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| Pacem Meam | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Aug 5 2015, 07:26 PM (223 Views) | |
| FranciscoCarbonell | Aug 5 2015, 07:26 PM Post #1 |
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Dear all. Does anyone know how can I get information about the chant "Pacem Meam do Vobis"? Here is a wonderful recording made by Ensemble Organum conducted by Marcel Peres. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYhriBNcIz8 (Pacem Meam starts on 43:55) That what I need are historical notes, analys and if there's a transcription Thank you so much! |
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| Emma Hornby | Aug 5 2015, 07:53 PM Post #2 |
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This is a recording made of the chants preserved in the late 15th century. They were compiled by Cardinal Cisneros, based on what was known at the time about the Old Hispanic rite. In general, the texts ARE close to what we know of 14th century Toledo practice, which is preserved (for Lent only) in two manuscripts. The liturgical assignments are also close to the ones from 14th century Toledo. But the melodies in the Cisneros cantorales (which is what Marcel Peres has (loosely) based his interpretation on) bear little or no relation to those 14th century manuscripts. When we look at earlier manuscripts - the 9th-11th century manuscripts from Christian Iberia - some of the texts are shared with those 14th century Toledo manuscripts and with the Cisneros Cantorales, but by no means all of them, and not with the same liturgical assignments. The melodies of the 9th-11th century manuscripts are a little bit related to the 14th century ones, but really not at all related to the Cisneros ones. There seems to have been a break in the musical tradition, which may be because the Mozarabic rite was very marginal by the 14th and 15th centuries - very few people will have known and remembered the complex melodies. Or maybe all the experts died of plague or something (!). In any case, I'm afraid the recording by Marcel Peres is an act of imagination rather than any sort of representation of the sound world of medieval Iberia. If you look here http://bvpb.mcu.es/es/catalogo_imagenes/grupo.cmd?path=26408 at folio 201, you will find a version of this "same" chant (it's a verse of the chant "Pacem meam do vobis") dating from the very beginning of the 10th century. Might be interesting to look at that while you listen to Marcel Peres and see if you can make any sense of the relationship (I doubt there will be one that is discernable, but would be interested to hear if there is!). It's the chant sung at the Peace during the Mass. |
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| Emma Hornby | Aug 5 2015, 07:56 PM Post #3 |
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Oh no, wait, that verse isn't in the Leon antiphoner - it is only in one manuscript related to Toledo. I'll look it up for you. |
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| Emma Hornby | Aug 5 2015, 07:58 PM Post #4 |
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It has no notation. The whole chant in the 11th century Toledo manuscript goes: Veniam ad vos dicit dominus non vos relinquam orfanos pacem meam do vobis pacem meam relinco vobis alleluia alleluia. VR Pacem meam do vobis pacem. That's it! |
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| FranciscoCarbonell | Aug 5 2015, 08:08 PM Post #5 |
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Thank you so much Dr. Hornby. I am trying to figure out how close is the Pere's version with this manuscript. This is very helpful. Does a transcription (more or less) from what that Peres does a valid option to enter the competition or would be a wrong path to follow? Thanks again. |
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| Emma Hornby | Aug 5 2015, 08:18 PM Post #6 |
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I'd probably look instead at some of the medieval melodies that survive in pitched notation. There are just over 20 of them, and we have them in pitched notation from the 11th century. Then at least you can be pretty sure that the melody bears some resemblance to something that was sung in the middle ages - that certainty really isn't there for the Cisneros materials (I looked at the Threni, which is a lamenting genre sung in the Mass, a bit like a Gregorian tract, and they were TOTALLY TOTALLY different to the medieval melodies). I will bump up some information about the pitched melodies - it'll be near the top of the discussion threads in a few minutes! |
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8:25 PM Jul 11