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Shirley Phelps-Roper
Topic Started: Sep 25 2007, 02:10 PM (1,519 Views)
ConfusedMonkey
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Satan Valid
I'd heard a bit about "Christians" protesting at the funerals of soldiers that had died in Iraq, saying that they deserved to die and so on - but I only came across the Westboro Baptist Church today.

Here's an interview on the Jeremy Kyle Show in the UK - Shirley and her two daughters.

Can't embed the video, youtube won't let me. Anyway, although it's amusing to watch, I found it extremely irritating that nobody intelligent enough to actually debate properly with the family was on the show. The main arguments back to the family were things like "no, you're the ones that will go to hell", and "you're brainwashing your children". I'd like to see people with a good knowledge of the bible debate with these fanatics properly, actually refuting points and so on.

Mostly though, I was picturing Shirley and Reesa arguing. That would be the funniest thing EVER.

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ConfusedMonkey
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Lol - fun quotes from Fred Phelps, during Westboro sermons:

Quote:
 
"The hell with your flag. The hell with your fag army, your fag courts, your fag-run government".


Quote:
 
"This is the hypocritical, fag-infested, fag-run United States of America and we're supposed to respect that fag rag flag?"


Quote:
 
"The red on that flag stands for fag rectal blood".
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zippy®
complete shy-te
louis theroux did a good programme on these freaks.

well worth a watch
did i mention...im shy?
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Evil_Henry
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The Jeremy Kyle show plus Westboro Baptist church seems like a perfect match. All the morons you could shake a stick at.

Kyle show is trash

"A judge has branded The Jeremy Kyle Show "a form of human bear-baiting" at a court case in Manchester.
District Judge Alan Berg said the ITV1 daytime programme was "trash" and existed to "titillate bored members of the public with nothing better to do".

The judge made the comments while sentencing one of the show's guests, who head-butted his love rival during filming earlier this year.

In his sentencing, Judge Berg was reported in the Manchester Evening News as saying: "I have had the misfortune, very recently, of watching The Jeremy Kyle Show.

"It seems to me that the purpose of this show is to effect a morbid and depressing display of dysfunctional people whose lives are in turmoil."

He added that it was "human bear-baiting which goes under the guise of entertainment".

"It should not surprise anyone that these people, some of whom have limited intellects, become aggressive with each other.

"This type of incident is exactly what the producers want. These self-righteous individuals should be in the dock with you. They pretend there is some kind of virtue in putting out a show like this," said Judge Berg.

A spokeswoman for ITV said: "We do not recognise the district judge's description of our programme, or his opinion of the viewing public and the people who choose to take part in our programme in an effort to resolve their problems."

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ConfusedMonkey
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Lol - that link is loads better, Zippy.

Louis: "How would you rate today's picket? Marks out of ten?"

Shirley: "They're ALL ten! Always ten!!"

Louis: "I see." :wacko:
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ConfusedMonkey
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Henry - that's actually how I came across the Wesboro thing, by reading an article about how balls the Jeremy Kyle show is. It had a youtube link to the episode I posted above - couldn't help watching it. :)
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ErgonomicLogic
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Even fundamentalist christians don't like these people. They protest at soldiers funerals, not against the war in Iraq, but solely for the publicity they can get. They will even go so far as to call the dead soldier a fag and say that's why he or she died. They came to my town to protest, I went with a friend from the law school as part of a multi-denominational counter protest and we blocked the sidewalks etc so they couldn't even get close to the funeral. As they screamed fag lover and telling us we were going to hell we smiled and served them cake, muffins and punch. It's probably the only time I will say that pacifism was actually worth it, because it only pissed them off more than violence would have.
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Lea
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It's interesting that they don't talk about Christ all that often. They speak about God and not the kind, compassionate God but the vegeful, bitter and very twisted fucked up God.


7.2 to 7.6 and its in the book of Matthew. Judging others:

Do not judge others, so that God will not judge you, for God will judge you in the same way you judge others and he will apply to you the same rules that you apply to others. Why, then, do you look at the speck in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the log in your own eyes? "How dare you say to your brother, 'Please let me take that spec out of your eye' when you have a log in your own eye? You hypocrit! First take the log out of your own eyey, and then you will be able to see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye."


Which really should have been pointed out to those women and their view on God's perfect Hatred and his desire to send all of us to Hell. "Goodo, I'll see you there!"



There's another one but I can't find it!
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lori
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that chick, you know
Lori
Lea: One of my favorite scriptures.

Monkey: fag rag flag sounds like Dr. Seuss on meth.


Almost two years ago, we had a mining cave in here. Mining cave ins and accidents are hard, because most everyone is a miner, so it's hard not to feel sympathetic to the families. My dad and grandfather, my uncles--all coal miners. Anyway, there were 13, I think, involved in the cave in. What made it more difficult, there was some miscommunication when they were found and instead of reporting 12 dead, 1 living, the opposite was in the news, told to the families. Very sad. Yes, there is a point. Those people came here to protest at those funerals. Apparently, God killed those miners because he hates gay people. None of them were gay, they all had wives and families. Not that, if they had been it would've made it less disgusting, but it might've made more sense. But, you know, somebody had to die.
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ConfusedMonkey
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Lea - that was the thing, while I was watching it I knew that someone with a good knowledge of the bible could refute that woman on every point. I'm not that person though, but there are plenty of people out there that can. It'd be nice to see someone take them on properly, without shouting at them and losing control. Difficult to stay calm, but the more that people shouted at Shirley on the Jeremy Kyle show and said stuff like "where's your dignity", the more Shirley and her daughters came off as the winners in that argument.

Lori, that's awful. I don't get their obsession with homosexuality anyway - there are far worse things going on in this world than a bit of bum love. On the topic of sexual deviance in the eyes of their god, they keep mostly quiet about things like abortion, pre-marital sex, divorce, remarriage and so on. Maybe it's because those things have already been done to death, and there are still a good number of homophobic people out there that they hope to stir up and convince to join them.
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lori
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that chick, you know
Lori
I saw an abortion protest the other day. I'd never seen one before. I'm assuming they'd gotten permission to gather, but they were in town--it's not so much a city, but it's the closest we have--lining the street showing these disgusting pics. If my kids had been in the car, I'd have been even more upset, and I was pretty annoyed. I wanted to roll down my window and tell them they were going to hell, but my husband was a smidge embarrassed by the idea. He said it was silly, since that was their argument, but I said it would be 'ironic.'

At any rate, that's what gets me about people who use God as a stick to beat other people with; they're so certain in their rightness, that showing blown up pictures of dead babies to anyone, even children, is fine or screaming about fag rag flags is a-okay. It's so presumptuous to assume that because they're 'Christians' they have a right to teach my children to be ignorant and hateful.
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Lea
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So on the topic of "religious duty" which is something that really shit me about that family.


Teaching about Charity: 6.01 -6.02 Matthew


"Make certain you do not perform your religious dutiesin public so that people will see what you do. If you do these things publicly, you will not have any reward from your Father in heaven."


The other thing that really pissed me off and this was on Zippy's link was that young girl right at the end " we don't do violence, we don't hurt people, we're just bringing them a message".

which is a lie, picketing at funerals hurts people, it is an act of violence to create that kind of pain for another human being during one of the hardest moments of their lives".. to use words like "fag" is an act of violence and it is hateful.


I got upset when that little boy was hit with that cup, irregardless of his parents views and the sign with which he was holding, all that did was cement in his mind what he had been taught. It's unfortunate that both sides of the fence continue to attack each other in equal measure.


There is another teaching of Christ (which I can't find along with the one about jesus in the temple with the sinner - I was so sure they're both in Matthew but now I can't find either) about allowing others to have their view points in harmony with yours. To show understanding and compassion and acceptance when they show none. That is the sign of a person who lives the true teachings of the Lord. (remember THAT bit).





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Nebuloso
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"The Devil himself can quote scripture for his own purposes!"

Now don't get me wrong. I am not calling Lea the Devil. (even if sometimes, I do wonder! :P) I mention that merely to illustrate why it's so hard to argue with Bible-thumpers, even if you try to beat them at their own game.



(ironically enough, a great many people think that quote actually came from the Bible!)
...yeah, about that...I'm thinking probably not.
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Lea
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It has nothing to do with the devil.


And hands down bible thumpers only read what they want to read. I'm quoting THEIR religious scripture. If satan lives anywhere, it isn't in ME nor am I twisting scripture to suit my agenda. If you want to jump that bandwagon with them Mike, go ahead, don't drag me into it because you don't like what I post with.


Judgement, acceptance, tolerance, forgiveness are in the parables and the stories of christ. There's a parable.. and I can't find it in the bible though I know it's there.. I'll have to read it all.. that goes:


Jesus went to the temple. At the very front, with the biggest and proudest voices were those that considered themselves righteous, worthy of God's love.


At the back of the temple jesus found a man, I can't remember but I have a feeling he was a theif. He was on his knees.. his head down, his eyes down and praying. His prayer was not about possessions or desire, about how great he was, nor did he relish in the love of God that he believed to be rightly his.


He was a sinner, and as a sinner he humbled himself before God, thanking him for his kindness, and forgiveness and his Love.

The parable is taught because it's about humility.


Those that believe they are righteous very seldom are.


Those that are humble live the teachings of the Lord.
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ConfusedMonkey
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Lea - I think Neb just meant that if you try and argue scripture back at these people, they'll just say that even the devil himself can quote scripture for his own purposes. Not that you are the devil.

Henry was saying something similar last night - you can back up virtually any argument using quotes from the bible, such as whether the bible is for or against this kind of behaviour. Another reason why debating with these people is near impossible.

This link displays that rather well - go down to "Bible Contradictions". Here are a few...

---
God is omniscient, sees & knows all things
Proverbs 15:3
Psalms 139:7-10
Job 34:21,22

God is NOT omniscient, neither sees nor knows all things
Genesis 3:8-9
Genesis 11:5
Genesis 18:20-21
---

God is not the author of evil
Deuteronomy 32:4
I Corinthians 14:33
James 1:13

God IS the author of evil
Ezekiel 20:25
Lamentations 3:38
Jeremiah 18:11
Isaiah 45:7
Amos 3:6
---
God's anger is slow and ends quickly
Psalms 30:5
Psalms 103:8

God's anger is quick and endures long
Numbers 25:4
Numbers 32:13
I Samuel 15:2-3
Jeremiah 17:4
---
Judging of others is forbidden
Matthew 7:1-2

Judging of others is approved
I Corinthians 6:2-4, 5:12
---
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Lea
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ConfusedMonkey
Sep 26 2007, 10:11 AM
Lea - I think Neb just meant that if you try and argue scripture back at these people, they'll just say that even the devil himself can quote scripture for his own purposes. Not that you are the devil.

uh huh.


You can go back and forth all day.

In the NT (which is after the coming of christ) not only contradicts what the OT has written but also establishes God as a Father rather than a King. In the NT God is seen to be all loving, all forgiving and all compassionate. The true followers of the teachings of the Lord are not righteous pious men, but sinners who struggle with their humanity and all of it's faults.


As the Father of my grandmothers church (we call our Priests - Father) once said "God sees into the heart of all of us. If your heart is one of love, then what do you have to fear?"


I don't agree with taking the Bible literally, but it's always the religious fundamentalists that use it to fight a cause that spews hatred, and injustice and bigotry.

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Nebuloso
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ConfusedMonkey
Sep 26 2007, 04:11 AM
Lea - I think Neb just meant that if you try and argue scripture back at these people, they'll just say that even the devil himself can quote scripture for his own purposes. Not that you are the devil.

Thank you, Monkey. That is exactly what I was trying to say. I thought I was pretty clear on that point when I said:

Neb
 

Now don't get me wrong. I am not calling Lea the Devil. (even if sometimes, I do wonder! :P) I mention that merely to illustrate why it's so hard to argue with Bible-thumpers, even if you try to beat them at their own game.


Then again, you have to actually read something to understand it. :rolleyes:
...yeah, about that...I'm thinking probably not.
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ErgonomicLogic
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Judging of others is forbidden
Matthew 7:1-2


"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."

Here, the Greek word for "judge" is krino, meaning to condemn, avenge, damn, sentence, or levy a punishment. Christ plainly says that if we condemn others, we will be condemned ourselves.

Though it is certainly hazardous to evaluate the problems or sins of others, the context answers the question of whether we are to do so. We are to judge and in every aspect of life, as other scriptures show. Christ continues His thought, in context, by showing that we are to evaluate the deeds of others, but to be very careful with our judgments.

Christ's initial statement about judgment cannot be ripped out of context to stand on its own. We must understand it considering His whole explanation, which includes recognition of others' sins and their disposition, but only after overcoming our own faults. Otherwise Matthew 7:1 directly contradicts John 7:24 where He uses the same Greek words: "Do not judge according to appearance, but judge [krino] with righteous judgment." Here He says we are to judge, but He mitigates it with instruction on how to judge, just as in Matthew 7.

Judging of others is approved
I Corinthians 6:2-4, 5:12


I'm not sure what retard labelled this as a contradiction.

1If any of you has a dispute with another, dare he take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the saints? 2Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? 3Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life! 4Therefore, if you have disputes about such matters, appoint as judges even men of little account in the church![a] 5I say this to shame you. Is it possible that there is nobody among you wise enough to judge a dispute between believers? 6But instead, one brother goes to law against another—and this in front of unbelievers!

All this passage is saying is that God's people ought to decide matters within the church, but they should not sit in judgment of those outside the church. This is why certain people such as Quakers etc can't sit on a jury. They believe that they can't judge non-believers. The passage indicates that believers should only decide matters within the church.

Anyway, it is misinterpretation of the original Greek that leads to most of these contradictions. The misinterpretation of the word "rock" is what formed the basis for the Papacy and Catholicism. Thank the lazy Latin translators.



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Lea
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Nebuloso
Sep 26 2007, 03:08 PM
ConfusedMonkey
Sep 26 2007, 04:11 AM
Lea - I think Neb just meant that if you try and argue scripture back at these people, they'll just say that even the devil himself can quote scripture for his own purposes. Not that you are the devil.

Thank you, Monkey. That is exactly what I was trying to say. I thought I was pretty clear on that point when I said:

Neb
 

Now don't get me wrong. I am not calling Lea the Devil. (even if sometimes, I do wonder! :P) I mention that merely to illustrate why it's so hard to argue with Bible-thumpers, even if you try to beat them at their own game.


Then again, you have to actually read something to understand it. :rolleyes:

Fuck up Mike.
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ConfusedMonkey
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You're all fag-enablers. God hates you. :rules:
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