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| Intelligible Argumentation?; or "irrational+incoherent=atheism?" | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Dec 16 2011, 05:34 PM (479 Views) | |
| Ray Nearhood | Dec 16 2011, 05:34 PM Post #1 |
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THE Bald Assertion
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Over here Jason tells us:
True statement? I think so. Do you? Discuss. |
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| Ray Nearhood | Dec 18 2011, 02:51 PM Post #11 |
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THE Bald Assertion
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So, less what is said and more how it is said? Well, then, what of my expansion of the argument (understanding that the expansion is a conclusion not a 'gotcha')? |
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| Pastoral Musings | Dec 18 2011, 07:17 PM Post #12 |
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Fundy
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Not sure how I should respond to Xulon. Let me just copy and paste from my blog post ( http://pastoralmusings.com/2011/11/presuppositions-and-inerrancy-redux/ ) "Where does knowledge come from? Is knowledge based upon certain nervous impulses and hormonal changes? Is knowledge simply the result of observation? If this is the case, knowledge for one person will certainly not be necessarily the knowledge that another thinks that he has. In fact, knowledge would be relative and thus be only opinion. On the other hand, if knowledge is something that can be held in common by humans, knowledge must have an absolute and objective source that determines the truth or falsity of a matter. For there to be an absolute source and standard of knowledge and truth that source must possess all knowledge and truth. The Christian Theist understands this source of all knowledge and truth to be the God of the Bible.3 If God is the source and standard of all truth and all knowledge, then we have a standard by which we can measure all truth claims. If we do not have God as this source and standard of knowledge and truth, we descend into relativism and irrationality." |
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| Deleted User | Dec 18 2011, 07:33 PM Post #13 |
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Deleted User
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I think the "without God knowledge is only opinion" is an issue. As is "If there is knowledge, it must have an absolute and objective source". I assume you do not mean that knowledge that a rock is hard can only rise above the level of opinion if God exists. So what knowledge are you talking about? Why does there have to be "an absolute source and standard for knowledge"? |
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| Pastoral Musings | Dec 18 2011, 08:30 PM Post #14 |
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Fundy
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Xulon, If an absolute standard does not exist, then there is only relativism and we descend into irrationality. It is my idea against yours, and ours against the worlds. There is no arbiter of truth if there is no absolute standard of knowledge. |
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| Deleted User | Dec 18 2011, 08:52 PM Post #15 |
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Deleted User
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So without God, 1+1=2 is only your opinion? |
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| Pastoral Musings | Dec 18 2011, 09:03 PM Post #16 |
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Fundy
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Without God we cannot know whether or not 1+1=2 is correct or not, because there is no absolute source or standard of truth. There is nothing to determine what is true and what is not without God. I think you would do well to read this by John Frame. I think it would answer some questions. |
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| Deleted User | Dec 18 2011, 09:55 PM Post #17 |
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Deleted User
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So what is being attempted is to turn 1+1=2 into Atheists' "then a miracle happened"? Why can't an atheist pick up one pencil and then pick up one pencil and have two pencils? |
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| Pastoral Musings | Dec 19 2011, 07:10 AM Post #18 |
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Fundy
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Xulon, I cannot make much sense of what you're saying. Perhaps it's me, but I can see no connection with this discussion and miracles. This discussion is about epistemology having its roots in God, and in none other. Have you ever read any Van Til or Frame? Have you ever read a transcendental argument regarding epistemology? Did you go to the link on Frame's site and read? I'm thinking that you aren't grasping the issue, or else you are playing devil's advocate. The problem is that I cannot discern which. |
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| Deleted User | Dec 19 2011, 07:58 AM Post #19 |
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Deleted User
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It may not be an either/or. I did read that article plus Ray has sent me to other ones. As I see it, the argument is to apply Colossians 1:17 to the convo And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. (Colossians 1:17) and say that without God one cannot even trust that 1+1=2 is a valid concept (hence, for the Atheist 1+1=2 is a miraculous event, whether they like it or not). I cannot see that any of this follows. Logically it is a non sequitur. Anybody can have one item, get one more and the result is two items. Further, the Christian, smarting over the Atheists' mocking of faith want to turn it around and say Atheists live by faith. While I agree that they do and that non-material realities break into their consciousnesses, I don't see that this argumentation leads there or that in this instance "1+1=2 is a leap of faith" has any value beyond "Oh! Snap!". |
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| Pastoral Musings | Dec 19 2011, 08:46 AM Post #20 |
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Fundy
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Xulon, The question is how can you think that there is any ability to have any sort of rationality without God as the absolute standard of truth? If there is no absolute standard of truth, why cannot I claim that 3 is the new 2, and thus you are wrong in declaring that 1+1=2? |
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12:20 AM Jul 11