| Dream World Ubers Master Team; Discussion for making the best uber team ever. | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: May 20 2012, 01:20 AM (717 Views) | |
| Sheetanshu | May 20 2012, 01:20 AM Post #1 |
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I invite all the PokeHeaven Members to advise about the best-of-best DW Ubers team so that we can combine the ideas into one single force of the ubers that will cross across Heavens.... |
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| Sheetanshu | May 23 2012, 12:11 AM Post #11 |
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Wow, some really good discussions in just a few time. Alright, First about weather: I think every weather is team dependent, like sand for bulky defense, rain for both offense and defense and sun for mostly offense. I prefer rain as it checks most of the weather users and Kyogre's water spout is ridiculously powerful with it. Also it makes ferrothorne , the best among stallers, to survive long (considering shed shell for Chandelure). Though, just my opinion, I think we should definitely include Kyogre in it. Second about threats mentioned by manaphy: Kyogre: The best counter to kyogre is to predict its move. Water Spout is extremely dangerous initially so a priority attack or something faster can reduce its damage. Thus, Arceus being its perfect counter. For taking water spout head-on only some pokemons like Chansey, Ferrothorne, Palkia, Latias are perfect. I prefer ferrothorne for obvious reasons. Ho-Oh: Once rocks are up Ho-oh can't do much. Kyogre can take it sacred fire easily and to some extent Brave bird too. I dont think this will have much of a problem in rain. Mewtwo: Really a deadly pokemon after a CM. Priority attacks are the key to kill it but without SD even arceus can't 2ohko it at full health. Kyogre with Modest Scarf Spout can kill it. Also Kyogre can take a psystrike to almost kill it with specs, then xspeed arceus. Arceus: The most dangerous pokemon. Its different forms make it even worse to have strategy to kill it. We should really discuss about its different forms. Third of all about team type: I agree with the fact that bulk-offense is best with pokemons like arceus giving bulk and then sweeping with extremespeed. |
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| puregenius | May 24 2012, 10:35 PM Post #12 |
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well here are the pros and cons of each weather sun -excellent defensive wall/set up sweeper guaranteed (groudon, btw i reckon rp groudon is one of the biggest threats in the game, but that's for another time) -excellent abusers in reshiram, chandelure, blaziken, fire arceus and ho-oh -chlorophyll abusers are worse compared to swift swim users because their STABs are not affected by sun -most abusers are prone to entry hazards, hence rapid spin/magic bounce support is required, which is a very bad thing rain -kyogre is considered one of the biggest threats in the game -considered the most 'splashable' weather, basically meaning anything works (in rain) -can beat ANY weather starter -wide range of abusers, offensive and defensive (manaphy, kingdra, kabutops, tentacruel, ludicolo, waterceus) sand -damages any most pokemon in the tier -+1 spdef boost to all rock types -diversity in weather starters (hippo and ttar) -arguably the most dangerous abusers (garchomp can be very annoying with sand veil, while excadril is fast and cannot be revenged) hail (yup this gets a mention) -blizzard spam is excellent (more so than in other tiers) -good abusers in iceus, kyurem and mamoswine (kyurem has good base 95 speed, mamo has snow cloak, physical STABs in ground and ice is excellent) -the most anti-meta weather because no common pokemon in ubers are ice typen (rayquaza is the only common pokemon who isnt damaged) -good team mates in waterceus and ho-oh weatherless -u dont have to use 1 weather starter +5, all 6 members can be chosen to whatever u want (this is a huge advantage) -cant change weather, must rely on rayquaza to check weather sweepers |
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| -Manaphy-- | May 25 2012, 05:46 AM Post #13 |
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Hail sucks in Ubers. Don't use it. Also when the hell is Rayquaza going to be checking Ho-Oh or Palkia? I do think however we should stick to Rain / Sun because the starters are the best. Sand teams however, can be very anti-metagame because Tyranitar deals with many common things right now like Ho-Oh, Chandelure, and SmashPass. Excadrill and Garchomp are cool too, but Groudon/Kyogre can handle just about all of them, which is Sand's biggest weakness. We'd have to have enough support for that to work, but then again Sun teams have that same issue with hazards (Rain Teams don't really have a problem like this, so that goes in their favor) Not sure about this one. |
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| CHAMPION LANCE | May 25 2012, 05:25 PM Post #14 |
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POKéMON LEAGUE CHAMPION
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Personally, I believe that Sun is the best weather in DW Ubers for a number of reasons, the most important of which being that teams utilizing this weather have by far the best weapons to neutralize Arceus, the most dangerous Pokémon in the entire game, since Groudon, the summoner of the Sun itself is already an excellent counter to Extreme Killer Arceus, while Choice Scarf Chandelure, with its powerful Sun-boosted Overheat, can easily trap and eliminate any Extreme Killer Arceus that has taken some damage previously, and Ho-Oh completely counters most Calm Mind and support Arceus. Additionally, another major advantage Sun teams have over other teams is the fact that very few Pokémon can withstand the extremely brutal assaults of Ho-Oh and Reshiram's Same Type Attack Bonus moves alone, with the most reliable counter to those two Pokémon being Arceus-Rock, a Pokémon that is seen rather rarely. On the other hand, teams utilizing other weathers, especially rain, tend to struggle with breaking through Dialga and Ferrothorn (the latter of which, in contrast, actually serves as nothing more than either Flame Charge fodder or a free kill for Chandelure against Sun teams), two extremely common Pokémon, with rain teams often needing to rely on burning with Scald or Will-o-Wisp or hitting them on the switch multiple times with not very effective attacks like Water Spout in order to wear them down. The easy availability of Pokémon that can absorb Will-o-Wisps (especially Ho-Oh, since it completely walls most Giratina and supporter Arceus, the most common users of this move, and bonus points for the fact that Ho-Oh itself is a physical attacker, the very same kind of Pokémon that Will-o-Wisp is ironically intended to cripple), as well as serving as the weather favoring the game's ultimate revenge-killer are two more advantages that Sun teams have over teams utilizing other weathers, along with the fact that this weather allows Espeon to regain two thirds of its health with Morning Sun as opposed to one third, something that ties into my next point. As for Sun teams' susceptibility to entry hazards, I too used to think that having to "waste" a spot on the team for a Magic Bounce Pokémon was a huge disadvantage for such teams. But upon gaining more experience using other teams, my perspective on that changed, and I actually happen to believe that generally speaking, most teams that use a Magic Bounce Pokémon + five other Pokémon are actually overall more effective than teams with six members and none of which have Magic Bounce, regardless of how weak or resilient the teams' members may be to entry hazards (an exception I believe should be made for hyper offensive teams). This is because I noticed that even Dialga and Ferrothorn, two Pokémon that are known for their resilience to entry hazards due to their Stealth Rock resistance and Toxic Spikes immunity, do not appreciate switching into Stealth Rock alongside multiple layers of Spikes, especially if they also have to take a rain-boosted Surf or Water Spout as they switch in, something that occurs quite often. And since non-Sun teams, especially those utilizing rain have an extremely difficult time breaking through Ferrothorn, even the act of trying to prevent the opponent from setting up multiple layers of entry hazards in the first place is a task much more easily said than done, especially since Ferrothorn is a common user of both Spikes and Stealth Rock. Thus, I'd say that needing to take up one spot for Magic Bounce support can in no way be considered as a disadvantage that Sun teams need to face that teams using other weathers do not, as pretty much all but the most hyper-offensive teams in fact benefit immensely from Magic Bounce support, in this extremely entry hazard-dominant metagame, where multiple layers of hazards can be easily stacked in the absence of a Magic Bounce Pokémon (and Rapid Spinners are very unreliable due to how common Arceus-Ghost, Chandelure and both Formes of Giratina are). Sheetanshu should also be able to attest to this point, as him and I have both noticed that his main team strongly dislikes entry hazards, despite containing two Pokémon (Giratina-O and Ferrothorn) that are very resilient to such. Aside from that, one should also not forget that a Magic Bounce Pokémon provides their team with an automatic immunity to status moves as well, in addition to being able to reflect such back at its inducer. Anyone who has ever lost against one of those Toxic-stalling Substitute Lugia that rely on poison damage as well as Whirlwind in conjunction with the entry hazards set up by its teammates to wear down its foes would probably at some point have wished that their team contained either an Espeon or a Xatu, regardless of how resistant their team's members may be to entry hazards. |
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| puregenius | May 25 2012, 08:49 PM Post #15 |
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i cant pass judgment on hail as i have never used it, but i know a few ppl who have used hail to great success i meant ray can check swift swimmers etc :\ as for the matter of sun, all weathers have their advantages and disadvantage so we may as well start somewhere i second the idea for using sun |
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| -Manaphy-- | May 25 2012, 11:02 PM Post #16 |
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There is absolutely no reason a Rain Team has to struggle with Ferrothorn or hazards in general. ...I have constructed myself a Rain Team that I do believe is quite good. It was constructed on the vein that it preys on common Sun teams and Rain teams alike. I would actually kind-of like to keep this team for myself, so I don't mind a Sun team if we were to construct one. ...But if we do we should find something different about it. I don't mind using Groudon and Ho-Oh and Chandelure etc. but I find that the most successful teams have a surprise that can set you off to a large advantage. Sorry double-posting but: http://pokemon-online.eu/forums/showthread.php?13375-Wifi-Clause-in-Dream-World-OU&p=163816#post163816 Maybe a Sun team isn't as good of an idea as it was before. Why? Well with Wifi Clause Espeon cannot reliably do it's job of reflecting hazards, as before in DW it was quite easy to bring Espeon in on Stealth Rocks. Furthermore Chandelure becomes much more manageable because know you know that he can come in. This messes with the fundamentals of most Sun DW teams. Edited by CHAMPION LANCE, May 26 2012, 10:29 AM.
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| CHAMPION LANCE | May 26 2012, 10:42 AM Post #17 |
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POKéMON LEAGUE CHAMPION
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The forum rules state that double posting is not allowed, so I have merged your two previous posts. You can always edit your own post to add more information in if you feel it necessary while you were the last person to have replied to the thread. Also, rain teams do struggle against Ferrothorn from my experience, as this Pokémon resists Water, Electric and Dragon-type moves, while fearing almost nothing from Ice Beams despite being hit neutrally by it. Meanwhile, Ferrothorn can use moves like Leech Seed and Thunder Wave to cripple those that attempt to wear it down, or even set up Spikes, which can be really dangerous if the rain team doesn't contain a Magic Bounce Pokémon. This is in stark contrast with Sun teams, in which Ho-Oh and Reshiram can easily gain a free Flame Charge or Substitute against Ferrothorn, while Chandelure can easily trap and eliminate it. As for the implementation of the Wifi Clause in Dream World tiers... well, judging by the votes in that thread, it seems like that is very likely to happen unfortunately (to me). If Team Preview does happen to get implemented into DW Ubers, then I think the decision to build a Sun team would indeed need to be rethought. Let us first see what decision the people at Pokémon Online end up making though. |
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| -Manaphy-- | May 26 2012, 11:37 AM Post #18 |
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As well as the fact that Black and White 2 will inevitably shake up the metagame, should we possibly hold off on creation until then? |
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| CHAMPION LANCE | May 26 2012, 11:42 AM Post #19 |
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POKéMON LEAGUE CHAMPION
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Possibly, and you bring up a good point, but the fact that Sheetanshu created this thread at this time may mean that he intended to make the ultimate DW Ubers team for the pre-Pokémon Black and White 2 metagame. In any case, we'll need to wait for Sheetanshu to come to confirm this. |
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| puregenius | May 26 2012, 01:38 PM Post #20 |
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ah this talk about leads has reminded me of something i tested a while back is it just me, or have u noticed that sun teams tend to lead with groudon and rain teams use kyogre later? so based off this i started to lead with scarf chandelure on a team, which heavily benefitted from rain timid overheat ohkos 252hp/4spdef groudon 99.8% of the time chandelure can also be used later to trap and eliminate ferrothorn, which rain teams have trouble with that's a disadvantage to sun teams, but i dont think ive seen anyone use it except me lol anyway the point that is lead selection will be crucial |
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