers would rather just dangle that little treat on the line for a teaser.. And we love every minute of it. Until we Hate it....


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I don't want Felicity with Barry.. If every thing works out, he will be getting his own show.. Nobody can take Felicitys place on Arrow.. Nobody.... She's the one with those great one liners. She keeps Oliver on his toes with her comeback remarks.. No, don't take my Felicity away.... She will have to stay single, or find a very understanding man in the Glades....


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I don't really think one can get into an argument about who really has the best chemistry, per se, because that is ultimately a matter of personal opinion. From purely a plot perspective, however, I don't really see how Laurel/Oliver as a couple make so much more sense than Felicity does, because, frankly, she's had much more of an impact on his life. Felicity has been his friend, confidant, and advisor from the beginning of his "crusade," and she has stuck with him all the way through that, not to mention she was one of the main factors in his personal progression from vigilante to hero. Even if Laurel eventually becomes the Black Canary and evolves from the whiny, obnoxious character she's been so far, what could she possibly bring to another relationship with Oliver besides painful complications and emotional baggage?
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EjamiShipper
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Continuing....

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Neither.

Sara and Oliver

but if I have to choose, then Olicity. Because felicity is awesome


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Yes, the poll should have had
Oliver - Felicity
Oliver - Laurel
Oliver - Sarah
Oliver - Shado
Oliver - Rochev
Oliver - Helena

I would have picked Oliver/Shado but that isn't happening. I would probably picked Oliver - Helena followed by Oliver - Sarah.

Anyway, I picked Oliver - Laurel for the poll as it exists. I really never see any sparks with Oliver and Felicity. I'm not knocking Felicity, I love the character. But it seems to me she's into Barry Allen.



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don't want Felicity with Barry.. If every thing works out, he will be getting his own show.. Nobody can take Felicitys place on Arrow.. Nobody.... She's the one with those great one liners. She keeps Oliver on his toes with her comeback remarks.. No, don't take my Felicity away.... She will have to stay single, or find a very understanding man in the Glades....

In which the poster replied:
But Barry can probably be in Starling city in 3 seconds or something.



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Needs "shipping is annoying" option.


It's the new way to say you like a couple. :P :cheer:

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Can we have an "anyone but Sara" option please?


Please!
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EjamiShipper
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I read this really interesting POV from fan of the show on Laurel Lance morphing into "Black Canary" and why it shouldn't be done. It's really interesting makes several good points and I have to agree with them. Enjoy the read.

The real question is this: will fans accept the change in her character, or by the time she actually becomes Black Canary will everyone already be so sick of the character that we'll all be scrambling to press mute whenever she's on? Perhaps it goes without saying, but I'm really not all that fond of S2 Laurel. In my opinion, she had two episodes back to back (Blast Radius and Blind Spot) this season where she was becoming interesting... again. Sadly, whatever progress they made with Laurel was all ruined for me with Tremors. She was completely unbearable in that episode.

I agree with you that "Tremors" was a step back from the Laurel we saw in "Blast Radius" and "Blind Spot". However, let's not forget that she was more or less abandoned by everyone she trusts and cares for in "Blind Spot", which to me makes her behavior more understandable and forgivable.

As for your question...I have a lot of cyberfriends who still like/care for Laurel and emphathize with her plight, and they have no problem with her current storyline...although they're hoping for her situation to take a turn for the better. Also, people have different preferences when it comes to characters and storylines. I enjoy the Laurel scenes, especially the ones she shares with Quentin, while Roy Harper's scenes/storyline generally leave me pretty cold.

I also think you need to remember that people deal with their problems in different ways (and Lord knows Laurel has had loads of problems heaped on her lately). In season Oliver dealt with his PTSD by adopting a superhero persona and going on a killing rampage, as well as terrorizing the bad guys (something which clearly gave him some strange satisfaction). Quentin dealt with his alcohol problems, grief/guilt and anger by constantly insulting Oliver and the Queen family and by going on an almost monomaniac manhunt for the Hood. Thea dealt with her grief and feeling of being abandoned by her mother by becoming a brat and a troublemaker. Laurel currently deals with her grief over Tommy and guilt over his death by turning to pills and booze, while denying that she has any problems and refusing to accept any help. In fact, every character on "Arrow" has shown both good/positive and less positive sides, and even Felicity (who everyone generally adores because she is so cute and quirky) can be pretty insensitive at times, with her "cutesy"/semi-snarky remarks. .

However, in the eyes of some parts of the "Arrow" fandom the ONLY character who is whiny, unbearable and unable to cope with her problems is apparently Laurel. Furthermore, her season two detractors sometimes forget that in the past she has shown that she can be a kind, supportive and forgiving person as well. I'm not saying that you have to love Laurel, but in my eyes there is a certain degree of double standards when it comes to how Laurel is judged in comparison to how other characters are judged. There is also a tendency to generalize, e.g. to talk in the first person plural ("we"), as if the "Arrow" viewers are one monolithic entity who all share the same views. There are certainly negative feelings towards Laurel in some quarters, but one shouldn't forget that the online fandom (as seen on forums like these) is just a miniscule fraction of the overall viewership. That's why I think that it may be a good thing not to generalize too much about viewer preferences and opinions....I'm talking about my own experiences on various forums/social media, where Laurel still has quite a few fans who like her and defend her.

I personally think Laurel's current storyline is a pretty realistic portrayal of someone going through a major crisis, which is exacerberated by substance abuse. I found a description of her current situation online. I will post it here, because it sums up my feelings perfectly:
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This post conveniently forgets moments wasn’t gratingly abrasive, snarky and *****y and ignores why she acts in such a manner.
Her remarks to her dad were a combination of denial (nobody with a problem admits they have one) and outrage at him for trying to help her, remembering when their roles were reversed he pushed her away.

When she brushed off Oliver she was still mad at him for cheating on her, with her sister, and being indirectly responsible for Sara’s death. Sure that was five years ago but old feelings can be dredge up again under the right circumstances. It opened old wounds and she did not want him around. Not to mention his lack of concern for her led his affair and the death of her sister.

People in pain refuse help, especially if it’s from the people causing it, or people who ignore your attempts to help.

Everybody who is suffering think they’re the only one to suffer so greatly. The world does revolve around them because their life has become one great big pain. We all do it. Anyone who tells you otherwise is either a liar or trying to sell you something.

You’re sick of her acting like an angry, wounded person? Hopefully nobody close to you winds up an emotional wreck because you lack of empathy here is troubling.

Laurel has been likeable. With Tommy, her coworkers in season one, and Thea. She’s been caring, supporting, humorous, and willing to help.

Sure she hasn’t been any of that too much in season two, but that doesn’t mean she has never been that way.

If you don’t like the character fine, but be honest about it. Don’t cherry pick certain flaws and overlook her good qualities.

I am sure that Laurel will return to her old self after going through her crisis. The show is only in the first half of the second season and there is still plenty of room for character development and change.


Please don't take this as a personal attack-you are entitled to your opinions. I just wanted to show that there are other, less negative, views and opinions out there...

This post was brought to you by the "Laurel Lance Defense Team"! :biggrin:

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I agree with you that "Tremors" was a step back from the Laurel we saw in "Blast Radius" and "Blind Spot". However, let's not forget that she was more or less abandoned by everyone she trusts and cares for in "Blind Spot", which to me makes her behavior more understandable and forgivable.


See, I contend that she really wasn't abandoned. Not wholly, anyway. Quentin came to her apartment to see her and try to help her... even after she stole his pain meds (which he obviously needed, as evidenced by his words to Officer Daly a few episodes prior regarding his arm being sore due to his medication being misplaced, as he then believed it to be). So, Quentin knew that Laurel stole from him, was abusing his medication, and was freaking out about Sebastian Blood, a man who to mostly everyone (even Diggle the Dubious, who dared in Season One to doubt Moira the Magnificent, much to Oliver's aggravation) seems to be an honest, compassionate individual. It's easy to make the assumption that she's lost her marbles. And it's one thing to say that Laurel's father doesn't trust/believe her — that only makes sense. But I contend his actions show that he loves her and is concerned for her, and therefore hasn't abandoned her.

As for Oliver... um, yeah, you know what, that's a fair point. The thing is, we know that Oliver's been preoccupied with Roy and the Mirakuru dilemma. So from our standpoint, it makes sense why he's not around for Laurel: there are just things going on that are far more crucial to the plot of this series than Laurel's personal struggles. However, I will say this also: to Laurel, who has no idea that Oliver is the Arrow, it must surely feel like he's abandoned her. But let's put Oliver's avoidance of Laurel into perspective: what Oliver knows is that Laurel, who he helped numerous times throughout Season One as the Hood Guy/Vigilante/etc., betrayed him early in Season Two and blames him (again, as the Arrow) for her boyfriend's death — of course, not knowing that there was a connection between Tommy and the Arrow, in that they were at one time best friends. Moreover, when Arrow finally agrees to help meet with Laurel again (in, I believe, Blind Spot), Laurel says that she didn't want his help but was forced to work with him. Really? Why is she still upset with him? Didn't she come to some astounding revelation in episode three of this season that the Arrow wasn't responsible for Tommy's death? If you want — or especially if you need — help from someone, it's best to treat that person with respect, not act all high-and-mighty and make it sound like he/she is beneath you. I've found and observed in day-to-day life that even a modicum of politeness in societal discourse can go a long way in getting people what they want/need. People are generally more willing to help if they can see that their help is appreciated; but Laurel can't seem to show appreciation to the Arrow (let alone offer an apology), even after she's already acknowledged that Tommy's death wasn't the Vigilante's doing.

Of course there are other characters of lesser note in Laurel's life, but I think Quentin and Oliver are the most important to name here, so unless otherwise prompted I won't get into these other characters (but certainly at least Moira, Thea, and what's-her-face — Laurel's friend from CNRI who offered her a job in "Tremors" — could be at least mentioned).
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EjamiShipper
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Continuing about Laurel Lance/Black Canary post:

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As for your question...I have a lot of cyberfriends who still like/care for Laurel and emphathize with her plight, and they have no problem with her current storyline...although they're hoping for her situation to take a turn for the better. Also, people have different preferences when it comes to characters and storylines. I enjoy the Laurel scenes, especially the ones she shares with Quentin, while Roy Harper's scenes/storyline generally leave me pretty cold.


I won't deny that the Quentin-Laurel relationship has felt and still feels like a father-daughter relationship. I think their scenes together are generally good and believable. But she knows that Quentin went through essentially the same problems that she did six years earlier. Now, he's trying to get her to realize that he made mistakes and doesn't want her to make them too, but it's like she wants to push everyone away and ruin her life just to spite him.

As for Roy... I was looking forward to seeing Roy Harper on this show back when it was first announced that he'd be appearing (I'm one of those guys who's been watching the show since day one, by the way), but his only function on the show seems to be as Thea's love interest. I'm not even gonna pretend to know what the plan is for Super-Roy/Roid-Roy/Roy of Steel/or whatever epithet he should be given, but ultimately I was never really invested in the character. Now that he's an official member of Team Arrow, I'm interested in how things will play out, though more or less in despite of the character. But the Roy-Sin-Thea subplots have largely felt like a deviation from the major (and significantly more important) plots. That said, at the moment I do prefer Roy to Laurel (which maybe goes without saying...).

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I also think you need to remember that people deal with their problems in different ways (and Lord knows Laurel has had loads of problems heaped on her lately). In season Oliver dealt with his PTSD by adopting a superhero persona and going on a killing rampage, as well as terrorizing the bad guys (something which clearly gave him some strange satisfaction). Quentin dealt with his alcohol problems, grief/guilt and anger by constantly insulting Oliver and the Queen family and by going on an almost monomaniac manhunt for the Hood. Thea dealt with her grief and feeling of being abandoned by her mother by becoming a brat and a troublemaker. Laurel currently deals with her grief over Tommy and guilt over his death by turning to pills and booze, while denying that she has any problems and refusing to accept any help. In fact, every character on "Arrow" has shown both good/positive and less positive sides, and even Felicity (who everyone generally adores because she is so cute and quirky) can be pretty insensitive at times, with her "cutesy"/semi-snarky remarks. .


True, people do deal with personal problems in different ways. Were it otherwise, there of course would be no debate on this matter, 'cause we'd all be in agreement, on way or another, on Laurel's demeanor and her handling of her problems, etc. And you make a reasonable point: Laurel has had problems, and big ones at that. But as Quentin adequately pointed out to her in "Tremors", some people have been through worse than she has. Some people in the Glades lost their families, friends, homes, jobs, etc. But she's too full of herself to open up to these people, because not one of them could possibly understand what she's been through. People process grief differently, but it seems prudent to me to take advice from other people who have gone through similar troubles — especially when, as in Quentin's case, they readily admit that they made mistakes and don't want to see the same thing happen to those they care about. Truthfully, I just don't know why anyone would want to offer Laurel any amount of help. All she does on the show is blame everyone around her for her problems, or treat people she needs help from like utter garbage. That's no way to live one's life, and it isn't being honest either; it isn't showing accountability for one's own actions.

I feel like Thea becoming a brat was more because Moira didn't really act like a mother. It was established early on in Season One that Moira sort of let Thea do whatever she wanted. When Moira finally did make an attempt to discipline Thea (by grounding her for... I think it was two weeks or something), Thea just scoffed and ignored it. Again, having never been disciplined, Thea just turned out bad... and somehow in a five-to-six month period between seasons became a successful and responsible business owner.

I like Felicity, but I really would prefer it if the writers/directors give her a less prominent role in the show. When Diggle only says a few lines of dialogue per episode so that Felicity can babble and always correct herself or rephrase her sentences, it becomes less humorous and ultimately feels like filler material. I miss the Oliver-Diggle one-on-one chats from early Season One. I like that Felicity's on Team Arrow, but she shouldn't be in every single episode and every scene involving one or more members of the team — a fact that applies to nearly every character on the show. That said, the addition of Roy to the team only means one thing: Dig is gonna be consigned to an even more meaningless position. *Sniff* I think they're planning to kill him off at some point, and are essentially just phasing the character out right now... removing him from the spotlight and making people sort of forget about what an interesting and enjoyable character he was, so that when he is euthanized, the pain will be easier to bear... *sobs*

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However, in the eyes of some parts of the "Arrow" fandom the ONLY character who is whiny, unbearable and unable to cope with her problems is apparently Laurel. Furthermore, her season two detractors sometimes forget that in the past she has shown that she can be a kind, supportive and forgiving person as well. I'm not saying that you have to love Laurel, but in my eyes there is a certain degree of double standards when it comes to how Laurel is judged in comparison to how other characters are judged. There is also a tendency to generalize, e.g. to talk in the first person plural ("we"), as if the "Arrow" viewers are one monolithic entity who all share the same views. There are certainly negative feelings towards Laurel in some quarters, but one shouldn't forget that the online fandom (as seen on forums like these) is just a miniscule fraction of the overall viewership. That's why I think that it may be a good thing not to generalize too much about viewer preferences and opinions....I'm talking about my own experiences on various forums/social media, where Laurel still has quite a few fans who like her and defend her.


"... the ONLY character who is whiny, unbearable and unable to cope with her problems is [...] Laurel." I'm Rob14, and I approve this (truncated) message.

But seriously, part of the reason I'm having trouble with Season Two Laurel is because Season One Laurel was so much better written, and seemed to look at situations with a greater degree of clarity. S2 Laurel is a like watching a train as it's about to become derailed... over abridge... spanning a gargantuan ravine: you know it's gonna be horrible, gut-wrenching, and gruesome, and if such matters touch you deeply, you do your best to avert your eyes and possibly pray for a miracle. I just don't really buy that Laurel changed so dramatically between seasons. Maybe she now has an extreme form of multiple personality disorder, in which one personality hates everyone and blames everyone for her own problems, another wants to be occasionally helpful (but not excessively so), and a third is timid and believes that everyone hates and avoids her despite the "niceness" of the first mentioned personality.

I judged Thea relatively poorly during the first half of Season One, but now that she's improved as a character I'm just less concerned with how annoying she was. Just like if/when Laurel becomes an enjoyable character for me, like she was in Season One, I'll have fewer bad things to say about her as a character. I won't deny that some people just hate Katie Cassidy (for reasons which I'm not altogether clear on), and that that is the primary motivation for their hatred of Laurel. I just find Laurel to be considerably worse now than she was earlier in the series. She took on tremendously humongous step backward for me, while everyone else has either improved or stayed about the same.

People do seem to generalize a lot when it comes to this show. Though, within reason, I feel it's okay to do often, since there are groups here and there that agree on this or that. So using words like "we" makes sense, since these opinions are shared by a large enough portion of the fan-base. For anyone to say, "and everyone who watches this show agrees with me one-hundred percent on..." would be completely absurd. How often does everyone unanimously agree on a particular topic? Furthermore, how often do people unanimously give consent for one person to speak on their behalf? So, for me, it's just obvious that when someone (or myself, if/when I've done it) writes using plural word forms, the meaning is not that everyone feels that way, but that there certainly are others who feel that way, besides the person speaking/writing.
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EjamiShipper
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Continuing about Laurel Lance/Black Canary post:
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I personally think Laurel's current storyline is a pretty realistic portrayal of someone going through a major crisis, which is exacerberated by substance abuse. I found a description of her current situation online. I will post it here, because it sums up my feelings perfectly:

This post conveniently forgets moments wasn’t gratingly abrasive, snarky and *****y and ignores why she acts in such a manner.
Her remarks to her dad were a combination of denial (nobody with a problem admits they have one) and outrage at him for trying to help her, remembering when their roles were reversed he pushed her away.

When she brushed off Oliver she was still mad at him for cheating on her, with her sister, and being indirectly responsible for Sara’s death. Sure that was five years ago but old feelings can be dredge up again under the right circumstances. It opened old wounds and she did not want him around. Not to mention his lack of concern for her led his affair and the death of her sister.

People in pain refuse help, especially if it’s from the people causing it, or people who ignore your attempts to help.

Everybody who is suffering think they’re the only one to suffer so greatly. The world does revolve around them because their life has become one great big pain. We all do it. Anyone who tells you otherwise is either a liar or trying to sell you something.

You’re sick of her acting like an angry, wounded person? Hopefully nobody close to you winds up an emotional wreck because you lack of empathy here is troubling.

Laurel has been likeable. With Tommy, her coworkers in season one, and Thea. She’s been caring, supporting, humorous, and willing to help.

Sure she hasn’t been any of that too much in season two, but that doesn’t mean she has never been that way.

If you don’t like the character fine, but be honest about it. Don’t cherry pick certain flaws and overlook her good qualities.

I am sure that Laurel will return to her old self after going through her crisis. The show is only in the first half of the second season and there is still plenty of room for character development and change.


I can only find Laurel's Season Two storyline realistic in the context of a person suffering from multiple personality disorder. At the beginning of the season, she seemed okay, and she and Oliver were even seen at one point together paying their respects to Tommy at his grave. She was okay then. She blames the Vigilante for Tommy's death... until she comes to the conclusion that it was actually her fault he died. Then she treats the Arrow like crap when she needs his help, despite her aforementioned conclusion. She tries to convict Moira of murdering five-hundred-and-three people (which I feel was a high point for her this season, since I wanted Moira to be convicted), but then can't face Oliver and Thea minutes later because she hates herself for prosecuting their mother... See what I'm driving at? She steals her father's prescription drugs — medication that makes his life easier after his altercation with Solomon Grundy — uh, I mean, with Cyrus Gold. But then when he catches her she acts like the pain he probably went through (losing a close friend and partner in the SCPD, knowing that someone on the inside betrayed them and tipped Gold off, and having to go through the day-to-day routine without relief from pain that can only serve as a reminder of what happened on that fateful day) pales in comparison to what she's been through, and that somehow he should just trust her implicitly, even though she's been stealing from and lying to him. I could go on and on, but I feel I've made my point. She had good qualities in Season One, but for whatever reason it's obviously just too convenient to make her a god-awful character in Season Two, simply to give her a path to becoming Black Canary. Not like she couldn't just have lost some major cases with the DA, some pretty obvious cases, and then have her quit because she wants to do more... and then get training from Arrow/her sister and eventually become another vigilante.

I don't think destroying one character in the eyes of at least part of the fan-base (I won't speculate on how many people agree with me on this) is exactly what needed to be done with Laurel. As I've already mentioned, it just feels like the rest of the cast has either improved or is about where they were at the end of Season One, and Laurel somehow is the only character who took an enormous step backward. It just makes her look incredibly self-centered, and thus very nearly all of her scenes are and have been considerably less enjoyable. It's not altogether convincing when so many characters have been through so much, and somehow have managed to do reasonably well, but then Laurel has problems that are exactly the same as those of other people, and suddenly it's the end of the world for her. Some of the main characters can be said to have experienced the same things, or even worse, than what Laurel has been through. Sorry, I just don't buy it — especially not after what we saw of her in Season One. It's like watching a completely different character! Now, maybe if she'd started out being abrasive, obnoxious, impolite, and all around unpleasant, it would be more believable to watch her improve. But we're supposed to believe that a character who in Season One displayed several heroic qualities (for definitive proof of this, see "Home Invasion", in which she takes up temporary guardianship of a young boy who just witnessed the murder of his parents, and is therefore a target for their killer) had to be torn down and made outright horrendous, so that she can be remade into virtually the same character she was at the start of the series? Again, I'm sorry, but I'm just not buying it. People do of course change over time, and sometimes people pull a one-eighty just to pull another one-eighty later on. Sometimes people change opinions, beliefs, and characteristics on a whim. But in the case of Laurel, the changes they've made to her as a character have been monumental and unnecessary, considering where she was throughout much of Season One.

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Please don't take this as a personal attack-you are entitled to your opinions. I just wanted to show that there are other, less negative, views and opinions out there...


No worries. I don't take it personally. :D Likewise, I hope you don't think my negativity toward the character of Laurel (not to be confused with the real-world actress, Katie Cassidy, whom I have nothing against) is in any way an attack directed at you. I just enjoy discourse, that's all. ^_^

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This post was brought to you by the "Laurel Lance Defense Team"! :D


The above responses have been provided in part by the "Laurel Lance Haters Association", the "Attack Laurel Lance Foundation", and the "Alliance To Prevent Laurel Lance From Ever Becoming Black Canary Or Otherwise Doing Anything Important On Arrow"... That last one's a name in progress.
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Not to get off topic but does this remind you of another show? WOW.
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Eamonn: I'm going to need Arrow to stop teasing the Suicide Squad already and actually give me what I want!

Your wish is Arrow's command! Episode 16 is called "Suicide Squad" and will be about, you guessed it, the Suicide Squad when Lyla recruits Diggle to work with the group, including Deadshot. This should end well. Oh, and the episode will feature Diggle-centric flashbacks to his time in Afghanistan, which will include Ted Gaynor.

SOURCE/MANY THANKS: http://www.eonline.com/news/507186/arrow-s-dangerous-new-foes-nashville-s-romance-drama-revenge-s-flashback-horror-and-more-spoiler-chat-scoop
Edited by EjamiShipper, Feb 9 2014, 04:51 PM.
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Julian
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Can I just say I like Felicity less after last week's episode? I kind of hope Moira takes her down.

I liked reading the thoughts on Laurel and it made me realize why I connect with Laurel so well. I had tried to put it into words before, but I think I can do a better job now. She seems more honest and real to me. She is dealing with a lot and is dealing with her own pain differently than others. Of course she feels abandoned and she also hates herself. She doesn't blame the hood for Tommy's death anymore. She blames herself and has turned to pills and booze. I agree with how she feels rejected by her father because he rejected her when he turned to booze after Sara's "death". She tried to help him, but he pushed her away. Now she's the one with the addiction, denies she needs help, and he's coming in trying to help. She is reminded of the times he rejected her help and it pushes her away further. She has forgiven Oliver, but with Tommy's death, she is most likely reminded of Sara's death and that's why she pushes him away - it's about Sara's death.
With knowing Sara is alive, she now has that stripped away. Laurel has every right to be pissed at Sara. Sara is an awful sister and I really wish she would actually die. Also, I have lost major respect for Oliver after he kissed Sara at the end of last week.

Felicity and Laurel deserve better than Oliver. I really did like Felicity and Barry, but he's getting his own show...
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Feb 11 2014, 03:18 AM
Can I just say I like Felicity less after last week's episode? I kind of hope Moira takes her down.

I liked reading the thoughts on Laurel and it made me realize why I connect with Laurel so well. I had tried to put it into words before, but I think I can do a better job now. She seems more honest and real to me. She is dealing with a lot and is dealing with her own pain differently than others. Of course she feels abandoned and she also hates herself. She doesn't blame the hood for Tommy's death anymore. She blames herself and has turned to pills and booze. I agree with how she feels rejected by her father because he rejected her when he turned to booze after Sara's "death". She tried to help him, but he pushed her away. Now she's the one with the addiction, denies she needs help, and he's coming in trying to help. She is reminded of the times he rejected her help and it pushes her away further. She has forgiven Oliver, but with Tommy's death, she is most likely reminded of Sara's death and that's why she pushes him away - it's about Sara's death.
With knowing Sara is alive, she now has that stripped away. Laurel has every right to be pissed at Sara. Sara is an awful sister and I really wish she would actually die. Also, I have lost major respect for Oliver after he kissed Sara at the end of last week.

Felicity and Laurel deserve better than Oliver. I really did like Felicity and Barry, but he's getting his own show...
Seriously? You like Felicity less? I can't say I feel the same way. I certainly despise Moira more though. Lawd, I had no idea it would turn out this way, that I would wind up hating her character, Moira. I actually think she is a great actress but when I find out how complicit she is with Malcolm Merlyn, I actually don't view her as a victim. It just seems like there is way more to this story (we've only scratched the surface, you know?) I think eventually they will begin to weave Malcolm "The OverLord of Starling City/Dark Archer" and see just how much he and Moira were involved. Well just how deep there connection is/goes.

I actually believe that as this storyarc goes on they might move Felicity out of Ollie's orbit. Well, making her more a subordinate then a possible "love interest" for now. I actually think it might be for the best at this point in the story. I feel like the most intriguing love stories are built on friendships first and those are the ones that last. Versus ones that are built on deception and lies: "Lauvier". They have too much "dishonesty and mistrust" go back and make this really work as a legimate relationship. Granted, they might give it a go for awhile and it might seem "ok and right" but in the long run they won't have what it takes to make it. They never have and that's why it failed the first time around, she used her father as a "tool" to get rid of her sister. Then after that she tried to rope in Ollie (I say in a more subliminal way - pressure him) into moving in and getting engaged. What did Ollie do? He ran and went on a boat trip with her sister, (to escape Laurel and any type of commitment to her) who did he really wanted to be with, not Laurel but Sarah. This is why they will always be destined to fail. Laurel was never Oliver's 1st choice and when you aren't a man/woman's first choice, that doesn't bode well for being #1 in there heart, mind, or a priority in there life.

I understand you're point on Laurel's addictions and how her sister's death, Tommy's death, even Ollie's death (and coming back to life) has effected her. On top of all that, she's had to deal with a father who's had severe addictions issues to cope with this loss, a mother who concentrated on all her attention and time "finding the supposed dead daughter". There were many ocassions that Laurel has turned to her father and tried to help him to attend meetings, get help. He turned her away. What is very interesting though, why Laurel is doing all of this, why she feels the need to "punish herself", why she feels the "need to take the blame"? It imho goes deeper then Sara, I think it also focuses on the fact she lost Sara, blamed herself, plus she blamed herself for loosing Ollie. Now that Sarah is alive, all the attention and love that was focused on Laurel, has know been shifted back onto "favored daughter" Sarah. Laurel is not only bitter, numb but 100% resentful. I totally get that but I honestly thought she'd be a little stronger and not turn to drugs as a coping mechanism. I thought it would be something like: men/sex or even shifting right into the storyarc of: being a vigilante/Black Canary.

I will never understand why Ollie goes back to rebounds so much, remember that chic, the cop (McKenna). He did it with every relationship so far I've seen him in. He did it with Laurel as well until they realized the "Undertaking" took place and Tommy died as a result. They pulled away and grieved in different ways.
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SOURCE/MANY THANKS/FULL CREDIT: http://www.greenarrowtv.com/stephen-amell-has-launched-his-own-youtube-channel/16385

Stephen Amell Has Launched His Own YouTube Channel
Craig Byrne February 7, 2014

Stephen Amell, who entertains many on Twitter and Facebook in addition to his role as Oliver Queen on Arrow, has now set out to conquer a new medium: He now has his own YouTube channel.

Check out his first video below. If you click on the video it will take you to his channel!

Edited by EjamiShipper, Feb 14 2014, 05:08 PM.
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SOURCE/MANY THANKS/FULL CREDIT: http://www.greenarrowtv.com/arrow-renewed-for-season-3/16404

Arrow Renewed For Season 3
Craig Byrne February 13, 2014

CW has picked up Arrow for a third season.

Here’s the press release from the network, with details about other shows that are also coming back. Sadly, the fate of Arrow’s Amell Wednesdays companion, The Tomorrow People, is not yet known.


THE CW ANNOUNCES EARLY PICKUPS FOR THE 2014-2015 SEASON

February 13, 2014 (Burbank, California) – The CW Network has ordered early pickups for the 2014-15 season for its hit series ARROW, REIGN, THE ORIGINALS, THE VAMPIRE DIARIES and SUPERNATURAL,which will be returning for its tenth season next fall. The series pickups were announced today by Mark Pedowitz, President, The CW.

“This season we’ve had great success with our new hit series THE ORIGINALS paired with SUPERNATURAL, giving us our best Tuesday nights in years. THE VAMPIRE DIARIES is #2 in its time period in the young adult demos, and with ARROW continuing to gain among young men, and REIGN growing its time period, we now have strong nights on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday,” said Pedowitz. “I’m very pleased to announce early pickups for all five series, and let our fans know they’ll have more great drama to look forward to next season.”

The CW’s lineup of breakout freshman hit series THE ORIGINALS and fan favorite SUPERNATURAL has doubled the network’s Tuesday night ratings year-to-year in adults 18-34 (+100%, 1.4 vs. 0.7), grown +150% in adults 18-49 (1.5 vs. 0.6), and gained +88% in total viewers (3.2 million vs. 1.7 million) versus last season. In its ninth season, SUPERNATURAL has seen double-digit increases year-to-year in total viewers and all key demos, and recently had its most watched episodes since 2010.

In its second season, ARROW is The CW’s most-watched series (3.9 million), and is #1 in its time period among men 18-34 (1.4). THE VAMPIRE DIARIES remains the network’s highest-rated show in all key demos in its fifth season, and season to date is ranked #2 in its time period among adults 18-34 (1.8 – tie), and #3 in adults 18-49 (1.8), ahead of ABC and NBC. Season to date, REIGN has improved its time period in total viewers (+4%, 2.35 million) and in women 18-49 (+8%, 1.3).

This season, both ARROW and THE VAMPIRE DIARIES have also seen a 25% jump in digital viewing versus last season, and SUPERNATURAL has seen a huge 57% jump in digital viewing over last year. THE ORIGINALS was also named the most social new series of the fall season by ListenFirst Media.
Edited by EjamiShipper, Feb 14 2014, 05:17 PM.
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Julian
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Feb 13 2014, 01:53 PM
Julian
Feb 11 2014, 03:18 AM
Can I just say I like Felicity less after last week's episode? I kind of hope Moira takes her down.

I liked reading the thoughts on Laurel and it made me realize why I connect with Laurel so well. I had tried to put it into words before, but I think I can do a better job now. She seems more honest and real to me. She is dealing with a lot and is dealing with her own pain differently than others. Of course she feels abandoned and she also hates herself. She doesn't blame the hood for Tommy's death anymore. She blames herself and has turned to pills and booze. I agree with how she feels rejected by her father because he rejected her when he turned to booze after Sara's "death". She tried to help him, but he pushed her away. Now she's the one with the addiction, denies she needs help, and he's coming in trying to help. She is reminded of the times he rejected her help and it pushes her away further. She has forgiven Oliver, but with Tommy's death, she is most likely reminded of Sara's death and that's why she pushes him away - it's about Sara's death.
With knowing Sara is alive, she now has that stripped away. Laurel has every right to be pissed at Sara. Sara is an awful sister and I really wish she would actually die. Also, I have lost major respect for Oliver after he kissed Sara at the end of last week.

Felicity and Laurel deserve better than Oliver. I really did like Felicity and Barry, but he's getting his own show...
Seriously? You like Felicity less? I can't say I feel the same way. I certainly despise Moira more though. Lawd, I had no idea it would turn out this way, that I would wind up hating her character, Moira. I actually think she is a great actress but when I find out how complicit she is with Malcolm Merlyn, I actually don't view her as a victim. It just seems like there is way more to this story (we've only scratched the surface, you know?) I think eventually they will begin to weave Malcolm "The OverLord of Starling City/Dark Archer" and see just how much he and Moira were involved. Well just how deep there connection is/goes.

I actually believe that as this storyarc goes on they might move Felicity out of Ollie's orbit. Well, making her more a subordinate then a possible "love interest" for now. I actually think it might be for the best at this point in the story. I feel like the most intriguing love stories are built on friendships first and those are the ones that last. Versus ones that are built on deception and lies: "Lauvier". They have too much "dishonesty and mistrust" go back and make this really work as a legimate relationship. Granted, they might give it a go for awhile and it might seem "ok and right" but in the long run they won't have what it takes to make it. They never have and that's why it failed the first time around, she used her father as a "tool" to get rid of her sister. Then after that she tried to rope in Ollie (I say in a more subliminal way - pressure him) into moving in and getting engaged. What did Ollie do? He ran and went on a boat trip with her sister, (to escape Laurel and any type of commitment to her) who did he really wanted to be with, not Laurel but Sarah. This is why they will always be destined to fail. Laurel was never Oliver's 1st choice and when you aren't a man/woman's first choice, that doesn't bode well for being #1 in there heart, mind, or a priority in there life.

I understand you're point on Laurel's addictions and how her sister's death, Tommy's death, even Ollie's death (and coming back to life) has effected her. On top of all that, she's had to deal with a father who's had severe addictions issues to cope with this loss, a mother who concentrated on all her attention and time "finding the supposed dead daughter". There were many ocassions that Laurel has turned to her father and tried to help him to attend meetings, get help. He turned her away. What is very interesting though, why Laurel is doing all of this, why she feels the need to "punish herself", why she feels the "need to take the blame"? It imho goes deeper then Sara, I think it also focuses on the fact she lost Sara, blamed herself, plus she blamed herself for loosing Ollie. Now that Sarah is alive, all the attention and love that was focused on Laurel, has know been shifted back onto "favored daughter" Sarah. Laurel is not only bitter, numb but 100% resentful. I totally get that but I honestly thought she'd be a little stronger and not turn to drugs as a coping mechanism. I thought it would be something like: men/sex or even shifting right into the storyarc of: being a vigilante/Black Canary.

I will never understand why Ollie goes back to rebounds so much, remember that chic, the cop (McKenna). He did it with every relationship so far I've seen him in. He did it with Laurel as well until they realized the "Undertaking" took place and Tommy died as a result. They pulled away and grieved in different ways.
I don't think Moira is the victim. I think Felicity is messed up for even confronting her with the issue thus putting Oliver in the position where he has to lie to his sister. Oliver blamed his mother for making a liar out of him, but she is not the one who put him in that position. It was all Felicity.

Laurel should resent her sister and has every right to. Sara kept the fact that she was with Oliver when Laurel believed he was her future. Sara could have told her sister the truth, but she didn't. I also don't think at this point Laurel has an addiction problem. She had a lapse in judgment because of the guilt she feels for Tommy's death.
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Feb 15 2014, 02:06 AM
EjamiShipper
Feb 13 2014, 01:53 PM
Julian
Feb 11 2014, 03:18 AM
Can I just say I like Felicity less after last week's episode? I kind of hope Moira takes her down.

I liked reading the thoughts on Laurel and it made me realize why I connect with Laurel so well. I had tried to put it into words before, but I think I can do a better job now. She seems more honest and real to me. She is dealing with a lot and is dealing with her own pain differently than others. Of course she feels abandoned and she also hates herself. She doesn't blame the hood for Tommy's death anymore. She blames herself and has turned to pills and booze. I agree with how she feels rejected by her father because he rejected her when he turned to booze after Sara's "death". She tried to help him, but he pushed her away. Now she's the one with the addiction, denies she needs help, and he's coming in trying to help. She is reminded of the times he rejected her help and it pushes her away further. She has forgiven Oliver, but with Tommy's death, she is most likely reminded of Sara's death and that's why she pushes him away - it's about Sara's death.
With knowing Sara is alive, she now has that stripped away. Laurel has every right to be pissed at Sara. Sara is an awful sister and I really wish she would actually die. Also, I have lost major respect for Oliver after he kissed Sara at the end of last week.

Felicity and Laurel deserve better than Oliver. I really did like Felicity and Barry, but he's getting his own show...
Seriously? You like Felicity less? I can't say I feel the same way. I certainly despise Moira more though. Lawd, I had no idea it would turn out this way, that I would wind up hating her character, Moira. I actually think she is a great actress but when I find out how complicit she is with Malcolm Merlyn, I actually don't view her as a victim. It just seems like there is way more to this story (we've only scratched the surface, you know?) I think eventually they will begin to weave Malcolm "The OverLord of Starling City/Dark Archer" and see just how much he and Moira were involved. Well just how deep there connection is/goes.

I actually believe that as this storyarc goes on they might move Felicity out of Ollie's orbit. Well, making her more a subordinate then a possible "love interest" for now. I actually think it might be for the best at this point in the story. I feel like the most intriguing love stories are built on friendships first and those are the ones that last. Versus ones that are built on deception and lies: "Lauvier". They have too much "dishonesty and mistrust" go back and make this really work as a legimate relationship. Granted, they might give it a go for awhile and it might seem "ok and right" but in the long run they won't have what it takes to make it. They never have and that's why it failed the first time around, she used her father as a "tool" to get rid of her sister. Then after that she tried to rope in Ollie (I say in a more subliminal way - pressure him) into moving in and getting engaged. What did Ollie do? He ran and went on a boat trip with her sister, (to escape Laurel and any type of commitment to her) who did he really wanted to be with, not Laurel but Sarah. This is why they will always be destined to fail. Laurel was never Oliver's 1st choice and when you aren't a man/woman's first choice, that doesn't bode well for being #1 in there heart, mind, or a priority in there life.

I understand you're point on Laurel's addictions and how her sister's death, Tommy's death, even Ollie's death (and coming back to life) has effected her. On top of all that, she's had to deal with a father who's had severe addictions issues to cope with this loss, a mother who concentrated on all her attention and time "finding the supposed dead daughter". There were many ocassions that Laurel has turned to her father and tried to help him to attend meetings, get help. He turned her away. What is very interesting though, why Laurel is doing all of this, why she feels the need to "punish herself", why she feels the "need to take the blame"? It imho goes deeper then Sara, I think it also focuses on the fact she lost Sara, blamed herself, plus she blamed herself for loosing Ollie. Now that Sarah is alive, all the attention and love that was focused on Laurel, has know been shifted back onto "favored daughter" Sarah. Laurel is not only bitter, numb but 100% resentful. I totally get that but I honestly thought she'd be a little stronger and not turn to drugs as a coping mechanism. I thought it would be something like: men/sex or even shifting right into the storyarc of: being a vigilante/Black Canary.

I will never understand why Ollie goes back to rebounds so much, remember that chic, the cop (McKenna). He did it with every relationship so far I've seen him in. He did it with Laurel as well until they realized the "Undertaking" took place and Tommy died as a result. They pulled away and grieved in different ways.
I don't think Moira is the victim. I think Felicity is messed up for even confronting her with the issue thus putting Oliver in the position where he has to lie to his sister. Oliver blamed his mother for making a liar out of him, but she is not the one who put him in that position. It was all Felicity.

Laurel should resent her sister and has every right to. Sara kept the fact that she was with Oliver when Laurel believed he was her future. Sara could have told her sister the truth, but she didn't. I also don't think at this point Laurel has an addiction problem. She had a lapse in judgment because of the guilt she feels for Tommy's death.
I see what you're saying.
But I think Moira is 100% in the wrong for being involved and letting Malcolm Merlyn, dictating "what will be" with her life and her daughter's life. In that logical sense, by blackmailing her all these years and for me that makes her a victim. When you aren't a victim, you stand up to the bully and let them know, "This is going to stop and you aren't going to control my life and tell me how it's going to be anymore." Therefore, Malcolm always held that power over Moira making her his victim.

I wanted to tell you that I re-watched an episode where Moira threathens Malcolm on Thursday night. She threathens him with Ra Gul and the "League of Assassins" who is Nessa's father. Do you remember the girl who came back to get Sara in the last episode that aired? 2x13 "Heir to the Demon" (They had a relationship going? Nessa and Sara. Ollie was surprised by it, seriously get a grip Ollie - anyway.)

Malcolm had broken into the library of the manison. Moira told Malcolm that she got in touch with an old friend of his Ra Gul - and he was quite surprised to here that Malcolm was "still alive." Malcolm was unnerved by the fact that Moira had the balls to go and contact his enemy (to protect there daughter and keep Thea from knowing that Malcolm was her father) but he indirectly threathened her and left.

Finally Moira stopped being Malcolm's victim in this episode, she decided what she wanted to fight for and that was her family. Her daughter and she was going to protect her at all costs. Malcolm was really pissed and he told her "This isn't over." (We know it's not!) SO, I am guessing we are going to see Arrow vs. Slade and also Malcolm Merlyn vs. The League of Assasins this season? Plus a possible mix of in fighting?

Now - do we see eye to eye on Laurel's addiction issues, I believe she does have a problem. Well right now to deal with the pain and problems she is going thru. Everyone has a different way of coping, is this temporary? I am thinking probably yes. Why, because they are going to move her into a new storyarc of replacing her sister Sara as the "Black Canary". Helping people, fighting the enemies of Starling City, forming a new friendship bond with the vigilante (Green Arrow) and Team Arrow (Diggle, Felicity, Roy and Thea) will probably go a long way. I think this will probably be gradual though. I don't believe she will be friendly and open with them at first. She will start fighting (solo) and then eventually team up with them as the season winds down.
Back to the plot point reasons from the story - Laurel arranged everything from her father breaking up the party (that Ollie had at his club that Sara was in attendance of) to intefere from Sara and Ollie to being together. While I do agree with you, Sara should have distanced herself from him. (I mean she is Laurel's sister, you don't steal you're sister's boyfriend. Cardinal unspoken rule). BUT in the long run it seems Laurel was forcing something that just wasn't there. I'm not saying that Ollie didn't have real feelings for her but they weren't strong enough - to resist temptation, to give Laurel a real lasting commitment. Again, I think Sara was wrong but when it's not there it's not there. But then again, Laurel had to sense something was "seriously flawed" in their relationship - to keep forcing things. If someone really loves you, won't they suggest things too? Why wasn't Ollie eagerly saying "Why don't we get married? Why don't we buy a house?" Again Ollie is a set of damaged goods himself but deep down, he wants love just as much as someone else. I am thinking (eventually) definitely not in the current storyarc, if he met the right person, he would be able to commit.
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On Felicity, was she wrong for getting involved and telling Ollie and about Malcolm? She confronted Moira first didn't she? While it might seem like it's not her place to say anything - well you have to take an outside "POV" on this.
What if she never told Ollie? Then he finds out she knew all along and never told him. He resents her and never speaks to her again. She is part of his "inner most circle" (Team Arrow) and they have a "bond/level of trust" that differs from other people that work together and circle of friends. While it may seem like Felicity was doing to wrong thing to certain people, she certain was doing the right thing for and according to Ollie.

Well that's the way I am looking at it right now.
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