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| Season 20 , week 5 - Llamatron ST 1meg; Chosen by a j green | |
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| Topic Started: Sep 19 2010, 10:30 AM (1,335 Views) | |
| necronom | Sep 22 2010, 09:24 AM Post #51 |
Para(lytic)Droid
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I assumed it just went on forever, throwing more and more at you until it became impossible. How many levels does it have? |
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| Invisible | Sep 22 2010, 10:01 AM Post #52 |
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Hang on a moment. So there is blatant cheating going on in this week?  With quit outs and restarts, not starting all over and dual sticks being used (which afaik was two player only) giving an unfair advantage to those with that set up as they can change direction fire, without the llama changing direction making the game much much easier.  Iam calling Shenaningans This game to be struck from the league as unsuitable As playing with two sticks, continues that dont reset the score and... using save states to continue completely undermines the whole principle of the league. Sorry to be a prude, but Iam playing at a severe disadvantage here. Playing without being able to change shot direction without the llama moving as opposed to firing anyway without any penalty for movement is a game changer Edited by Invisible, Sep 22 2010, 10:05 AM.
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| necronom | Sep 22 2010, 10:40 AM Post #53 |
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Para(lytic)Droid
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I can understand your annoyance, but here's my take on it: We played this before, and no-one complained. In-fact I think I used a single joystick, where (going by other scores) other people used twin sticks. Like I've said, I don't see the difference between some people using a console controllers, and other people not having them. It's just a different console, and the PS1/2/3 are as popular as you can get, so it's not some obscure controller. Should mouse games be banned, as some people might want to play a game on a non-PC/Mac? Save states don't come into it. I would never use them apart from saving my high scores. When I have to quit the game because of a crash message, I usually lose one or two lives. I immediately re-load the game, and it continues from where it left off (an automatic save state I suppose) 10 second before. That is a big disadvantage having to do that. It breaks my concentration and I lose lives. I'm not aware of anyone using continues who has submitted a score. Maybe everyone should post the score on the "Continue?" screen. Let's see what other people think. |
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| Invisible | Sep 22 2010, 11:54 AM Post #54 |
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Here is the last time it was played from Season 9. No mention of twin sticks anywhere http://s11.zetaboards.com/RetroLeague/topic/474712/1/ Twin sticking gives a definite advantage over single stick or key players. Its got faff all to do with using popular pads. Using a dual stick set up on this game makes it alot easier. Instead of having to move the llama to change your shot direction, you can just use the other stick. thus you can more easily deal with other enemies and dont get so cornered quickly. In effect you are lowering the difficulty level/ Also you would have to start a 1 player team game to do the twin sticks and this also is not in the spirit of the league as you are playing a different game to the one chosen afaik To show how much different versions of the game effect score I just did 1 player with droid and got nearly 300k pretty easily. You could do 1 player team with droid making the game a pile of wee and defeating the whole object of the league. The only place it shows up that you have done anything other than a bog standard one player is inputting your initials. This is a bad choice for the league and it is clear that the game is being abused. EDIT: Its not that I think its a bad game, infact other than the rubbish collision detection I love it. It just isnt for the league Edited by Invisible, Sep 22 2010, 11:58 AM.
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| necronom | Sep 22 2010, 12:19 PM Post #55 |
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Para(lytic)Droid
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If you look at the scores from last time, the top two players were over 500k, everyone else was under 250k. I assume that those two were playing dual stick setups. I still don't get the problem with using dual sticks, as that is how these type of games are meant to be played, and everyone can play like that if they want to. The main thing for me is that it has been played before, and nothing has ever been said about not using dual sticks. This type of game is supposed to be played that way, so I would think people would expect to play like that unless it's been specifically stated that we can't. |
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| Invisible | Sep 22 2010, 12:45 PM Post #56 |
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But it (this game) isnt supposed to be played that way though from default, that's my point. If you turn up and start a one player game as is you dont have the ability to play twin sticks. you have to play the 1 player team version. Afaik In a league where rom sets have to be standardised to make sure everyone is on an even keel, playing what is a completely different version of the same game as you can now change your direction of fire at any point without moving your llama is taking the piss some what. So people scored highly and it wasnt mentioned before. Does that make it any less right now? Everyone cant play it like that (with twin sticks) though. For example I dont have a twin stick.. PC compatable game pad So its completely impossible to play the game like that. People on keys are well and truly screwed Regarding your Rodland thing I played that on keys and still did well iirc finished 2nd or 3rd? but that was a one joystick game. This is one joystick game, provisionally. So how is playing with two anything but going against the spirit of the league and/or cheating. Re Ikari Warriors, Capn iirc in the interest of fairness. Crazy Planets(?) was ditched after similar control issues, though was playable just about. Was there ever a 4/8 way hack done? or nominate a different version ala c64? |
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| captainfantastic | Sep 22 2010, 12:47 PM Post #57 |
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Unable to let this go sadly. Having read the link posted by invisible and various arguments, I feel obliged to withdraw my score and forfeit a nomination. Silly and petty, one might easily say, but when the assumption that everyone has a Sony pad is trotted out in defense, I can't help but think back to the times I have had games refused for assuming that everyone has a 6 button game pad. If the same standards are not universal, then, well.. |
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| clarance | Sep 22 2010, 01:59 PM Post #58 |
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So are people playing with the droid-assist on then? I thought it was default settings? Control issues - it is mentioned in the read-me, or maybe in the scroll text at the start of the game, I forget which, that Jeff gave the option of playing the game with two joysticks plugged into the ST to mimic the style of robotron, so it was coded into the control mechanics to be able to play that way - but that does lead ton a very different, and easier style of game. For the record, my scores were achieved using the one stick method (default control?). Tried using the two stick control and consistently got higher scores - game becomes much easier without doubt. Some clarification needed maybe? Please don't drop the game though, cuz I luv it  |
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| necronom | Sep 22 2010, 05:50 PM Post #59 |
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Para(lytic)Droid
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We need some control rules for the league, then. Are we saying that to play in the league you are expected to have a controller with at least 3 buttons, and also, no games that require analogue stick controls, 4 buttons or more, or two joysticks are allowed? That would be a shame. I've played many games here in the early days where I didn't have the controls to play properly, but I did my best with what I had, bought what I needed, and did better on the next game. I CAN see people's point here, as it does mean you can get double the score with dual sticks. The only reason I did it was because it was obvious to me that two people did it last time, and it was allowed, and has never been mentioned in a bad way, or banned. If the rule is we have to play with one stick, then okay. No hard feelings to anyone. It's just a shame, as it's a much better game playing it the way it should be played. We need some admin input now, I think. I'll go along with whatever is decided. |
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| supermario | Sep 22 2010, 06:38 PM Post #60 |
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132,142 (single stick!)
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| captainfantastic | Sep 22 2010, 06:44 PM Post #61 |
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I am happy that most people are enjoying this game and my point of principal was probably a bit queeny, but I stand by it based on my inability to compete, with no bad feeling. |
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| Geenius | Sep 22 2010, 07:49 PM Post #62 |
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I'll be away until late Saturday, so if dual sticks are allowed take my 2nd score, if not take my first. I'll see if things settle while I'm away, but I didn't think this place was like yakyak in this way. I guess I was wrong. |
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| captainfantastic | Sep 22 2010, 08:06 PM Post #63 |
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Yes. Words and points of view and stuff are really gay. |
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| zaphod79 | Sep 22 2010, 08:41 PM Post #64 |
Like 69, but bigger
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Okay a few things 1) The game has been chosen before and did not cause any problems then - I see no reason why it should cause problems now - I have no idea if players used twin sticks for previous games (i did not). 2) No continues - the fact that the score doesn't reset means that you should be trusted to only use one credit - the whole league to a certain extent runs on trust - its very easy to fake a screenshot - if some scores look out of place we will ask for evidence of a similar score (and virtually every emulator allows a record mode - this has been requested in the past) 3) You can use any controller you like , a lot of people use keys , some use arcade cabinets / custom controllers , the only thing not allowed specifically is autofire - the fact that this game allows two control methods doesn't specifically make a difference - we've had twin stick shooters before and other horrible controlled games that's just the way things work - we try and discourage games that are not easily controlled by a single joystick / mouse / keys but they are not explicitly banned. 4) Save states are *not* allowed to be used as a 'I'll stop playing now and continue later' , you can however pause the game , and for some games with very long intro's we've suggested a save state on the title screen - Necronom's "crashes" are not a way for him to rewind time and i'd like to know a bit more about them before we decide one way or the other. 5) Starting the game in a different mode although not specifically against the instructions I think is against the 'spirit' of the League , and because of this I think everyone should be playing with the default settings , and starting by 'pressing fire' on player 1's joystick - if you have submitted a score by starting with player 2's stick can i ask you please to remove it and re-submit with a fresh game. This reminds me very much of Bobble bubble , in the arcades we *always* played with the special codes so you had permanent yellow sweeties and shoes but when we played in the league this was not in the spirit so was not allowed. 6) At this point in the week I don't think we should re-draw , and I'll wait to talk to Merman but right now : Play by starting with player 1's fire button , you can use any control method you like - The game has not been 'pulled' yet but thats still a possibility. 7) Talk and debate is one thing , but If there are questions over rules and interpretations please PM me or Merman and we'll make a decision - personally I dont have the time to spend on here that I once did but I still enjoy what we do here and I dont want to get to the stage where this becomes all about rules and regulations - or that people shout and 'attack' each other. I have updated the first post with the instructions about starting with Player 1's fire button. |
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| necronom | Sep 22 2010, 09:28 PM Post #65 |
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Para(lytic)Droid
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I'm glad we've got that sorted! 348,480 Played with my Zipstick.  |
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| Rassilon | Sep 22 2010, 09:48 PM Post #66 |
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Welll that was an exciting interlude! 107258 
Edited by Rassilon, Sep 22 2010, 09:48 PM.
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| HOW | Sep 23 2010, 05:13 AM Post #67 |
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Hi, Still a bit confused down here. Not sure of the differences between starting with P1 or P2's Start button....Is that the Droid ? Just to be clear - I can use a dual-analogue pad with twin sticks as long as I'm not assisted by the Droid? |
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| zaphod79 | Sep 23 2010, 06:01 AM Post #68 |
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Like 69, but bigger
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Okay to confirm. You can use a twin stick setup / keyboard / mouse / whatever. *but* you must start the game and play the same game as everyone else , so to do that you press the fire button on player 1's stick (in Necronom's instructions he specifically says to press R2 which is player 2's button) , if you start like this you will not have the droid , and you can only either fire in the same direction you move or you can 'lock' the fire in a single direction (you cannot move in one direction and shoot in others). I think the confusion here is around 2 things : 1) Control method - it doesnt matter - you can use a dance pad or Move / Kinect if you want its just a control device if your pad has 2 sticks then fine. 2) Starting options , by starting with the player 2 fire button you start a game with a slightly different set of instructions - everyone should be playing the same game so start with the player 1 fire button , this gives you the game without a droid and the standard move/fire in the same direction / lock fire in a single direction. |
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| clarance | Sep 23 2010, 08:33 AM Post #69 |
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Now I'm confused - are we playing with the twin stick method or not - pressing player two fire doesn't start with the droid, it enables the twin stick method of control which can be mimicked by configuring a twin analogue stick. What I think you're saying is that we can use a twin stick controller, but only use one of the sticks in the game, using the fire button to lock firing. Is that right? |
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| zaphod79 | Sep 23 2010, 08:52 AM Post #70 |
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Like 69, but bigger
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Correct Again - you can use any controller you like , you should start the game by pressing fire on whatever is defined as player 1's fire button which starts up with a single controller to move and a single fire button. You should *not* start the game with Player 2's fire button which sets the game to allow independant fire and movement controls. You should *not* start the game up with the options set to enable a droid or other helper. |
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| Dam | Sep 23 2010, 03:58 PM Post #71 |
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213,328
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| Rassilon | Sep 23 2010, 06:35 PM Post #72 |
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203678
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| captainfantastic | Sep 23 2010, 11:39 PM Post #73 |
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80674
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| pokemonsam | Sep 24 2010, 07:43 PM Post #74 |
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 48530 I think this game is rude and it has the f word in it and some inappropriate noises   I do like this a bit and it is hard 
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| Leezer | Sep 25 2010, 09:42 AM Post #75 |
Leecher more like
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212364 great game - but have you noticed how much slicker and faster the arcade original of robotron is using 8bit hardware - the atari st is a 16bit cpu 
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| Rassilon | Sep 25 2010, 02:34 PM Post #76 |
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245510
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| clarance | Sep 25 2010, 02:47 PM Post #77 |
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 - 286,998 |
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| a.j.green | Sep 25 2010, 03:14 PM Post #78 |
Its not easy...
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683868 Don't know what happened with the screenshot. Managed to get a fair way into it at last. And that's with a keyboard! |
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| a.j.green | Sep 25 2010, 03:15 PM Post #79 |
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Its not easy...
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There are 100 levels. After level 100 it cycles back to level 1 but much more difficult. |
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| zaphod79 | Sep 25 2010, 06:23 PM Post #80 |
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Like 69, but bigger
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121120
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| paranoid marvin | Sep 25 2010, 07:41 PM Post #81 |
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(accidentally 'continued' but didnt increase score before taking shot) Did quite rubbish til I got a level boost - made it real dificult , but trebled my best score - lucky  158294 Edited by paranoid marvin, Sep 25 2010, 07:42 PM.
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| paranoid marvin | Sep 25 2010, 09:59 PM Post #82 |
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Improvement without warp! 189014 
Edited by paranoid marvin, Sep 25 2010, 10:00 PM.
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| Ambroid77 | Sep 25 2010, 10:41 PM Post #83 |
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 45860 think i might be last  great game...................................no time 
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| merman | Sep 25 2010, 10:44 PM Post #84 |
Retro Survival Ed
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First of all, apologies for not being here during the last week - I've been on holiday and did not have Internet access. Second, it may have been better to specify one stick control to start with. There's no assumption that everyone has access to extra controllers (in fact, some games have been dropped because of control difficulties in the past) - and there should certainly be no assumption that someone is trying to gain an advantage by playing with dual stick controls. Sorry if anyone feels hard done by, but I don't see it as cheating per se. Right, now I'm off to have a quick blast myself... |
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| clarance | Sep 26 2010, 12:02 AM Post #85 |
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 - 483,224 - had loads of lives before this bloody 'Hero Wave'. |
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| paranoid marvin | Sep 26 2010, 01:51 AM Post #86 |
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Twinstick Llamatron is an entrely different game to single stick. It's annoying that a game that pretty much requires 2 sticks to play properly is restricted to one , but I accept we've got the keep the playing field as level as practically possible. Maybe one day we'll all have tanksticks and be able to play stuff like arcade Missile Command , Crystal Castles , Battlezone - and twinstick Llamatron, but until then there's plenty of standard control games to keep us going |
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| HOW | Sep 26 2010, 02:39 AM Post #87 |
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Hi there All, Well.....an interesting week.... Great game - minus the controversy - thanks A J  Thanks to Mooncresta too for enlightening me to Llamatron's connection to my home town - That was cool It also inspired me to have a trawl for other Llamasoft stories and history online. I never knew about the Llamasoft/Inerceptor bad blood for instance - Fascinating stuff. PS. Does anyone know if Jeff's 'History of Llamasoft' went past Part 10 ??? That is all I've managed to find - Takes the story up to Matrix (I discovered that 'Matrix' (a fave of old on the C=64) is called 'Attack of the Mutant Camels' in the States! - MAD  I started off with Twin-Sticks initially - as that's how I remember playing it on my Amiga. Got NEARLY 300K to start with, and was REALLY looking forward to some cracking sessions to beat that over the week. However......Then came the controversy .I held off playing until I knew what was what....Pretty gutted at the ruling on Single-Stick Only and eventually only had a couple of goes today to record a score: 112664.  Still a great game - but not quite the same. Still a great season too - as I've enjoyed every single game so far. Looking forward to next week -  Hope it's more straightforward..... PS. you lot that own PS3s, Wii, XBox360s, etc.....Dig in and buy a pad / adaptor PPS. On the arcade Ikari Warriors front - There IS a hacked arcade ROM for MAME that uses a standard non-rotating joystick: ROM: ikarijpb Edited by HOW, Sep 26 2010, 04:48 AM.
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| pokemonsam | Sep 26 2010, 09:30 AM Post #88 |
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 59,340 |
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| necronom | Sep 26 2010, 09:38 AM Post #89 |
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Para(lytic)Droid
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£2.45 from eBay (including postage) for a dual adaptor. I've just tried ikarijpb, and it still used a dial. The text with it didn't mention anything about it being changed. What am I doing wrong? I was about to change my nomination to that one, but wanted to make sure it was okay first. |
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| Rassilon | Sep 26 2010, 09:56 AM Post #90 |
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254344
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| merman | Sep 26 2010, 10:53 AM Post #91 |
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Retro Survival Ed
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Had a huge pile of e-mails to look through, so ran out of time to play more... 103188
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| merman | Sep 26 2010, 11:02 AM Post #92 |
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Retro Survival Ed
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Time's up! |
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| deadpan666 | Sep 26 2010, 11:02 AM Post #93 |
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Damn...just too late to post my new score..... Never mind, it wasn't that much better than my last one anyway....Been a bit ill this week, so didn't get to play as much as I would have liked. Awesome game though!
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| zaphod79 | Sep 26 2010, 11:44 AM Post #94 |
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Like 69, but bigger
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Scores have been updated - I *think* i have the correct one for each player - however there may have been some missed - please check and post here if your score is not correct. 1) 683868 - A.J Green = 100.00 points 2) 483224 - Clarance = 82.39 points 3) 348480 - necronom = 69.60 points 4) 254344 - Rassilon = 59.77 points 5) 213328 - Dam = 53.83 points 6) 212364 - Leezer = 50.82 points 7) 189014 - Paranoid marvin = 46.17 points 8) 132142 - Supermario = 39.07 points 9) 121120 - Zaphod79 = 35.33 points 10) 112664 - HOW = 31.77 points 11) 103188 - Merman = 28.13 points 12) 99370 - Geenius = 24.91 points 13) 84352 - Invisible = 20.87 points 14) 80674 - Captainfantastic = 17.66 points 15) 59340 - Pokemonsam = 13.16 points 16) 45860 - Mooncresta77 = 9.24 points 17) 33050 - Deadpan666 = 5.36 points |
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| a.j.green | Oct 1 2010, 02:50 PM Post #95 |
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Its not easy...
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Looks good to me!
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4:24 PM Jun 19