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| Kor'kron Dark Shaman 25-man heroic strategies. | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jul 24 2014, 08:10 PM (256 Views) | |
| Gryzemuis | Jul 24 2014, 08:10 PM Post #1 |
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Our next challenge is defeating the Kor'kron Dark Shaman in heroic 25-man mode. Kardris and Haromm. Maybe a little strategy discussion ahead of the raid itself could be useful ? First some guides, with the basic information. The written guide on Icy-Veins: http://www.icy-veins.com/wow/kor-kron-dark-shaman-detailed-strategy A different written guide, from MMO-champion: http://www.vengeanceking.com/raid-encounter-guides/siege-of-orgrimmar/vengeance-king-boss-guides-siege-of-orgrimmar/korkron-dark-shaman/ Original here: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1369020-Kor-kron-Dark-Shaman-Heroic-Guide A written guide by Evrelia, with 2 videos, one about normal and one about heroic mode. Scroll to the bottom of the page for the video about the heroic fight. http://www.evrelia.com/korkron-dark-shaman-guide/ A short one, but with a Weak Aura export you can use. http://www.we-guild.eu/strategies/korkron-dark-shaman/ It seemed that in our previous attempts, the Kardris-group was doing fine. The problems were with the Haromm-group. Melee and healers in the Haromm-group died frequently. It seems to me this is first problem we need to fix. From my personal view, as melee dps, I feel very vulnerable during the fight. One reason is that I feel that melee has very little room to manouver. That increases chances of someone making a mistake (not moving away when you have the Foul Stream). But also it makes it impossible for the others to compensate by moving into safety even when someone makes a mistake. Also, when the Ashen Walls are placed, melee is very close to the Ashen Walls. If we move slightly too far when moving, we take extra dmg from the Ashen Wall. And lastely, because we are in the corner between two walls, our cameras are harder to control. I understand why our tanks try to stand as far in the corner as possible. The goal is to bring Haromm as far away from Kardris. And I understand why the tank try to position the Ashen Walls along the 2 real walls. So that they can stay in the corner, minimize moving, and keep everything stable. However, imho a stable, but dangerous situation is still dangerous. I've seen movies on YouTube where the Haromm-tank uses the whole upper platform and the whole slope towards the upper platform. It seems that you can position Haromm even at the bottom of the slope, and still having him out of reach from Kardiss. From what I've seen in those videos, this kind of positioning gives everyone, melee and healers, a lot more room to manouver. Here are 2 examples: - druid feral tank pov: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sql9Q6Nj0_o - rogue pov: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPqWnU7DxGE In the YT-movies I've seen, the tank runs up the slope, on the platfrom. And then tanks Haromm in the middle of the upper platform. Not in the corner. The healers can stand in the corner, right-side from the tank (as seen when approaching the platfrom), close to the gate. They place the Iron Tombs there. Every time they place the tombs, they run away, but come back to that spot, to keep the tombs close together. Basically the right side of the platform and slope are for the healers. The melee stand behind the boss, in the middle. When one of them gets Foul Stream, he runs to the left. Some pictures. ![]() This is the position just after we dragged Haromm up to the platform. The purple line shows where the tank (orange dot) and Haromm (grey dot) will be. At first they are at the end of the line. During the fight they will slowly move down the slope, back in the direction we came from. There is a lot of room to the right. This room can be used by the healers (white dots) to position the first few waves of Iron Tombs. Until we get the Ashen Walls. ![]() Here we see a Foul Stream on the melee. The player with Foul Stream moves to the left. Either a little bit, or a lot. He should have all the space on the left of the raid to manouver. You can see that the healers (white dots) have placed the first Iron Tombs (grey diamonds) to the far corner of the platform. Once the tombs have been placed, they can move closer again to the tombs. So the next wave of tombs gets positioned very close to the existing tombs. If a healer gets the Foul Stream, he has all the space at the right side of the raid to run away from the other healers. Melee or tanks should not run the risk of getting hit. ![]() This is the position of the first Ashen Wall. Look at the first pic, where the tank was tanking Haromm. The Ashen Wall will spawn where Haromm was. As soon as it has spawned, the tank move along the purple line, away from the first Ashen Wall. When Haromm has been dragged far enough (10 yards or so), the tank turns around, runs through Haromm, and positions herself with her back to the Ashen Wall. Same position as before, but just shifted 10-20 yards. Note that the healers now have a little less space to place the Iron Tombs. They still stay at the right side of the raid. All the space at the right side is still for them. ![]() Haromm has spawned another Ashen Wall. Everybody has moved another 10 yards or so along the purple line. Everything stays the same, just the position has shifted again. I think this will give us a predictable strategy where everybody in the melee group knows what will happen, and knows what to do. Less opportunity to make mistakes. And more room to move our cameras. I've read that the Foul Stream usually targets a player who does not have Toxic Mist. That means you can know in advance if you are likely to be targeted by Foul Stream or not. Toxic mist is a DoT that will be constantly on a few players. When it runs out after 30 sec, a few other players will get the DoT. The Dot can not be dispelled or removed. But can be mitigated by some classes's abilities (rogue's Feint and CloS e.g.). Keep your eye open. And help your healers. If the Ashen Walls are too far apart, and we move down the slope too quickly, maybe the tanks can move backwards a bit into the previous Ashen Wall, to cause the next one to spawn closer. Note sure how much damage and risk this is to the tanks. (I think Mari did this anyway). Iron Prison is an ability from Kardriss. I assume that means that only the Kardriss-group needs to deal with Iron Prison, right ? And the Haromm-group doesn't have to deal with it at all. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I believe that the Haromm-group is not hit by Falling Ash, right ? So they don't need to know about it. Edited by Gryzemuis, Jul 25 2014, 01:08 AM.
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| Mari | Jul 25 2014, 08:23 AM Post #2 |
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Even then when the "place the Foul Stream left" was used people still panicked and placed on top of healers. Which ended up killing people and caused a wipe (one of the reasons at least). As long as people stay calm, and manage to move themselves when someone fucks up the Foul Stream it's actually a none issue.
On top of wrongly placed Foul Stream killing people it was Falling Ash + DoT and/or Foul Stream what brought people low enough for healer not being able to heal them to full before all the effects went off. Which also should answer your question about will the Falling Ash hit the raid group up top or not - it DOES hit the upper group. But to counter that gonna try what we used on our 1% wipe boss despawn attempt on 10HC - to stop DPs at 68% and 53% to wait for tombs and then few seconds before tombs will land, we burn: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1369020-Kor-kron-Dark-Shaman-Heroic-Guide?p=24860658&viewfull=1#post24860658 You need 4 people total to be out of melee range, either 4 healers or 3 healers and 1 ranged DPS, of Haromm to make 99% sure that the tombs will land there, not on top of melee. In all honesty the group on Haromm needs more healers then the one on Kadris. I do believe hat if we'd start with the ashen wall placement like they were on the guide/picture, instead from the corner.. We'd force the bottom group on Kadris to move away in the end part of the fight some place else, cause the bosses will be too close together. You cannot place the Walls so far apart from each other nor start from where the images show. FYI I was not taking damage fro the wall when I "stood" in it, cause the image of a bear is larger then the actual spot I can be hit by the elementals, so don't trust your eyes. And Standing in Ashen Wall is dangerous and will kill tanks easily coupled with the other mechanics of the fight. In essence the problem of the wipes up top were due to people panicking with their debuff/tomb and/or the Fouls Stream. I know it is easier said then done (to stay calm when you have all that shit on you), but w/o staying cool it's an hard fight to master. Mots probably I will be tanking Kadris.. Just cause... I over aggro much, even white dmg or no damage at all, will get the bosses attention when my bleed crits. Edited by Mari, Jul 25 2014, 08:33 AM.
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| Gryzemuis | Jul 25 2014, 03:37 PM Post #3 |
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It is my belief that the best strategy in a WoW fight is the strategy where the risks of wiping are minimalized. Not highest dps strategy, not smartest strategy. Just the simplest one with the least risk. So I always look at the risky parts in a fight. I wiped the Haromm group once last week. I don't think I panicked. I was just a bit slow to realize that I had the FS. But what made it worse is the fact that in that corner, we had very little room to move. Basically both melee and healers need to stand in a line behind each other, melee in front, healers behind. Even at Immerseus, it seems we can't do that properly: the whirls on the floor are never placed as they should. Also when the person with FS need to move left, the others have no space at all to move right (if necessary). In the corner, we have only 1/4th of the space to move left, while otherwise we have half of the space to move. What is also a huge factor, at least for me, is the camera. When we stand in the corner, the camera will zoom in. Giving me less room to see what's going on. I have to move my camera to the side. I never like that. Then when you move, there is a risk that the camera hits something. And it zooms in again. I don't know about you guys, but when the camera starts moving in and out by itself, I lose overview. Not panic, but it just takes a split second to realize what happens and adjust. Most players seem to prefer high open spaces because of this. It might be a detail, but I think it's a factor. Maybe we can try my suggested positioning (not in the corner) a few times ? See if it helps ? If not, we can go back into the corner.
Maybe someone in the Kardriss-group can call out Falling Ash on Mumble ? I'm sure DBM gives a warning, but DBM gives lots of warnings, and a voice warning might be better. Edited by Gryzemuis, Jul 25 2014, 03:40 PM.
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| Mari | Jul 25 2014, 07:59 PM Post #4 |
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I am used to that my camera does anything from 90-360 spins, zooms in and out at random, so I don't notice it anymore, guess I've adapted. I have a large weak aura w/ a falling fire ball which tells me when falling ash will land. And ye, it shows even if you are no where near Kardris. I was just giving my few points on the strat. you posted and I up for trying new things, just but skittish about few things due to my 10-man xp. Edited by Mari, Jul 25 2014, 08:00 PM.
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| Gryzemuis | Aug 16 2014, 03:10 PM Post #5 |
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I am curious what people thought about the new strategy we tried last night at the Dark Shamans. Thanks for giving it a try. Personally I thought it was an improvement. I finally thought that the fight is doable. I did not see melee killing each other with Foul Stream. And I did not see healers killing melee with Foul Stream. Not a single time. That alone is a huge improvement, imho. http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/Mk8dJYQ1TvVFwyhj First try with new strategy: 37%, second try: 6%, third try: 23%, fourth try: 68%, fifth try: 6%. I think we need a little more experience in execution. And maybe some small adjustment. And then we can have this boss on farm. There were 2 things I saw that could be improved. 1) I sometimes saw healers place Foul Stream wrong. This was after 40% or so. When there were already a few Ashen Walls placed. The tanks and Haromm had moved from their initial position. Suppose there is a clock at the boss. Tanks stand at 12 o'clock. Melee stands at 6 o'clock. Before Ashen Walls, healers stand at 4 o'clock. And move to 2 o'clock to place Iron Tombs and Foul Stream. After Ashen Walls started, the healers have to move more south, because there will be Ashen Walls at 2 o'clock. That means healers have to stand at 4 or 5 o'clock. That is fine. When an Foul Stream comes on a healer, that healer should move to 3 o'clock. And the other healers can move to 5 o'clock for more safety. However, what I saw a few times was that the healer with Foul Stream moved from 4 o'clock to 5 o'clock. That could still hit the other healers at 4 o'clock. And even hit the melee at 6 o'clock (if they don't temporarily move to 7 o'clock). I think the healer with Foul Stream should always move north, not south. 2) The tanks did their best to place the boss as far north as possible. Both before and after Ashen Walls. That helps prevent the two bosses being too close (or in line of sight). Good. However, it also increases risks. And imho, when developing a raiding strategy, the goal is not to optimize the good things. The goals is to minimize the bad things. To minimize risks. Bosses die when nothing goes wrong. Not when everything goes best. (Few exceptions of course, like enrage timer on Norushen). Before the Ashen Walls, tanks were standing in between the carts. That limits there movement maybe ? Or camera ? I don't think it's necessary. In any case, I don't think it is a problem for melee or healers. After one or more Ashen Walls are placed, the tanks positioned themselves very very close with their backs against the Ashen Wall. I don't think that's necessary. And I think it increases risk. If a tank makes a wrong movement, he gets hit by Ashen Wall. Also, when melee move to the right or left (dodging a Foul Stream from other melee or healers) they get pretty close to the Ashen Wall. When they use a special ability (for a rogue that would be shadow-step or killing-spree), and the boss is turned, the rogue hits the Ashen Wall. Not sure if other classes have the same problems. Anyway, I think the tanks could afford a bit more distance between the Ashen Walls. Because we place the first, or first two/three Ashen Walls in the corner, we run zero risk to getting to low on the slope in the end. Small note: it seemed the 4 NPCs at the start of the fight were never really positioned on top of each other. Making it harder to cleave. That's a dps loss. At 90%, the dogs were never dead. In previous weeks it went better from my pov. No idea why. Iron Tomb placement was nearly perfect. Only when a tank is moving the boss in the corner to place the first 2 Ashen Walls, there is a risk of bad Tomb placement. Because melee should/did not follow the tank. Because it is risky to get close to Ashen Walls. Maybe we should follow the tank a bit more. So Iron Tomb gets put in the corner. Or to force Iron Tombs on one of the healers. Else the melee should briefly follow healers during those 5 seconds. This fight now went from "absolutely hate" to "might be fun". And again, I'm very interested to hear from the others in the Haromm group what they thought. Especially the 2 tanks and the healers. ======= Sheesjh, I hate how the forum does not allow you to post 2 post back-to-back. And folds them into one. Even if there's a week in between them. Ridiculous. ======== Last week we 1-shotted the Dark Shamans. That was good ! However, imho the kill was a bit messy. There are 2 opportunities to improve. 1) Tank and Haromm positioning. When we ran up the hill with Haromm, our tank (who's name we will not mention, because it was Doomdark :)) ran straight to the corner. I asked him to not stand in the corner (we've been over this a hundred times, so I really don't understand what happened). The tank did move. But not to the right spot. He stood halfway the corner and where he was supposed to stand. The result was that there was not enough room on the right side of the boss, near the gate. The healers should have placed their Iron Tombs there. But now they couldn't. The healers did a great job improvising. But Iron Tomb placement was less clean than we did before. Still, they managed to stay alive, and we got the kill. So all was well. 2) Iron Tomb placement when the tanks run to the corner to position the first 1 or 2 Ashen Walls. Our tanks try to position the first 1 or 2 Ashen Walls in the corner near the gate. To try and win distance from Kardriss. This helps. But also creates a potential new problem. What do the melee group do ? a) They can follow the boss (and tank). This gets them in the corner, close to the Ashen Wall that pops up. I thought this was a risk. And thus should be avoided. b) They can stay at their spot, and wait 5-10 seconds until the tank returns with Haromm. I thought this was better. I changed my mind. The problem is the Iron Tombs. Iron Toms are placed on players out of melee range first. That are our 4 healers. When the tank moves, but not the melee, suddenly the melee can (and will) get Iron Tomb. Result: Iron Tombs placed in the middle of where the melee is supposed to stand. Therefor it's probably better to follow the tank when he runs into the corner. Note, this is the spot where healers are supposed to place their Tombs, so it's messy anyway. I still think it's better to not place the first 1-2 Ashen Walls in the corner. A lot less risk of things going wrong. But it seems I am the only one here. Edited by Gryzemuis, Aug 29 2014, 02:26 PM.
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