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Required Nude Swimming Photos, Authenticity, Relevance; E-Mail Exchange With Brad Thompson, Researcher
Topic Started: May 5 2012, 01:05 AM (39,681 Views)
Noel1835

Below is a series of e-mail exchanges I had with Brad Thompson, owner of the website "Historical Archives For Males Swimming" https://sites.google.com/site/historicarchives4maleswimming/home/archives---mid-20th-century-to-current/photographs. I gave some links to photos I thought Brad would find very useful for his site, but he said he'd already seen them or they weren't relevant. Several looked very relevant and very authentic to me. I'm afraid I didn't understand his final reply, but maybe I'm missing something. I invite comments from readers of this forum. Thanks, Noel1835.

To: Brad Thompson, Apr 8, 2012

Here are a couple links that have photos that your site doesn't. I thought you might want to add them, if you think they're authentic.

The first one seems to download differently, depending on how I access it. Unfortunately, as you can see,there's more porn than historical nude swimming photos,so you may have scroll through it a while before you find
them. But there are some there, and to my untrained eye,they look pretty authentic.

http://thenakedswim.blogspot.com/2011/06/why-were-boys-required-to-swim-naked.html?zx=5e2fd9cfe5ee23e6 [To NSF: I later realized this seems to be mostly porn not related to vintage nude swimming, so you may not want to bother with it.]

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090802030104AAzzSqr

I think it's great what you're doing, sorting out fact from fiction. Keep up the good work.

Noel

From: Brad Thompson, Apr 15, 2012
<brad.associates@gmail.com>

Thanks for the kind note and links. I had seen most of those photos before. The one's I prefer are those that are not at, say, a nudist club, or, simply naked men/boys in the outdoors, *unless* it is a vintage photo from an established swimming area open to the public, and where only the men swam nude. But I always love getting these links.

I also like the discourse on the Yahoo Q&A. People writing it saying it's all BS just goes to tell you how little folks know (and believe) about this matter.

And I'm glad you find it informative and interesting. I hope it remains a work in progress that can grow over the years.

Apr 16, 2012

Brad,

Thanks for getting back to me. I realize the link I gave you was one with a lot of porn and irrelevant pictures. The one below, I see by the numbers, though it has the same title, is apparently different. I just downloaded it and it looks like the photos are vintage, indoor with women present with nude males, in non-nudist settings. They look authentic and relevant to me, but I'm no expert.

http://thenakedswim.blogspot.com/2011/06/why-were-boys-required-to-swim-naked.html?zx=b8c4104a696db878

Did you click on the photo link on Yahoo Answers? That looked like a vintage school picture to me, not a nudist pool. If you think it was the latter, why? Just trying to learn real from fake.

Sorry to bug you about this. No hurry in replying. Again, I'm just trying to find out what's authentic and what not.

Noel

From: Brad Thompson, 4/18/12

Thanks again,

I've seen the more contemporary (color) photos. Over time I've learned some are doctored/photoshopped and some are real. The real ones, however are of a European naturist club (nudists). They had swim meets for the men and women. The girls were also shown in other photos, and, were also completely nude. Photos of the general pool area show a mixture of nude and clothed people, both genders.

But what the site really focuses upon is not necessarily CFNM scenes with naked men swimming, but instead, historical, pictorial evidence and imagery that shows an era when men did indeed swim and bathe in open, public waters naked, even when women were present. More importantly, it shows that for boys under the age of 12, there is both pictorial and documented evidence that in many parts of the UK and Europe, it was routine for such boys to swim and play stark naked with girls, who were always clothed, even to where into the 20th century, it was mandatory for boys to participate in swim classes naked, and those same classes, one might find (albeit rare) female instructors.

That's the essence of the site. So if you find anything, I'd be greatly obliged to you!


May 3, 2012

Brad,

I see the color photos that appear to be taken at nudist venues.

I also see black and white/monotone pictures of boys at swimming pools with clothed women present.

One appears to be of two teenagers at a swim meet. One is wearing goggles and bending over, as if getting ready to dive. The other has them up, on his head, and looks like he's getting his breath. A woman, apparently some sort of official, is sitting behind them clothed.

Another is of a boy of about 12 to 14, with a woman behind him, maybe an instructor. He's on a diving board, bending over, almost touching his toes.

The one linked to Yahoo Answers, also monotone, looks to me like a school setting, not a nudist venue.

Do you believe these are authentic or probably faked?

I accept your statement that even if real, these aren't of interest to your site. You're not interested in men/boys in indoor swimming pools such as high schools, colleges or the YMCA, but outdoor "open" public waters, with women present. Not to argue or complain, but that wasn't the impression I got from the overwhelming subject matter of the text portions of your site.

I don't know why the scenarios you're interested in are any less "CFMN" than the ones you aren't.

Not mad. I'll bring my questions to some other people who might be able to answer my question. (May I reproduce our e-mails there?)
Thanks,
Noel

From Brad
May 3, 2012

I think there's a misunderstanding about the site. The site wasn't created to share CFNM photos, but to establish historical evidence as to certain matters that have been hotly debated and denied. Photos that support this include photos of swimming classes of boys/men all in the nude. Those photos you provided that attest to that were appropriate for the site. Some of them were already on the site, or, included in the download folder. The photos that were taken after, say, 1970 may indeed be CFNM, but they provide nothing to establishing historical precedent. In all cases those photos were over nudist gatherings, or, photoshopped as subsequent to that period, nude boys in their teens being monitored by females (outside of nudist venues) would have been headline news, and I would have found them.

Finally, photos taken of just naked boys not participating in large, orchestrated activities (i.e. showering or standing around outside somewhere) aren't needed.

Thanks for the input, and yes, please feel free to share this email.

[I didn't want to pester Brad anymore, but I don't understand why the apparently black and white photos I linked to weren't *very* relevant to the overwhelming subject matter of his site. Any explanations here?---Noel1835]
Nations, regions, generations, cultures, families and individuals have all compartmentalized semi/nudity in ways that were acceptable and made sense to them, but shocked, offended or surprised other nations, regions, generations, cultures, families and individuals. In the final analysis, it may all be arbitrary.
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BradVSFW

Noel,

This is Brad, researcher and creator of the site you reference. The intent and purpose of the site is fully described on it's home page:

https://sites.google.com/site/historicarchives4maleswimming/

The site was created to present factual evidence and historical reference to debates about the preponderance of men swimming nude in public places beginning in the first half of the 20th century and going back to the 1700s. It reflects upon the double-standards of society during those eras, it addresses polices that required men to swim nude at public pools whereas women were given swimsuits, and, to address the heated debate about the presence of clothed women when males were swimming in the nude.

Unfortunately, when pictorial documentation of under-aged boys swimming in the nude have been posted on various forums, our overly politically correct, self-appointed moral police attack the posts claiming they are kiddy porn. This in turn has resulted in the posts being deleted. It is also why I created the site to control its existence.

I am only interested in actual historical archives that evidence one of the following: 1) historical photos of swim classes that evidence the policy of nude swimming for males, or 2) historical photos or videos showing males in larger groups in open swimming holes, lakes, rivers or public pools swimming nude. And if any of these depict the presence of clothed females among the nude male swimmers, it is rare pictorial evidence showing the double-standards of the era.

First, nudist recreation where everyone - men, women, boys and girls - are all nude is not exceptional. There are thousands and thousands of such photos available on many websites and blogs dedicated to family nudism. The fact that there are groups and organizations that practice nudism of both men and women is not consistent with the historical purpose of my site. There are a number of contemporary photos around showing males swimming nude with clothed females present, but if when does enough research on the origins of those photos, you will also find that the same swim meet featured nude females as well as clothed males. They are all part of FKK or other European gatherings of nudists for swim meets.

Second, photos showing a lone boy or two standing there naked by themselves, or alternatively, a photo that some took of a couple of boys showering are not what my site is about. Posting those type of photos beg for intervention by authorities searching for pedophiles and sites dedicated to kiddy porn. The only time they are relevant is when it can be established that they were published in a mainstream magazine like Life, or, in a local newspaper for all to read because in so doing, it clearly evidences a double-standard of bygone eras. My site does have such photos, such as one of the swim courses for boys at a public school wherein nudity was mandatory with another photo of the girls swim class wherein they are all sitting there dainty and proper in their swim attire (it was published in the local paper).

There are millions of sites on the Internet that are repository of nude photos of all types - their purpose is not to reveal historical precedence, customs and culture of past eras, but instead, simply show nudity for the sexual interest in looking at naked people. I apologize if you mistook my site for being one of those - it is not. I hope folks can see the historical relevance of it, and the incredible archives it presents.










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Noel1835

Brad,

I can only repeat my statement that I believe several of the photos in the websites I linked you to met your criteria perfectly. If you want to explain in detail why they don’t, why you think they’re scenes from Eurpean mixed-gender nudist swim meets (which they don’t lool like to me at all), I’d be willing to listen. I asked Nat why he thought you found the photos I suggested for your site were irrelevant and he said he didn’t know why, so I’m not only one puzzled by your selection process.

Joseph Centauri, a few months back posted masses of vintage required-nudity swimming photos on the old, mysteriously deleted, NSF. They were from the 30’s to the 70’s, one from as early as 1916, with formal, posed photos of nude men and swim-suited women. A few that really blew my mind were yearbook swim team photos, at least one in which genitals were perfectly visible. One NSF member said he thought they looked like they were from a college yearbook, but they looked jr. high or high school to me. Anyway, these pretty much answered questions I’d been asking here and there on forums and proved to me that the practice was a lot more outside the social norms I grew up with than even your site documents. So though I’d always be interested to learn of a little more evidence, I don’t really need any more convincing that it happened. I am interested in other “psycho-social” questions surrounding it though.

I understand the fine line you have to walk in avoiding accusations of pedophilia constructing your site, and maybe it’s unavoidable, but I don’t understand how you can really do what your saying your trying to do and avoid all associations with Clothed-Female-Naked-Male fetishism, or why you should really care that much. Further, the larger phenomena can’t be separated from nude kids & teens by it’s very nature, but the age of males involved is incidental to it. There were college age men who did it too. I think your site is well done and has a lot to offer but I think your concerns about respectability, for lack of a better term, severely limits its potential. But I guess others can take a look and decide for themselves.

I’m not a strict gender-egalitarian so I don’t have the ideological axe to grind that you do. It didn’t matter to me at all that I had to be a skin in PE and girls didn’t and they got to see my naked torso. I didn’t feel “violated” by that or that it was “unfair”. But, everybody’s got their own emotional responses to these things I guess…

I think the Joseph Centauri who posted all the stunning pictures on the old NSF is the same one that’s on Ipernity, so maybe you’d like to get in touch with him and see if any of his photos would be useful to you. Not saying they would be, but you may find them worth a look... Your requirements are too unclear to me, so I won’t bother you with anything. Good luck.
Nations, regions, generations, cultures, families and individuals have all compartmentalized semi/nudity in ways that were acceptable and made sense to them, but shocked, offended or surprised other nations, regions, generations, cultures, families and individuals. In the final analysis, it may all be arbitrary.
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BradVSFW

Thanks for the comments Noel.

First, as with you, I'm *not* a "strict gender-egalitarian" and I don't, as you say, "have an axe to grind". If anything upsets me, it is more in the area of hypocrisy, and, a number of people posting on boards in a manner that is authoritative and as though there is no room to doubt their recitation of "facts", when in reality, their give themselves far more credit in knowing history than they deserve.

And that is a lot of what my site is about: https://sites.google.com/site/historicarchives4maleswimming/

One thing to mention, a number of the photos on the site you referred me to are already on the large reference page of photos on my site. They are authentic, and have historical relevance - so thank you for sending me there. I particularly like any photo that predates the 1950s as they are typically very informative and evidentiary.

Photos taken after, say, 1960 (usually in color) may not lend themselves to any particular point, message, or, something that provide evidentiary proof regarding historical events. Virtually all the mixed-gender nude scenes depicting the clothed-female/naked-male scenes, which are authentic, are actually such nudist events such as the Naturist Olympics. Here's a website that discusses this and the venue:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1227369/Anyone-breast-stroke-Our-writer-loses-body-hang-ups-compete-naturist-Olympics.html

You may recognize the venue in the above article as many so-called "CFNM" photos come from there, or similar FKK (German nudism) type of athletic meets. The photos are often selected by CFNM enthusiast because they capture a specific moment when the male athletes are nude, but the female spectators are clothed. However, if you search and find the full portfolio of photos from these events, you'll also find many that also depict nude women at the same event. Thus, they do not prove any point regarding the practice of mandatory nude swimming for boys while females are allowed to be present, they are simply photos of nudists while in the presence of clothed people, who are also probably nudists.

On my site you will find a link where you can download a compressed folder that has renderings and photos, and another that has a ton of historical documents, all pointing to the same theme. I invite you to download them as I believe I have exhausted about every corner of the Internet in getting pictorial evidence of a trend that is now often long forgotten.

But if not, I very much appreciate being pointed to where more might exist!

The site I created evidences that the practice of forcing boys to swim nude while girls did not have such requirements faded quickly in the 1960s for two reasons. First, filtration systems evolved and were far more efficient, at which point in time the


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Noel1835

Here are a bunch of pages from some kind of yearbook---high school? college?---that show nude male swimmers, alone, with males only, and with clothed females at meets or practices.

http://vintagemalenudity.tumblr.com/post/20961730798

They're obviously not nudist venues. So, the proof mounts. I don't mind whether Brad is interested or not for his site.
Nations, regions, generations, cultures, families and individuals have all compartmentalized semi/nudity in ways that were acceptable and made sense to them, but shocked, offended or surprised other nations, regions, generations, cultures, families and individuals. In the final analysis, it may all be arbitrary.
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Mark

You can enlarge the photos by clicking on them.
I could be mistaken, but it seems to me that in one of the pictures there is even a Catholic nun present !
Click on the left photo of the third line, then have a look at the top right picture.
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Noel1835

Okay. Most of this site appears to be "vintage" beefcake porn. Mixed in with it, are photos, very apparently, from the RNS period---schools, yearbooks, meets, etc.

In the series of photos linked below, there is a photo in the first row, 3rd picture, far right.

http://vintagemalenudity.tumblr.com/post/20166842190

It is obviously taken from the same event as the photo I repeatedly tried to draw Brand's attention to, linked below, 5th one down, brown-toned, the most obvious evidence being the same clothed girl in both pictures.

http://thenakedswim.blogspot.com/2011/06/why-were-boys-required-to-swim-naked.html?zx=b8c4104a696db878

Clearly, the score board is IN ENGLISH---Blue Sponsors, White Sponsors, etc. It is not in German, therefore NOT an "FKK" photo. Of course photos can be manipulated, but these look very "vintage" to me. My impression is that they've been scanned from newsprint.

I find neither of these photos on Brad's site, even though they fit Brad's stated criteria. The strength of a site like Brad's is that it has more documentation than many of these other sites, which seemed more designed for titillation, but I feel he's clearly rejecting LOTS relevant photos. As many photos as possible should be included on a comprehensive RNS site, weeded out from "beefcake" and "naturism", which discredit the documentation effort by muddying the waters. It's obvious there's plenty that's being ignored or rejected that would be very good for his site. But it's up to him. It's his site.
Nations, regions, generations, cultures, families and individuals have all compartmentalized semi/nudity in ways that were acceptable and made sense to them, but shocked, offended or surprised other nations, regions, generations, cultures, families and individuals. In the final analysis, it may all be arbitrary.
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Nat
Member Avatar

Well Noel, since you are so interested in this subject- why don't you establish such a forum?
You can do it here at ZetaBoards or numerous "blog" sites that are now on the net.
~ Posted Image talk to me- click >HERE< Posted Image ~
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Noel1835

Unfortunately, I'm probably one of the most computer UNsavvy people on the face of the earth. When it comes to posting photos I often get very, very confused. I can post links just fine.

There's nothing nasty or bad about any of this---it's a very valid and interesting cultural phenomenon---but I don't trust my ability to keep myself anonymous, and I would want to do that. Basically, my major questions have been answered. I've seen the proof. As long as these sites stay up, and they're not suddenly erased, I can point to them when somebody, including old nude swimmers, said it never happened (female audiences of nude male swimmers). That's enough for me.

By the way, this site has many of the photos Joseph Centauri sent to the old NSF.
Nations, regions, generations, cultures, families and individuals have all compartmentalized semi/nudity in ways that were acceptable and made sense to them, but shocked, offended or surprised other nations, regions, generations, cultures, families and individuals. In the final analysis, it may all be arbitrary.
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Noel1835

Unfortunately, I'm probably one of the most computer UNsavvy people on the face of the earth. When it comes to posting photos I often get very, very confused. I can post links just fine.

There's nothing nasty or bad about any of this---it's a very valid and interesting cultural phenomenon---but I don't trust my ability to keep myself anonymous, and I would want to do that. Basically, my major questions have been answered. I've seen the proof. As long as these sites stay up, and they're not suddenly erased, I can point to them when somebody, including old nude swimmers, said it never happened (female audiences of nude male swimmers). That's enough for me.

By the way, this site has many of the photos Joseph Centauri sent to the old NSF.
Edited by Noel1835, Oct 10 2012, 01:18 AM.
Nations, regions, generations, cultures, families and individuals have all compartmentalized semi/nudity in ways that were acceptable and made sense to them, but shocked, offended or surprised other nations, regions, generations, cultures, families and individuals. In the final analysis, it may all be arbitrary.
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