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| The Promise of Redemption | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jul 23 2006, 05:28 AM (540 Views) | |
| RumsGone | Jul 23 2006, 05:28 AM Post #1 |
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Captain
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Jack: Ahhh, the dark side of ambition. Norrington: I prefer to think of it as the promise of redemption. I was thinking about this today. I know I've posted elsewhere about how DMC really is about the choices that people make, and the consequences that they must then live with. Virtually every major character is faced with choices which then affect others...many times in not-very-pleasant ways. In some ways, this could fit with Jack's comment...the dark side of ambition. Each character has some goal they are striving for, yet each ends up being forced into some rather dark choices. Jack, of course, wants to save his soul, and seems willing to sacrifice even his friends to do so. Will wants to save his father, and is willing to condemn a friend to death in order to destroy Davy Jones. Norrington will sacrifice his own sense of what's right, in order to regain the life and power he once knew. Liz will condemn someone she cares deeply for in order to do what she thinks is right. Even Davy Jones sacrificed his own heart, and the fleeting joy that life brings, in order to end his pain. And don't get me started on Beckett...he's dark ambition personified. All of them are fulfilling their own needs, but at what cost? Ah, but there it is...the promise of redemption. That somehow, the ends will justify the means. That doing wrong (just a little), will lead to greater rewards. But also, each character seems to find something inside that allows them to do what's right in the end. For Jack, this has become THE most important thing. His sacrifice in going down with the Pearl was absolutely heroic. And now he's in need...not redemption in a biblical sense, but just redemption in the sense that while he's a troublemaker and a bad-boy, he's also a good man--one that his friends are now willing to risk all in order to save. And they are willing, in no small part, due to their own conflicted motivations. Will still wants to save his father, and redeem him from an enternity of servitude. Liz wants to redeem herself from the guilt of what she did to Jack. Norrie...well, I hope Norrie finds it in himself to see that the promise of redemption isn't always what it seems. And even Davy may find redemption...on his organ, there's a mural of angels flying towards a ship. It seems like even that holds a sort of promise of redemption. I wonder if we'll see Davy freed at last of his pain, and finding some sort of comfort. Oh, and as for Beckett...I'm also reminded of his words to Mercer, when he comments about Governor Swann---that people can always end up making a deal--even for something they never hoped to have to sell. I find the themes in this movie quite fascinating--much deeper and more spiritual in many ways than the first. I've brought such thoughts up in other threads, but it seems that the exchange between Jack and Norrie on the beach really summed it up so well.
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| d-rose | Jul 23 2006, 07:12 AM Post #2 |
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Swabbie
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Rumsie... so glad you started another wonderful discussion, I need those. First of all I must say you see the themes in this movie so very clear. Personally I can sense these themes, but I'm never really able to lay my finger on it nor to put them into words as well as other do- you in this case. So thank you for doing that and making it able for me to think things over into this direction you showed us. :bow: Like I said elsewhere -I haven't read the responses to that yet- I think there's also the matter of what exactly is Right. (Right is what's good for one person? To society? Or as it is according to the law?) But that's not what is to be discussed here, now is it.
I agree, but... doing so was because of his dark side of ambition, a side that perhaps wasn't so dark for to him at that moment it meant doing a Right Thing... I mean, I don't think he did go under with the Pearl in expectation that his deeds would be forgiven. No, the one and most important reason to do so was the knowledge that this would be considered as The Right Thing and he would therefor be seen as a Good Man after all. (Forgive me the capitals, but I want to show these are important concepts) That's what he was after, he wanted to know what that tasts like; so it's part of his (dark, for it isn't as honest because of the wrong reason) ambition. However I do think he truly cared for his mates and was glad he could save them, but I think that was merely some extra advantage. The main reason why he did it was this newly discovered ambition. Not that he would have chosen this way to gain the status of a good man if he had had the choice (now he doesn't even have the pleasure of tasting it!), but finding himself cornered in this situation -right before Liz locked him in it- he decided that this might as well be the way to gain it. But I'm convinced that not for a moment he does it especially in order to clear his past, to undo all his terrible deeds- he doesn't do it out of the promise of redemption. I think for Jack that's the next step...
Dear ol' Norrie... what has the world done to him?! He's a different story! In fact, his reply to Jack is so very true; he doesn't chase the dark side of ambition at all, for he already experienced how bad that turned out. Jack implies that Norrington couldn't resist behaving bad anymore for it does him so much better. But in fact the one bad deed against the law Norrington commited (=giving Jack a one days headstart- Norrie should actually focus his anger on the Gov!) did him nothing but wrong... it led from one terrible thing into the other, untill he felt obliged to resign... and things got even more worse and ta!, he now lives as a pirate. 'If only he had stayed true to the law'... I think Norrie's one wish is to become honored and respected again, his deeds forgiven (so yeah, redemption it is he longs for) and to live on life as if nothing atually happened. Too bad he is blinded for the fact that by taking DJ's heart, bringing it to Beckett and wanting the letters of mark, he just commited his worst crime -against law and against humanity and friends!- of all. But then again, us is once again shown that the law doesn't automatically imply just. That makes me wonder... would it be just if Norrington regains his honor in society? Not by his latest act ofcourse, but by a more fair way? He certainly has a lot to make up for now.
So... what did Beckett sell himself? Something else... I don't fully understand that remark; what did the Gov not want to sell? His position? His loyalty? |
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| JackMallory | Jul 24 2006, 01:25 PM Post #3 |
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Swabbie
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Jack has a very important quote in the movie, something he says to Will about there comes a day when we have to take responsibility for our actions. I thought to myself how ironic it is that Jack said that because Jack of all people in DMC (until the end) is doing everything BUT taking responsibility for his own actions. He made a deal with DJ and is trying to do everything to avoid keeping his end of the bargain (not that anyone can blame him ). Jack in DMC to me was much more ruthless (and thus more piratical, which is all good to me ). In the end, Jack lives up to that responsibility. I don't even think that he came back to the Pearl first and foremost to save his "friends" (because are they really friends? Consider Will's comment about Jack to Beckett at the start of DMC). I think he came back not only because he loved the Pearl and felt death with her was better than life without her (on land), but because he realized he had to accept his responsibility, keep his end of the bargain with DJ. DJ had kept his end of the bargain--raising the Pearl and giving Jack all those years. If he was only concerned with buying time for his friends, he perhaps could have done something other than plunge headlong into the maw of the Kraken with such heroic determination and ferocity. No, he was simply facing what he knew he had to, to battle and succomb to what he had fled from not so heroically all through DMC, to keep his end of the bargain and his honor. As Pawzie said to me, she forgot to touch on Bootstrap Bill in all of this, so I shall. Talk about needing redemption! First Bill runs out on his wife and son (and perhaps other children?), then he takes up piracy, then he takes part in a mutiny against his good friend Jack. Lord knows what else Bootstrap did during his years of piracy. Perhaps that is why he is so resigned to his fate. He is taking responsibility for what he has done wrong. Notice his apology to Jack for the mutiny and his apology to his son for running out on him. But then along comes something to "live" for...his son, in the flesh. Now he looks forward to redemption via his son's efforts. The goodness and selflessness of another has given him hope where no hope previously existed. And I have to talk more about Davy Jones, too. Now there's a man who needs redemption! But is he perhaps beyond redemption? I hope not. The look in his eyes when CJS talks about Will being in love... Such a great job by ILM of capturing Bill's performance (I'd love to see that scene pre-CGI in the DVD extras). In those few seconds the viewer gets a glimpse of humanity, a glimpse we really see nowhere else but is so important and powerful. We see a hint in the scene where he's asleep at his organ and Will wakes him up, but he's soothed back to sleep by the music box, a song that obviously reminds him of his lost love (and I'm wondering how that box started up all on its own...some magical/mystical power perhaps, knowing either that Will needed help or that its master needed soothing). So the writers showed us the lighter side of DJ, if you will, and I hope they did that to set up DJ's redemption in P3. |
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| nulldevice | Jul 24 2006, 06:13 PM Post #4 |
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Smuggler
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I've mentioned this elsewhere, bu tt me, redemption carries with it the connotation of doing something good to achieve a positive change or to compensate for something bad in the past. Norringto is only fooling himself if he considers his course of action in DMC to have any redeening values. His actions are are centerend on his own gains and he suffers from hatred and greed. A true man of honor would have remained in his position and written off Elizabeth. But, what does he no whope to achieve? He certainly can't get his commission back, and in spite of now having the natur eof a pirate -- th one thing Liz was obsessed with -- he's still no closer to him than before. Jack puts it correctly -- it's the dark side of ambition, not redemption. |
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| Aurora Knight | Jul 24 2006, 08:14 PM Post #5 |
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Swabbie
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Just have to say first - great essay, RumsGone! Very perceptive and interesting. Nulldevice: I agree with you, but now we're going back to what d-rose keeps mentioning: the question of what really is right or good. Is Norrington doing what's right by society? By God? By himself? He wants his honor back, and he's doing what he thinks it will take. Of course, it's one of the big themes of pirate movies, and PotC in particular - moral ambiguity. As has been said: unlike in some movies, PotC makes no claims to being about what's right and what's wrong. Like real life, it's far more complicated than that. It's one of the things I like about these movies - the characters' motives, and therefore their actions, feel very genuine. EDIT: Spoiler follows: *Oh, and as a side note, Norrington *does* get his commission back. In fact, he's now an Admiral. (Due of course to Beckett's influence.)* [size=1]Edited by RumsGone[/size] |
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| nulldevice | Jul 24 2006, 10:02 PM Post #6 |
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Smuggler
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Argh... that was a spoilerl. Of well, I guess Beckett does" have a heart" (pun intended). The morality at stake is that of the individual vs. that of society. The hidden message, then as it is now, is how far can you push what you do in the interest of either yourself or society, as a whole, and consider it still justified? When is an uprising the foundation of a good revolution vs. anarchy or deliberate resusaal to obey fixed laws? When is taking advantage of someone to better your own position justified? When is sacrifice of the self really best in the interest of others? There are not really any simple answers to these questions, and the point of the film to me is to poin tout that eveyone has their own hopes and desires and how difficult it is to reconcile them all if evryone wants something else. To me, this is epiomized in the 3-way fight scene with Liz on the side callin gthem all rediculous nad stupid, and ironically, having the same basoic approach to delaing with the situation herself. I don't think you can label any acttion specifically as being "right" that affects different people in different ways, dependoing on the viewpoint. Take Jack, who's willing to make this selfish trade: Davey Jones: I keep the boy. Ninety-nine souls-uh. But I wonder, Sparrow, can you live with this? Can you condemn an innocent man - a friend - to a lifetime of servitude, in your name while you roam free? Jack Sparrow: [thoughtful pause, then cheerfully] Yep! I'm good with it. Should we seal it in blood? I mean... mmm-mmm - ink? It's all self-interest at work here, regardless of the consequences. No wonder Liz was (initially) so upset with Jack when she found out what he' d done. |
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| d-rose | Jul 25 2006, 09:43 AM Post #7 |
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Swabbie
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AAAAARGH! You should have mentioned it was a spoiler of PotC3, I wasn't thinking and if I had... I wouldn't have peeked.:blink: But then again, that fact is basically simple reasoning, isn't it.
Add: "and still consider it justified to yourself". This movie(s) is all about fooling yourself. Trying to justify your plans and actions with reasons, that aren't completely the truth. At least not the main truth. Especially DMC is about people finding out -or willing to admit, or being forced to admit- what their true motives actually are. Take your example of DJ asking Jack about being okay while condemning his friends. Jacks claims -and he probably believes it too at that moment- that he's fine with it, but in the end he isn't. He sacrifices himself because Will is among those he does not want to die. And Norrington, remember in CotBP; the "How can you pass that up, aye? " scene. Norrington answers: "By remembering that I serve others, not only myself". Was he? It must have been really hard for him to let the Pearl go, for it would have such a triumph to bring in that infamous ship. He wanted to, but couldn't risk it. If he failed he could have lost everything, not just a few men he needed to protect, but also his respect and position. What is here the truest motive? He's only human, as we see proven in DMC. And Elizabeth... don't get me started on her. She's the living example of the inner struggle 'what's wrong or right', 'what do I really want (for I want both)' and 'how do I justify my actions'. Like Aurora says, life is like that. Life is complicated, because we're individuals living together with other individuals. Each with their our perception of life. There is no standard for what is Right or Wrong. There are just rules that say what's wrong or right, but even those can be adjusted in order to make them fit to your personal feelings about what's wrong or right. The hardest part of that, however, is to make others understand that. Is that what's to be next in PotCIII? |
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| nulldevice | Jul 25 2006, 07:32 PM Post #8 |
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Smuggler
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Indeed, there are many aspects that deal with making choices and in many cases, regretting them. As you pointed out with Norrington, he no longer abides by his "remembering that I serve others, not only myself." His actions in DMC are purely self-serving but at least, he makes no pretense of where he stands. Jack is also very self-serving, but at least with a bit of a heart. Barbossa already knew he was a bit of a softy and played that against him. I think it will be very interesting to see how Jack and Barbs are supposed to work with each other, given their past history and the suspicoins and all. Liz, as you mentioned, is a loose cannon right now -- she's gyrating all over the place, not knowing what to think or do. WIll is probably the most stable of the lot, though he didn't feel badly about leaving Jack behind (almost twice). There's a revealing part in DMC which brings to light where WIll stands:
Will is not convinced, perhaps until the end of DMC, that Jack is worthy of friendship and I believe WIll's willingness to go on the quest lies more with his wanting to save his father than with helping Jack. |
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| JackMallory | Jul 26 2006, 01:44 AM Post #9 |
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Swabbie
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Just so. I agree. And he's still concerned with Elizabeth's feelings...you could see that in the final scene, right before Tia "introduces" the new captain. Will has true concern in his voice when he says if anything could be done then he stands and starts toward Liz, saying, "Elizabeth..." The other thing that convinces me of Will's focus on his father is how, in that last scene, he keeps burying the knife blade into the table. That knife will be very important in P3, I'm guessing. |
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| Admin | Jul 26 2006, 12:23 PM Post #10 |
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unused account - do not PM
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OK, my thoughts aren't nearly as good and detailed as all yours (for once - you may thank me later), but some small things I wanted to say...
Yes, perhaps... Possibly related to that: I still wonder how Jack left his mark on Beckett. (And I wonder - oh no, that's for the other thread.) The way it's presented, it seems like it's something much more profound than a scar. (I joked to someone that maybe Jack went snip-snip on Beckett, but something tells me that's not it either.)
Hehe. What Beckett has is a need for people in high places that are smart enough to follow his orders. How convenient then that putting those people there is simultaneously a reward for them, putting them in Beckett's debt.
Exactly. I think most people are inclined to see the Scooby Gang - I mean: the Sparrow Gang - as friends just because they're together for most of the movie, and on (roughly) the same side. But that doesn't mean much.
It may have been honour, but it may also be that Jack was tired of running. Just look at the way he'd been living recently; no fun, and he couldn't keep his crew happy either. So, what was he about to do - move inland and hide in some hut far away from everyone, and hope that DJ wouldn't somehow manage to find him on his once-in-a-decade excursion? That would not be worth it. So I think Jack's death, more than anything else, was acceptance of his fate - for once. Throughout most of his piratical career (and possible before as well), he's been wriggling himself out of trouble, always busy to get a bit more profit out of things. And that's fine when it's working for you, and when you have a goal that will make it all worth it (e.g. getting the Pearl back); a time when it'll pay off. But if that doesn't seem to happen... I can imagine one becoming very tired of it all, and giving in to his inevitable doom with reasonable equanimity. |
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| nulldevice | Jul 26 2006, 10:26 PM Post #11 |
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Smuggler
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DutchS, exactly... throughout the films thusfar, we see Jack mostly trying to either run away or finagle his way out of the situations he's gotten into. Finally, at the end of DMC, he has the determination to face his foe and stop running from what he probably feels he cannot escape. An old proverb states, "Better an end with horror than horror without end". I agree fully that this is where Jack's at at that moment. |
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| RumsGone | Jul 27 2006, 01:29 AM Post #12 |
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Captain
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What a perfect quote to sum up Jack's situation, null. I think that's it in a nutshell. I'm LOVING all the responses! Everyone is bringing up so many great nuances of the characters and their motivations. I may have more to add later. I'm not in a really introspective mood right now, but I did want to thank you all for such fantastic, thoughtful replies!
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"Mother's love, Jack! You should know better than to wake a man when he's sleeping. It's bad luck."




Will has true concern in his voice when he says if anything could be done then he stands and starts toward Liz, saying, "Elizabeth..." 
8:33 AM Jul 11