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| Azula Quest; A princess is you? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Feb 7 2013, 10:23 PM (38,735 Views) | |
| Chibi-Reaper | Feb 7 2013, 10:23 PM Post #1 |
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Likely to what by a wha?
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Posted Image I suppose that this would be the best place to pick this up from. Definitely going to have to re-create or gather together all of the previous posts, of course. Story Alone, right from post numero uno. Azula. 15 years old. Fourth month, ninth day, of year 100 ASC Master Firebender [23/6] -"Butterfly Wings" Fire-flight [3/???] -"Rocket Boost" Advanced flame propulsion [1/???] -"Dragon's Breath" burning exhalation [3/???] -"Advanced Fire Stream" focused fire spout [2/???] --"Hunting Dragon" Flame Spout Seeking Missile [1/???] -"Flame Wall" basically that. [1/???] -"Pinwheel Shot" distance projectile [1/???] -"Butterfly Swarm" razor-fire butterflies [1/???] -"Lava Bending" Fortress Killer [1/X] -"Inner Fire Reinforcement" Self-buff [2/???] -"Edge Enhance" Sword-buff Flames [1/???] -"Voice of Command?" ...not what it says on the tin? [1/1?] Air Bender [4/?] -"Cold Sky Fire" Lighting manipulation. [4/???] --"???" Force Lightning Taser? [1/???] --"???" Electro-Net. [1/???] Advanced Etiquette [2/2?] Spiritualism [3/3?] Leadership [6/???] Politics [6/???] "Agressive Self Defense" [3/???] -Unpleasant Surprises [2/?] Strategy [4/???] Logistics [2/???] Second Child Arts [1/???] Somewhat Cultured [4/???] Basic Trading Knowledge [2/???] Creepy child. Praise the Sun. Fire Good. ... Jealous. So jealous. Once burned, twice....? Tea-sipper. Ruby Butterfly. Divine Right of Kings? Cap'n Jin. Toph Customer, or some other pun. Old Man of the Mountain: Not Your Buddy. Lotus Initiate. Raijin Approves. Fuujin... not so much. Edited by Chibi-Reaper, Feb 9 2013, 06:48 PM.
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| Yog | Feb 8 2013, 09:22 AM Post #351 |
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So... You are basically agreeing to its initial outrageous demands without any negotiation just like that? Why?
Why would we let it have a body? We don't want it to have a body. We shouldn't want it to have a body. |
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| Alratan | Feb 8 2013, 09:56 AM Post #352 |
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If this is aimed at me, then the second half of my plan is designed to address exactly this eventuality, explicitly including a way to get our descendants to sign the deal and a counter-measure to Navi trying to screw us or them over in the process. I'm very much opposed the the child plan now, particularly if people intend to wriggle out of the deal by not having children. Chibi has given us an example of what happens when one makes a deal involving a third party that can't be lived up to. I don't want to risk their being implicit bad faith clauses in contracts with spirits that trigger if we try to do this. Does anyone see any improvements that can be made to my proposal? I'm happy to edit in refinements. Edited by Alratan, Feb 8 2013, 10:05 AM.
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| Hymn of Ragnarok | Feb 8 2013, 10:16 AM Post #353 |
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Well, I'm not really fond of any of the ideas for the fairy getting that favor and what to give her. Especially when we still have a trial. So my standing vote will be: [X] Take the one-time power up, do not eat. |
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| Aranfan | Feb 8 2013, 10:22 AM Post #354 |
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No. I'm refusing it outright. Perhaps I worded it poorly. [x] You are not getting to be in line for the throne. Denied. Also, NSMS, I saw no indication that the rain will no-sell the rocket flight thing. The wings are out, but the rocket should work, and even if it will be much less efficient we will be having energy to burn, and are pressed for time. |
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| Yog | Feb 8 2013, 10:27 AM Post #355 |
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The problem is - we can't handle the whole of her power with one-time power up.
So, we have to bargain here. |
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| Hymn of Ragnarok | Feb 8 2013, 10:30 AM Post #356 |
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It pushes us to our limit, and we have to burn it off fast. Yes, we can handle it, we just have to move our ass. |
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| Yog | Feb 8 2013, 10:35 AM Post #357 |
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Nope:
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| Alratan | Feb 8 2013, 10:42 AM Post #358 |
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I think leaving Zuko to die is a very bad idea. Go back and read the description of what he's facing. A giant scorpion twice the size of a rhinoceros, with a bonus poisoned stinger and giant claws. There's no way an unaugmented human is going to get away intact against that, unless a miracle happens. We are that miracle. We can negotiate a mutually beneficially deal here, I think, beyond helping Zuko. What downside does the butterfly sharing our immediate descendants' senses have, anyway? There's certainly no downside to being prepared to negotiate. More importantly, abandoning Zuko when he rushed to near certain death to try to save us - he ran ahead of us into the spirit world to try to sever the arm pulling is in - would be a totally unacceptable thing to do. It's just wrong. Edited by Alratan, Feb 8 2013, 10:57 AM.
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| GoC | Feb 8 2013, 10:49 AM Post #359 |
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I note that people are forgetting that Azula holds all the cards here and is in a position of power over Navi. We're saving her arse. We could basically say "No. If you're worried about power, I'll allow a same-term Azulon contract with my descendants but in exchange for your knowledge" and she doesn't have a whole lot of choice. |
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| ryuan | Feb 8 2013, 10:50 AM Post #360 |
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I agree with not letting Zuko die. |
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| Yog | Feb 8 2013, 10:53 AM Post #361 |
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Which is what I am basically voting for, really. We'll see how it reacts and whether it will call our bluff / goes for mutual suicide route (we need it to get to the top, or we'll die). |
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| Alratan | Feb 8 2013, 11:14 AM Post #362 |
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I'm not saying that he will die against the giant scorpion. Just that it's very likely. It's not even a question of trust. Even if Azula trusted that he had a good chance, she should still try to help him, just because it's the right thing to do. We should ask whether Navi can imprint knowledge into the power he sends, so he will understand its limits, and perhaps also pass a message about Azula believing in him, given what Raijin said about despair. I wonder whether Zuko would think if trying eating the spirits he kills. The fact that the spirits are eating each now other should be suggestiv that they're recycling the ones he kills' power, which means killing them doesn't accomplish as much as it could. It's risky, but eating the scorpion after killing it may give him the power he needs to survive, and more importantly, deny his enemies the same power up. |
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| NSMS | Feb 8 2013, 11:21 AM Post #363 |
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:Raise: ...how big do you think Zuko's stomach is? |
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| Redon | Feb 8 2013, 11:23 AM Post #364 |
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the baka nerbie
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And yet, it's a spirit, it could be showing what you want to see and Zuko could be having no issue with it whatsoever. Now back to backing up Witch Quest.
Edited by Redon, Feb 8 2013, 11:24 AM.
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| HioH | Feb 8 2013, 11:31 AM Post #365 |
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Lucky for us Azula will not do Stupid things like LET A SPIRIT BECOME A DRAGON, lets negotiate and see what terms Navi can accept. A chance to contract/ or the same contract we have; with our descendants is probably enough, it will at worst give it a second chance for a body when it isnt sucide to refuse, for both of us. |
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| Deathwings | Feb 8 2013, 11:45 AM Post #366 |
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Holy...not even a day and already 8 pages with 3 updates. :blink: Okay, I'm firmly against just eating Evil Navi, that whole mutation thing give me a really bad feeling. The problem now is to reach an actual agreement that doesn't screw us over...how about a clause that once she is born, we will EDUCATE her on what is and isn't permitted in human society and she'll have to obey those rules ? |
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| target | Feb 8 2013, 11:49 AM Post #367 |
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[x] we should agree to let it be born after we have had a first child born [x] it will be required to adhere to a list of limits on its actions while it exists in flesh to prevent it from going on rampages senceless killings or other less savory acts (on the plus side we might end up with evil navi princess quest later ) Edited by target, Feb 8 2013, 11:51 AM.
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| Hymn of Ragnarok | Feb 8 2013, 11:54 AM Post #368 |
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It occurs to me, if Navi can send the power WHENever she desires....does that mean she already knows how Zuko's fight will end? Is it possible that Zuko has already won, but she's just showing us his fight from BEFORE he won? In any case, I think any solution that ends with Navi getting her own body is a bad, bad idea. If we truly can't take all of Navi's power, then we take what we can and we tell her, "Either it is lost pointlessly, or it is lost through Zuko's survival." Okay, if we agree to give Navi's power to Zuko, here's what I say our counter-offer will be. "You will not take any body born from my womb. If it is a boon you desire, I would entertain the thought of arranging another person to have a binding similar to what we share. You will not speak to or tempt them. You will not grant further bargains. But you will have another mortal lifetime with which to gain more power." She gets another free ride of power, the person doesn't have to listen to Navi, but Navi gets to benefit from them all the same. I think Navi would settle for this, although she'll probably try and fight to have a few limitations removed. In the end, she will still gain more power than she lost. |
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| target | Feb 8 2013, 12:11 PM Post #369 |
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what i dont like was how they prevented anyone from linking to this site, kinda heavy handed and it makes me want to cancel my sb subscription/automatic donation. |
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| Felius | Feb 8 2013, 12:17 PM Post #370 |
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Yeah, we are not giving her a free body. Last time she did got a body of her own the Avatar had to use trickery to kill her. Hmmm, maybe we can go with an idea of "You will be bound to obey my orders, and after my death you must give up the body we gave you. You'll not get a body of your son until we have at least two children. You will not intentionally misinterpret my orders. You will not deliberately try to cause harm to the fire nation. You will not tell or intentionally try to let others know that you are actually a spirit." How about this, in general terms? |
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| target | Feb 8 2013, 12:17 PM Post #371 |
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good work hymn |
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| Alratan | Feb 8 2013, 12:19 PM Post #372 |
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The problem with Navi having a body applies whether Azula bears it or not. We shouldn't even address her proposal. Start with the deal we want to make. Don't let the butterfly define the terms on the negotiation. It's probably best, negotiating wise, to start with the volcano offer. Just because it resets the entire discussion, showing we've not been conditioned by her proposal. |
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| Hymn of Ragnarok | Feb 8 2013, 12:25 PM Post #373 |
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My idea: [X] "You will take no body born from my womb. If it is a boon you desire, I would entertain the thought of arranging another person to have a binding similar to what we share. You will not speak to or tempt them. You will not grant further bargains. But you will have another mortal lifetime with which to gain more power." [X] "No, this is not the promise of another body. This is the promise to look for a suitable candidate. You will have only a chance to gain another binding and continue to regain power. But then, that is what you offer to give Zuko, is it not? A better chance. When you give your power to me, a portion will be denied to you. By giving the portion to Zuko, you may have a chance to further recoup your loses instead of losing it without recompense." Edited by Hymn of Ragnarok, Feb 8 2013, 12:38 PM.
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| ryuan | Feb 8 2013, 12:44 PM Post #374 |
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What is the vote tally for the current action? |
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| iamnuff | Feb 8 2013, 12:47 PM Post #375 |
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snipped the amount of people where without an avatar is pretty telling about how many people just signed up here purely for Azula Quest. if the whole quest was backed up and pm'ed to chibi, is there any chance of getting it posted here? just so we can have a table of contents? anyway, back to the quest. [x] offer her shrines, ect, but if it comes down to it, have her "inject" power for us, then give the rest to zuko, no "digestion" no mutations, just straight run to the top of the mountain. Edited by iamnuff, Feb 8 2013, 12:53 PM.
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| Felius | Feb 8 2013, 12:49 PM Post #376 |
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If we restrict her to basically not doing anything bad, it wouldn't be so bad for her to have a body. Speaking of which, we need to add: "You will not use your body to make any bargain, deals or contracts." |
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| Yog | Feb 8 2013, 12:51 PM Post #377 |
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We don't want to lose initiative. Both of us need this deal. Both of us should be desperate. We don't want it to get any sort of body. |
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| NSMS | Feb 8 2013, 12:54 PM Post #378 |
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I like this idea. It does need a bit of work (how many candidates? What does suitable mean in this context? Time limits?), but is a good addition to the options we have. ... Don't give Navi a body! Edited by NSMS, Feb 8 2013, 12:55 PM.
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| WizardOne | Feb 8 2013, 12:58 PM Post #379 |
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I have lots of spare time
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On one hand, I recognise that its probably a terrible idea to give her a body, because C-Reaper WILL find the flaw in our contract that prevents her from harming us. He's evil like that. But on the other hand, really, really want to see some ruby butterfly embodied shenanigans. Nothing quite as funny as something with a completely non-human viewpoint trying to ape human behavior. |
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| Hymn of Ragnarok | Feb 8 2013, 01:03 PM Post #380 |
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Oh it'll be funny, at least at times. Right up until Reality Ensues and we end up having to manage the fallout. |
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| ryuan | Feb 8 2013, 01:07 PM Post #381 |
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Specially because it will be our child? |
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| Alratan | Feb 8 2013, 01:12 PM Post #382 |
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I still have no clue why people are voting to make an initial negotiating offer that's anywhere near what Navi wants. That's simply crap tactics. We can' negotiate based on the principles she established. Offer shrines, offer the volcano, whatever. Change the basis for the discussion. Then, either Yog or my proposal can be used. Never, ever, allow the person on the other side of the deal to control the terms of the negotiation. It's not hard. If they propose something unacceptable, simply ignore it as if it never happened, and make your proposal. That's what we need to do. |
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| NSMS | Feb 8 2013, 01:15 PM Post #383 |
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This. ^ Navi doesn't have some big advantage she can hold over our head that will let her negotiate from a position of power, and whilst her help and survival will be extremely useful we do not, strictly speaking, actually need it. Edited by NSMS, Feb 8 2013, 01:17 PM.
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| Yog | Feb 8 2013, 01:20 PM Post #384 |
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Indeed. If we reject its offer, we may die and Zuko is likely to die. But it will die for sure. If anything, it is negotiating from the position of weakness. |
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| Hymn of Ragnarok | Feb 8 2013, 01:23 PM Post #385 |
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Honestly, I think is just trying to get SOME kind of compensation for the power she is going to loose. So she started high and hoped to haggle us down to something she'd like, but we would normally not offer. And she'll probably taunt us with Zuko's fading strength. If he takes a turn for the worse, her bargaining positions strengthens. If he's winning....she'll neglect to inform us. I'd say the passage of time in negotiations only favor her. We need to take a hard line and offer some relatively minor compensation for her, but no truly big thing. Another binding is fairly big on its own. So I saw offer the CHANCE of acting to form another contract for her. Chance for chance, relatively fair deal. |
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| Larekko12 | Feb 8 2013, 01:25 PM Post #386 |
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So Hi yeah. Um why don't we give a body... then I don't know lay a crap load of resticitons on it that basically sum up to that she has to act like our daughter and act in good faith in alignment with our decisions? And try to actively learn to fit into society through observation with no crazy experiments? And basically act as if she had one of our torcs and was unallowed to bring shit down on us? And make her the second born. I mean Unless Aang for some reason got called over here cause Fuujin has a perpetual mourning going on and can some how help Zuko's pretty fucked. Also seeing as this place is kinda atemporal and a special. Why can't we just say reach out and grab him to bring him to us. Or step to the mountain. Not walk. Just Step. Or do something like embody the lightning then arc to the top of the mountain? |
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| Hymn of Ragnarok | Feb 8 2013, 01:27 PM Post #387 |
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Still our child with all the privileges that entails. Moreover, should our firstborn have a tragic accident, guess who's in next line to inherit? Also, horrendous PR for giving a body to a spirit, born from us. Our friends will not be pleased. |
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| Larekko12 | Feb 8 2013, 01:28 PM Post #388 |
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Well of course she's trying to get some compensation. Chibi described it as hacking off body parts then having to painfully grow them back. We'd demand nothing less and few but the most painfully altruistic would give it probono. I mean she can pretty much garuntee the both of your survival at cost of severe debilitating agony and no perm loss of power. For Zuko? Agony plus perm loss of power. |
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| Guile | Feb 8 2013, 01:30 PM Post #389 |
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Haven't the time to read the last 5 pages right now, but how about we bargain her down to THIRD child? After we have our King and our Assassin, then she can have a go. And by then we're presumably such a powerful bender, with so many friends and allies and minions, we can keep her in line. Plus, who knows, growing up with human emotions might blunt the faerie's inhumanity. It's more a case of 'doesn't understand humanity' than actively malicious, after all. |
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| Larekko12 | Feb 8 2013, 01:35 PM Post #390 |
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Make her third born then. And well I got Kidnapped by a God onto his mountain that rained so hard I might as well have been swimming and that wa crawling with spirits trying to eat me who's only reason for me having a chance at survival was having her. I also negotiated her into being a loyal mama's girl being forced to proactively learn to be human and basically act like what would Iroh do. And I did all this so that Zuko and I would survive. It's a soulless doll she's making too so it's not like I'm hurting my unborn. We're also keeping mental talk for me to aggressively socialize and watch dog her. I guess I could have ate her and lets Zuko get maimed and crippled at best, eaten at average, and possessed like a flesh puppet at worst. While I get even more psychologically distorted.. |
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| Yog | Feb 8 2013, 01:38 PM Post #391 |
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We aren't letting it get any body at all. We certainly don't start negotiating from "yeah, you can get a body" position. Current counter-offer in the lead is, if I'm not mistaken [X]"Denied. However. When I have a child, and this child is fully mature, I'll allow you to negotiate with it about one thing only. Should it agree, then, after my eventual death, you'll be able to enter the same, and exactly the same, contract with it as you are with me now, minus the addition we are making now". //I.e. Offer to give our children the chance to form a contract similar to the one Azula made for Azulon. They don't have to accept, and the "Offer contract to future child" doesn't get passed on. [X] any failure to have children by future generations shall not be considered to violate the contract. [X] If any of my descendants refuse the deal they do not have to pass it down to their descendants; and you can't take anything from them in retribution, no body jacking or murder or injury of themselves or those they care for if they don't take the deal, though I promise not to deliberately poison them to it. you have to convince them yourself. [X] If any descendant or I die before our child is mature enough to be offered the deal (what's age of majority in the fire nation, that goes here) our contract is considered fulfilled and you can't posses our corpse to offer it to them our anything. they are considered to have refused as above. [X] Only applies to kids I have with Zuko. He dies you lose and can't jack my body or anything. And we will be ready to waive the ""Offer contract to future child" doesn't get passed on." part. Maybe. We shouldn't start with "give her the body" position at all. We shouldn't agree to it at all. Edited by Yog, Feb 8 2013, 01:39 PM.
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| Alratan | Feb 8 2013, 01:39 PM Post #392 |
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Stop with the bargaining down crap. Offer a new deal. Change the context. Navi does not have the power to define the boundaries here. We need to take control. Navi can bargain up. Edited by Alratan, Feb 8 2013, 01:40 PM.
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| Hymn of Ragnarok | Feb 8 2013, 01:39 PM Post #393 |
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Don't offer her ANY child of ours. Third child? That just means one more buffer between her and the throne. And it getting out that our child is a spirit is a PR nightmare. This is schmuck bait people she is not seriously expecting us to give her a child born from us. It's MASSIVE. With huge repercussions. Do not get sucked in by her high starting point and give her more than she's willing to settle for. That's what you DO when you try to haggle. Start intolerably high so it seems more reasonable to settle for a lower price, hopefully still higher than you'd settle for. |
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| Yog | Feb 8 2013, 01:42 PM Post #394 |
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Anyway, I'm going to sleep. My final vote is: [x]Change the deal, offer something minor - a shrine, a small volcano to call its own, in an uninhabited part of the world, etc. If it disagrees, then go for [X]"Denied. However. When I have a child, and this child is fully mature, I'll allow you to negotiate with it about one thing only. Should it agree, then, after my eventual death, you'll be able to enter the same, and exactly the same, contract with it as you are with me now, minus the addition we are making now". //I.e. Offer to give our children the chance to form a contract similar to the one Azula made for Azulon. They don't have to accept, and the "Offer contract to future child" doesn't get passed on. [X] any failure to have children by future generations shall not be considered to violate the contract. [X] If any of my descendants refuse the deal they do not have to pass it down to their descendants; and you can't take anything from them in retribution, no body jacking or murder or injury of themselves or those they care for if they don't take the deal, though I promise not to deliberately poison them to it. you have to convince them yourself. [X] If any descendant or I die before our child is mature enough to be offered the deal (what's age of majority in the fire nation, that goes here) our contract is considered fulfilled and you can't posses our corpse to offer it to them our anything. they are considered to have refused as above. [X] Only applies to kids I have with Zuko. He dies you lose and can't jack my body or anything. In the further negotiation I am willing to waive the ""Offer contract to future child" doesn't get passed on." part. Maybe. I flatly [x]Refuse to provide it any body at all. Good night everyone, try not to get us killed / horribly mutated. |
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| Earth-Destroyer | Feb 8 2013, 01:43 PM Post #395 |
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I would start with something small. Like building her a shrine in her old home. And say having a ton of wood burned to her.
Edited by Earth-Destroyer, Feb 8 2013, 01:44 PM.
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| Felius | Feb 8 2013, 01:45 PM Post #396 |
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If we do end offering her a body we should include in the deal that she can't inherit the throne. Make so that once we die, she has to abandon the body. Include that she has to act in good faith. Add that she can't make us disabled but alive and keep us around. Obey our orders, without deliberately misinterpreting then. As a whole, yeah, if she gets a body she also gets so many restrictions she could barely do anything. |
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| target | Feb 8 2013, 01:51 PM Post #397 |
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[x] we should agree to let it be born after we have had our first and second born [x] it will be required to adhere to a list of limits on its actions while it exists in flesh to prevent it from going on rampages senceless killings or other less savory acts,this would include loyalty to the royal family and require that it learn how to act human and not reveal what it is to anyone [x] it is forbiden from inheriting the crown, doing so breaks the deal Edited by target, Feb 8 2013, 01:52 PM.
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| NSMS | Feb 8 2013, 01:52 PM Post #398 |
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Let's just not give her a body. Full stop. End of story. Like Yog/Hymn/Alratan have been saying, we should make an extremely low counteroffer to change the context of the negotiation. The chance to negotiate to be bound to one of our children if they agree, a shrine, burning lots of wood... well, there are lots of suggestions. Navi getting a body, even if she is heavily bound by restrictions, would lead to very bad things- no how careful we are, we WILL leave loopholes in the deal that she can exploit, and there's the whole 'spirit in mortal body = bad things' to worry about. Edited by NSMS, Feb 8 2013, 01:52 PM.
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| iamnuff | Feb 8 2013, 01:56 PM Post #399 |
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better than some of the ideas here, but i still don't like the idea that we might actually end up giving birth to her. not to mention, i find any mention of Azula and Zuko having any kids to be a little bit creepy. not "lol ban this" levels of creepy, i understand this is a story about "fantasy land" and it has "fantasy land" social taboos (or lack thereof) and "fantasyland" genetics too. but i would be more comfortable if, say, 5 or so years down the line, (after the threat of civil war was long past) zuko decides he's in love with Mai, ala Canon, and Azula gets her head together enough that she doesn't lose her shit and murder them both, when he suggests the engagement was broken off. i mean, Azula's only criteria for a "husband" at the moment is "Male, Strong-Firebender, Not Evil(negotiable)" those are pretty low standards. give her a couple of years to get her head together and understand this thing called "human emotions" and she might actually find someone she likes. do you see where i am coming from? i guess i just dont want to write ourselves into being spirit-trapped into a loveless politicol marriage with our brother. actually, i dont really think it would bother Azula, I mean, she pretty much only just managed to wrap her head around "friendship" so "Love" is a little far off, at the moment. but Zuko is altogether more human than she is, so it would be bad for him. |
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| Hymn of Ragnarok | Feb 8 2013, 01:56 PM Post #400 |
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Newbie
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You people are essentially betting that we can outsmart the equivalent of a Fae. Yeah, no. No body, period. We offer something else and get off this train of thought, we are being suckered here. |
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6:47 PM Jul 10