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| Some complete basics - where to start? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Dec 10 2014, 10:19 PM (2,010 Views) | |
| Emma Hornby | Dec 10 2014, 10:19 PM Post #1 |
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We are researching the Old Hispanic ('Mozarabic') liturgy. This is a Latin Christian liturgy that was celebrated in parts of the Iberian peninsula from Visigothic times (7th century) until the end of the 11th century. It went on being used in a handful of Toledo parish churches after that and we have manuscripts through to the 14th century from there. The problem for us is that we cannot transcribe the notation. It does not have intervallic content and it has no pitch information. So (with about 20 exceptions of chants that have been preserved in pitched notation), we cannot sing any of this music now. But the liturgy and its chant is really interesting to us because: - the theology of the liturgy is distinctive, drawing on the theology of (in particular) Augustine of Hippo, Gregory the Great, Isidore of Seville etc. The meanings of the biblical chant texts are often made explicit in prayers that accompany the chants, and those prayers tell us what those chant texts were supposed to mean to the congregation. By looking at these chant and prayer texts, we can gain a rich sense of a particular medieval Iberian theology, which is rather different from what we are more used to nowadays. - the melodies can contribute to the meaning. There are cadences we can identify, so we can work out how the text was punctuated musically. Some syllables have more notes than others, so we can get a sense of the pacing of text. This might give a very particular experience of that text - lingering on a particular word might help to draw out a particular theological meaning. Some syllables have 200 or more notes, and then we can think about what it means when text is entirely left behind for a while - is that an opportunity for spiritual ecstasy of some kind? Or is it a moment for purely musical display? Or something else? - the kind of melodic language in operation here is also interesting. It sometimes feels like a cut-and-paste job, with familiar snatches of melody being combined in different ways in different chants. How might that sort of combinatory musical language impact the way that the music carries the text, or the way we respond to the music? - groups of chants get combined within the liturgy, building cumulative meaning across a celebration. They can be related both textually and musically (or not!). This is a small sample of some of the elements that we hope you might like to ask more about, and that might inspire you. We are not looking for you to write pretend medieval music. Instead, we hope to be able to communicate our understanding of the aesthetic/devotional/spiritual potential of this material so that you can think of ways of creating an equivalent aesthetic or spiritual or devotional impact now, either entirely freely (the instrumental competition) or within a Christian liturgical context (the choir competition). |
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| Emma Hornby | Mar 23 2015, 06:53 PM Post #31 |
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I expect the Laud has been influenced at some point in the past by the muslim culture of southern Spain, so it's not surprising at all if there are connections to middle eastern tunings. The Old Hispanic chant, however, originated in a Christian rather than Muslim context, and the music theory we have (which is not very much - but we do have bits and pieces in Isidore of Seville's writings) suggests strongly that the Old Hispanic chant used a diatonic system with pythagorean tuning, like other parts of western europe. Of course, that's not the same tuning system as we use today, but it does indicate a cultural similarity with other parts of western Europe. |
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| bohad | Apr 20 2015, 01:29 PM Post #32 |
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Hi! My name is Adrian Bohner, and I am intrested in your competition. I am curious, where I can find scores or recordings, which could help me to get know the chants. Can you give me any tips? Thanks |
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| Emma Hornby | Apr 20 2015, 02:53 PM Post #33 |
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Welcome to the discussion! You can get to know the only chants we can transcribe in here: http://bibliotecadigital.jcyl.es/i18n/consulta/registro.cmd?id=14947 (the music starts on page 73). There are about 23 chants that can be read. Further up this conversation, you'll see attachments to some of my posts which have editions on 5 line staffs of a few of those same chants, if that's easier for you to read. That's the lot, though, I'm afraid. All of the other thousands of chants only survive in early medieval neumes - these squiggles that go up and down on the page to show the direction of the melody, but which don't tell us anything about intervals. If I were to write Jingle Bells in this notation (and you did not know the melody of Jingle Bells), all you could deduce from my notated version would be that the melody goes Note-same-same Same-same-same Same-high-low-high-high High-same-same-same-same-low-same etc etc (and actually, I've given you a bit more information than our early medieval notation can really show - each of the notes with a capital letter there would probably actually come out as noideawhatthepitchofthisisrelativetothepreviousnote. We are doing all sorts of pattern matching work - so we are getting really accustomed to the combinations of neumes that appear at certain types of cadences, or at the beginning of a chant or a phrase, and are deducing things about how they work (how they interact with the number of syllables and the accent pattern; whether they are cadences that come at the end of the chant, or just little interim ones in the middle - that sort of thing). We can share any of that work with you that you'd like to hear about - or maybe it is enough for you to know that we are working with a musical language which has that sort of hierarchy of cadences that are stronger and weaker, etc. |
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| Emma Hornby | Apr 20 2015, 03:00 PM Post #34 |
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This youtube video has some of the genuine melodies: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPzxD68Sjz8 (there are lots of videos called "canto mozarabe" which are really the late 15th century chants, most of which were invented in the 15th century and have nothing at all to do with the 10th century melodies) There are some old recordings with my student choir. The quality (of performance and recording) are pretty bad, but they give you a different impression of the interpretation than the previous link. So here are some links: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzYOTJRdfh4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZIf01yXS4M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWO412fuPXg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkCN8bSNHD0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLulPqLmN3c |
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| bohad | Apr 20 2015, 03:06 PM Post #35 |
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Thanks for the lot of useful information. A. |
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| Emma Hornby | Apr 20 2015, 03:53 PM Post #36 |
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Just shout if there's anything more you want to know - I know all these discussion threads can be a bit overwhelming, and we don't mind saying the same thing twice if you can't find the information you need elsewhere on the forum
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| bohad | May 23 2015, 05:40 PM Post #37 |
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Hi! I'm Adrian Bohner, and I have a question about the "recreation". If I used a typical chants-beginning (f.g. D-F-G) as a basic motif, it would be acceptable (naturally, it would not be a simple variation)? Regards, Adrian |
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| Emma Hornby | May 23 2015, 07:00 PM Post #38 |
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Yes, you could use a typical chant motif, although it might be worth selecting something from one of the 21 pitch-readable Old Hispanic chants because then there's a more direct connection with the material we are working with. There are links to the edition of them around the forum - just shout if you can't find one. |
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| bohad | May 23 2015, 07:23 PM Post #39 |
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Thanks the answer. My solution was that I listened to a lot of chants (your Youtube links), and I put the most intresting parts into score. Of course I saw numerous edited score on this forum. A. |
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| mauro.agagliate | Jun 29 2015, 08:39 AM Post #40 |
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Good morning everyone! In the first page of this thread, Emma linked images of the transcriptions of some chants (12/23/2014). Can I see online the original pages of the chants about these images? - de_manu_marked_up.tif - in_pace_performing.tif - dies_mie_2013.jpg Probably can I find them in the book 'El canto mozárabe'? Thanks very much! Mauro |
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| Emma Hornby | Jun 29 2015, 03:24 PM Post #41 |
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De manu is on folio 146r here: http://bvpb.mcu.es/es/catalogo_imagenes/grupo.cmd?posicion=297&path=26408&presentacion=pagina And (with pitched notation) on folio 30v in here: http://bibliotecadigital.rah.es/dgbrah/es/consulta/resultados_busqueda.cmd?id=25457&materia_numcontrol=&autor_numcontrol=&presentacion=mosaico&posicion=23&forma=ficha Dies mei is on folio 277v here: http://bvpb.mcu.es/es/catalogo_imagenes/grupo.cmd?posicion=297&path=26408&presentacion=pagina And on folio 26 here: http://bibliotecadigital.rah.es/dgbrah/es/consulta/resultados_busqueda.cmd?id=25457&materia_numcontrol=&autor_numcontrol=&presentacion=mosaico&posicion=23&forma=ficha In pace is on folio 135v here: http://bvpb.mcu.es/es/catalogo_imagenes/grupo.cmd?posicion=297&path=26408&presentacion=pagina and on folios 29v and 33v in here: http://bibliotecadigital.rah.es/dgbrah/es/consulta/resultados_busqueda.cmd?id=25457&materia_numcontrol=&autor_numcontrol=&presentacion=mosaico&posicion=23&forma=ficha and on folio 200 in here http://www.bl.uk/manuscripts/Viewer.aspx?ref=add_ms_30851_fs001r (they are all in some manuscripts still held in the abbey of Santo Domingo de Silos as well, but none of those are freely available online) |
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8:25 PM Jul 11