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Sopranos; *SPOILERS WARNING*
Topic Started: Jun 3 2007, 11:53 PM (470 Views)
Bman
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I'll cut ur balls if you do. Just link in a PM or something :shifty

THIS IS FOR SPECULATIVE SPOILERS AND ALREADY-OCCURRING SPOILERS, NOT FUTURE SPOILERS. :shifty
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Give me the link.


And that joke back in season 4 was more to start up the whole NY/NJ beef. Paulie didn't intentionally tell the NY family about what Ralphie said. He only told Johnny Sack because he believed Johnny to be his friend and wouldn't discuss anything they said on friendly terms outside of the dinner table, etc. But Johnny did just the opposite and basically just used Paulie as a source for information. I doubt that will have anything to do with the ending, but Paulie has been getting closer to NY. He gets jealous anytime some one in the Soprano family gets a nod or a simple gesture over him so he might not see that he's treated fairly. I also do find it a little odd Paulie was left out of the hit list despite him being Tony's underboss. He is the underboss, right? Sil is the consilgeire (whatever), Paulie is the underboss, and Bobby was just a Capo?
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Tony had a chance to kill Paulie. He killed Chris, but not Paulie. Not only was Paulie close with Johnny Sacks, but Phil never mentioned him as someone he wanted to be killed. Plus, when Paulie was asked to take care of Phil, he fucked up. Those are a few of the signs I was talking about. There are more, I just can't think right now. It's a possibility.

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Agreed, that is a legit possibility. He could have easily tipped Phil right there.
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One reason why Paulie told Johnny Sack about the Ginny Sac joke was that Paulie was bitter at Ralph for some argument late in season 3. He was mad that Tony took Ralph's side.

MINOR SPOILER:

From what i saw in the brief Episode photos of the last episode, Uncle Junior will be in it in some way.

END MINOR SPOILER


Anyway, I think Paulie will kill everyone in their sleep and ride off with Phil. Chase has done a great job in making the series unpredictable. I don't remember anyone including myself ever getting a long term prediction right with this show.
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I predicted that AJ would be a little bitch. Turns out I was right.
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:lol :rollin
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WOOooOOoooO SOPRANOS

WOOoOOOOOO
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..........what a shitty ass way to end it.
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The Jesus
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Um, stfu vegetard.

What a perfect way to end it, even if it did leave us wanting more.
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A bit too artsy of an ending for me, although I can appreciate what he did there.

Remember Bobby's conversation with Tony.

Or, he lives and The Sopranos becomes a movie in 2 years.

Bit of interpretation.


I thought it was taking the "respectable" route instead of ending it in a slaughter or an FBI crackdown. Bit of a middle ground, but I can respect it. 80+ episodes of story you dont need to blow your load if you dont want to. Personally, I'm not sure what I would have done so I can't really hate it or be an apologist to people who can't understand it or have different visions.
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I heard Journey, that was good enough an ending for me.
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:lol Tommy

Mysty, you're a moron. Sopranos has to be one of the greatest shows ever and they end it with a black screen for people to interpret what happens? Bullshit. Yay for eating onion rings. >_>
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The convo with Bobby is about never seeing it coming and not hearing it coming. Hence the black and quiet.

I think this ending will be looked upon better once people re-watch the season and series. Everyone was hyped up for bloodshed and stuff, which isn't really what the series is about. It's an element but I wouldn't call this show a violent show as a fundamental descriptor.

It's the story of a family, and a mafia family. Intertwined. The Mafia business was done, and the onion ring scene is to wrap up the united family. If Tony died, he died a loving father/husband and things are good. If he did not die, things are good and he lives as a loving father/husband.
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Now that I think about it, ending with Journey may have been my favorite of the show's entire run.
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They had some good ending songs.
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OwNaGe66 (8:29:37 PM): I think Bobby's talk with Tony has more to do with Bobby's death.
OwNaGe66 (8:29:53 PM): The ending was just a simplistic ending to get people thinking.
BMANolot (8:29:54 PM): it has to do with both of them
BMANolot (8:30:09 PM): moreso tony because the ending actually illustrates it
BMANolot (8:30:15 PM): bobby saw it
BMANolot (8:30:27 PM): it was tony reflecting to himself through bobby

I take back the interpretation part upon thinking about it. There's no interpretation. I'm pretty sure Tony died. Unless HBO wants a money-grab or something in a few years and Tony lives (like Tony Montana living for the Scarface game, etc).
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My only problem is that I'd be much happier to KNOW and SEE what happened. The ending adds suspense, but for what reason? Is there going to be another season? NO. The series is done with forever and the ending we saw did me no justice. >_>
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THE SOPRANOS IS NOT SCARFACE. IT NEVER HAS BEEN.

Why the fuck were you expecting some massive shoot out and some crystal clear ending? <_<

Whatever you think happened, happened. How about that?
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This article articulates it as best as it can possibly be articulated:





Don't stop believing
Posted by BY ALAN SEPINWALL/STAR-LEDGER ENTERTAINMENT STAFF June 10, 2007 10:39PM
Categories: Television
Who knew that the music of Journey could be used so ironically?

At the end of an otherwise satisfying "Sopranos" series finale, creator David Chase threw one final curveball at his audience. In his first episode as both writer and director since the series pilot, Chase sent Tony to a family dinner at Holsten's ice cream parlor in Bloomfield. Many previous seasons had ended on a Soprano family tableau -- A.J. even quoted something Tony said at Vesuvio back in the season one finale -- but this one was edited to seem far more ominous.

As the sounds of Steve Perry wailing on "Don't Stop Believing" filled the soundtrack, Tony kept eyeing the door and the other patrons as first Carmela, then A.J. arrived, while we spent an interminable amount of time watching Meadow double park. The camera kept focusing on a shady-looking character at the bar with more than a passing resemblance to the late Eugene Pontecorvo (down to the Member's Only jacket) who was studying Tony, but then his advance on Tony turned out to be a trip to the men's room. Meadow finally parked, dashed towards Holsten's, the camera cut back to Tony in close-up looking at something, Perry sang the words "Don't stop," and.¤.¤.

.¤.¤. nothing. No hint of whether Tony was looking at Meadow or something else entirely (perhaps the feds coming to arrest him after Carlo Gervasi apparently flipped), no music of any kind, just a fast cut to black and then the closing credits playing out in complete silence.

Whether you were waiting for one of the more popular predicted endings -- Tony in Witness Protection, Tony killed by Phil's guys, Furio and/or the Russian coming back for revenge, what have you -- or just for an ending, period, chances are that cut-to-black had you pulling a William Shatner in "Wrath of Khan," pointing your face at the heavens and bellowing, "CHAAAAASE!!!!!!"

And yet the finale, both the first 55 minutes of it and that sadistic last scene, fit perfectly with everything Chase has done on this show before.

Did we get the violent fireworks of last week? Absolutely not, as the only deaths of the hour were Phil Leotardo (gunned down at a gas station, then, in a gruesome indignity, his skull crushed post-mortem by his rolling car), and A.J.'s SUV (which caught fire while idling near a pile of leaves). But that's been the pattern of every season: the major action goes in the penultimate episode, while the finale is saved for quiet reflection and the odd whacking or two.

So Tony and Butchie DeConcini negotiated a peace treaty -- with the tacit understanding that Tony's guys could eliminate the out-of-control Phil -- a third of the way through the episode, and the bulk of the hour focused on Tony's lower-case family.

Janice faced life without Bacala (and a lifetime of torment for Bobby's kids), and once again invoked the name and memory of Livia Soprano, going about in pity for herself. Janice and Tony each visited Junior in the run-down state facility he was banished to when his cash ran out, but Corrado didn't recognize them.

Meadow planned her wedding to Patrick Parisi and badly wounded Tony (without realizing it) by telling him that she decided to quit med school and become a lawyer because of her relationship to him.

And in the episode's centerpiece -- and the origin of its title, "Made in America" -- A.J. continued his political awakening, only to have Tony and Carmela seduce him back into the same comfortably numb existence he used to have.

When some of the guests at Bacala's wake started discussing "American Idol" and "Dreamgirls," A.J. harangued them for focusing on entertainment fluff.

"The world. Don't you see it?" he complained, then later said, "It's like America. This is still where people come to make it. It's a beautiful idea. And then what do they get? Bling and come-ons for (stuff) they don't need and can't afford?" He talked of enlisting in the Army, though he wavered on whether it was to make the world a better place or just to get a job as Donald Trump's personal chopper pilot.

Yet by episode's end, A.J. had abandoned his newfound morality in favor of a shiny BMW, a job as the "development executive" for Little Carmine's movie company and his parents' promise of his own nightclub to follow.

From the start, Chase has used "The Sopranos" as an indictment of modern American values and how, time after time, we all sacrifice principle in favor of self-interest. Maybe A.J. had achieved enlightenment or maybe not. But Tony and Carmela couldn't have their little boy risking his own life in the military (they wanted him to get the discipline without the risk), so they anesthetized him back into the materialistic lifestyle they understand so well. This is what America makes today, Chase seemed to be saying: permissive, selfish parents and kids who mimic them.

Back to that final scene. Without it, we have a completely reasonable finale, one that provides closure on enough plot threads (the war with New York ends, Paulie is promoted to the captaincy of the Family's lucrative construction business, A.J. finds new direction, etc.) that the few left open (notably whether Carlo flipped and what that means, legally, for Tony) don't particularly sting. It's the "life goes on" ending I'd been speculating on for months.

But then, but then, but then .¤.¤. then Chase has to do what he loves to do more than any other man in show business: completely mess with his viewers' expectations (and their heads). I don't consider it a cliffhanger, something to set up a movie, as I doubt there will ever be a movie (and if there is, it'll be set in the past). He did it because he hates the conventions of TV series narrative in general, and putting a bow on things in particular.

That's why the Russian never came back, why the Melfi rape plotline was dismissed with a single word ("No"), why none of the FBI's previous rats ever amounted to anything, etc. He's convinced the audience doesn't need to be spoon-fed, to the point where he might go for a non-ending like this, something so jarring, so abrupt and so filled with misdirection (my guess is there was no danger at all, that Tony was simply watching Meadow's entrance) that it might come across like an insult to the audience who have stuck with the show through thick and thin.

Somehow, though, it feels like the perfect final note. Why wouldn't a show that's taken such pleasure in rewriting the rules of storytelling -- from making a sociopathic thug its hero on down -- go out in the least conventional way possible? It may be maddening, but it's what David Chase does.

Some other thoughts on "Made in America":

A theory proposed by a reader of the NJ.com Sopranos blog using the handle Lorbnash: the nine episodes of this season have represented the nine circles of Hell from Dante's "The Divine Comedy." The fourth circle, for instance, is for the greedy and the miserly; the fourth episode was Tony and Hesh's gambling showdown. The seventh circle is where the suicides go; A.J. took his dip in the family pool in episode seven. The ninth circle is for the traitors, and Butchie implicitly betrayed Phil. (For added fun, reader Joe Adler pointed out the similarities between the Eugene Delacroix painting "The Barque of Dante" and the Annie Leibovitz promotional image on the season five DVD set. Google them both if you want your mind blown.)

Lots of surrogates and callbacks throughout. Junior confuses Janice and Livia (and Janice and Nica). Tony uses A.J.'s shrink (a leggy, coolly professional woman in the Lorraine Bracco mode) as a Melfi stand-in. A.J. quotes Livia's "Always with the drama," and later Tony's line from the Season One finale. Paulie believes the cat from the safehouse has some supernatural connection to Christopher and also notes the bad history of the captains in charge of Jersey construction (though he left out Jimmy "The Rat" Altieri).

Another "Whatever happened to Gary Cooper?" moment: the tour bus drives through Little Italy while the guide explains how the thriving neighborhood is now essentially a single block of shops and cafes -- so tiny that, when Butchie gets too wrapped up in a phone call to Phil, he wanders out of Little Italy altogether.

Who knew Agent Harris had such a dark side? He's conducting an affair with his counterpart at the Brooklyn field office, and he's actively rooting for Tony to take out Phil.

Finally, thanks for all the questions, theories and compliments you've sent me over the years as I've written about this show. "The Sopranos" is over, but our coverage of it has a few days to go -- and my work as the Star-Ledger's TV critic has a lot longer than that. Look on Tuesday morning for David Chase's thoughts on the finale (as much as he'll share, anyway), and the "Sopranos" blog (blog.nj.com/alltv/) will feature at least two reader mailbags as the week moves along, as there's still much to discuss. This has been fun.
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Just stfu and read it. ^^^
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Mysty, you're a dumb dumb. I never said I wanted to see an all our war. I just wanted to see what happened, instead of look at a black screen for the final 15 seconds.

Bman, that article is great. He wrote about closure and that's exactly what I don't think I got from this ending. Sure, the black ending is different, but I'm not about to read a book and decide to finish reading it five pages before the end of it. That's what happened here and I just disagree with it, that's all. I'd be much happier to see an ending.
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Which is what Chase did not want :shifty

Might as well give you the ability to make the black ending into what you want than give you "and life goes on"... shady guy walks back to his seat, show ends. That works for some people but others like you demand something. Personally, I think there is a certain closure there because he does look up at Meadow's arrival, and as such the 4 Sopranos are united and on good terms in a place they haven't been at since Season 1. Season 1 was pretty much the last time they were united.

You're welcome to like or dislike it I guess. I'm just trying to make sure everyone understands Chase's vision with that article. I think he's doing interviews on Monday or Tuesday, but I doubt he will say much unless the backlash is godawful.
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Either they could have been united as family without any problems...OR THEY COULD HAVE BEEN BLOWN AWAY! The world will never know. =\

BTW, those onion rings were poisoned.
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Paulie was the rat. Hence his hatred of the cat. Cat's chase rats, as Tony says.

Patsy was the rat. Tony scared him in the scene with their two families.

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That article sums it up well but damn if I'm still not a little pissed at David Chase. He drove me nuts, answered nothing, and left me wanting more. I feel like a rape victim that strangely grows an attraction for their attacker. I hate it that its so open ended but its like the best possible way to go out for a show that changed television. To prevent myself from going nuts, I'm just gonna pretend that Tony and the NY family get along fine and have prosperious business deals together and he no longer has panic attacks, Paulie does a good job running construction, Silvio recovers, AJ turns into a successful movie producer/club owner and acts as a front for the Family, Carmela continues to know her role, and Junior dies a quiet, peaceful death.


BTW, I get the feeling there will be a lot of backlash.
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Melfi was the rat.


Oh, and I hope Chase gets whacked. You know there's some real mob guys out there that hated the ending.
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I thought it was curious that Melfi was not seen. Not saying she's a rat or anything but pretty much every character got some screen time.

Tony spilling his guts to AJ's clinician >
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I thought it over more and I'm leaning more towards the side of the ending being bullshit. My main thought about this is don't leave your audience wanting more unless you plan on giving them more at some point. There's no need to have a "non-ending" if this is truely the last of the series. All it does is piss off the majority of fans. No one gives a damn about artistic vision or messages either. They've already drawn what lessons they want to learn from the series. Just end it. Hell, 90% of the people that watch it just see it as mafia show and nothing more so using the show as a metaphor for social commentary is useless. You're preaching to a wall. And the other 10% that would see the message? They can pick philosophical stuff from a piece of shit on sliced bread so who cares what vision you're going for. The entertainment industry is not the place to preach about stuff, mainly because people see shows as entertainment and nothing more. End the damn show Chase. All you've done is successfully piss off the majority of the fans of the show. So yeah, the ending is bullshit. The open-endedness is complete bullshit unless there is something further down the road. He could still have successfully gotten his message across and had any kind of closure put in for the masses but he didn't. Instead of going out with a "Bada-Bang", you went out with a Bada-BOOOOOOOOOOO! Vaffanculo David Chase



BTW, his music selection sucks. Journey is only good after 1am when everyone at the bar/party is trashed and begins to sing along.
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Tony dies at the end.

That's why it cuts to black (which is foreshadowed by his conversation with Bobby).

That mysterious fellow at the bar comes back from the bathroom and pops him in the back of the head.

Happy?
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