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Issue (Martin Perez)
Topic Started: Feb 1 2010, 07:30 PM (355 Views)
JoeyTTU01
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If Steve is not going to be more active none of this will matter anyway b/c the league will die anyway.
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PhilliesGM
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JoeyTTU01
Feb 1 2010, 10:11 PM
HAHA, if it was not for me this league would not even have a 2010 so you can climb off your high horse anytime pal.

99.9% of the leagues I am if a player does not sign a MAJOR LEAGUE CONTRACT they are property of the team that signed them, period, regardless of country they are from.

And like i said again and again....IT IS UNFAIR TO TEAMS WITH SMALLER MARKETS AND YOU CANT ARGUE THAT.

And again as i said before, in years prior leagues could get away with not having a rule. But with the talent coming out of foreign countries now you NEED to have a rule for the integrity of the league.

Your whole argument is, this is what we do in other leagues...well this is not your other leagues. Im pretty sure things here go to a vote, because the last commissioner was making rules his way and thats why it fell. So go ahead and start the thread to be voted on there sport.
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JoeyTTU01
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PhilliesGM
Feb 1 2010, 08:21 PM
JoeyTTU01
Feb 1 2010, 10:11 PM
HAHA, if it was not for me this league would not even have a 2010 so you can climb off your high horse anytime pal.

99.9% of the leagues I am if a player does not sign a MAJOR LEAGUE CONTRACT they are property of the team that signed them, period, regardless of country they are from.

And like i said again and again....IT IS UNFAIR TO TEAMS WITH SMALLER MARKETS AND YOU CANT ARGUE THAT.

And again as i said before, in years prior leagues could get away with not having a rule. But with the talent coming out of foreign countries now you NEED to have a rule for the integrity of the league.

Your whole argument is, this is what we do in other leagues...well this is not your other leagues. Im pretty sure things here go to a vote, because the last commissioner was making rules his way and thats why it fell. So go ahead and start the thread to be voted on there sport.

Your right, my other leagues are ran a heck of a lot better than this one is, that is for damn sure.
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JoeyTTU01
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There is no need for any "poll" until others express an opinion anyway.

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JoeyTTU01
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Also, regardless of any "rule", no team should be forced to give up a guy they have had control of for 2 years, that is UNFAIR, but I am sure you will argue against that as well.
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JoeyTTU01
Feb 1 2010, 10:48 PM
Also, regardless of any "rule", no team should be forced to give up a guy they have had control of for 2 years, that is UNFAIR, but I am sure you will argue against that as well.

Yea well considering you should of never had him, and shouldnt of had control of i would argue that.

I should just start putting people on my roster i've never drafted and 2 years say there mine.
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JoeyTTU01
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PhilliesGM
Feb 1 2010, 08:52 PM
JoeyTTU01
Feb 1 2010, 10:48 PM
Also, regardless of any "rule", no team should be forced to give up a guy they have had control of for 2 years, that is UNFAIR, but I am sure you will argue against that as well.

Yea well considering you should of never had him, and shouldnt of had control of i would argue that.

I should just start putting people on my roster i've never drafted and 2 years say there mine.

And you should not have Edgar Garica, but I would guess he is probably listed on your minors.
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JoeyTTU01
Feb 1 2010, 10:53 PM
PhilliesGM
Feb 1 2010, 08:52 PM
JoeyTTU01
Feb 1 2010, 10:48 PM
Also, regardless of any "rule", no team should be forced to give up a guy they have had control of for 2 years, that is UNFAIR, but I am sure you will argue against that as well.

Yea well considering you should of never had him, and shouldnt of had control of i would argue that.

I should just start putting people on my roster i've never drafted and 2 years say there mine.

And you should not have Edgar Garica, but I would guess he is probably listed on your minors.

Actually Edgar Garcia was signed on the Phillies prior to the Start of this league (June 2006 i believe)...so yes he is allowed on my team, and yes my property
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Cubsgm
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A rule has to be put in to place to address this. I think adding an international draft or even making these guys available for a draft will this far more complex than it needs to be, lets be honest we know next to nothing about 95% of these guys when they are signed.

You only know about Perez because its 2 years later, no one thought to bring this up when he signed so this case is really a non issue as far as I am concerned. If you want to be techincal he wasn't drafted in the first year player draft so he belongs to Texas.

The argument of big versus small markets is mitigated by the fact that the Yankees have been contracted and the fact that small market teams do sign internation free agents the Reds signed Chapman, the Rangers signed Perez even the A's signed that Inoa kid a couple of years ago.

I am sure that teams have players on there rosters or have traded players who were signed as international free agents after the league started. We can not go back and undo trades or take guys off of rosters 2 years later. Japanese free agents should not be treated any differently than players from any other country. If your team signs an international free agent they should be placed on your roster.

Its the easiest way to handle this, plus if we make them free agents or open to a draft of some sort were does the line end what about players that weren't drafted in the FYPD or american guys who went undrafted and then were signed they would all have to be eligible for future drafts or free agency.
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RedsGM (Spyder89)
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We do really need to figure this out and come to a conclusion, because this would change a whole lot for alot of people, I for one fall under that category, and still think that the best way to solve it would either be putting them into free agents or having a foreign player draft every year, something along those lines.
Plus another issue is the draft and the concern about Steve continuing, but if he doesnt im sure im not the only person who would want to keep this league going like Steve did before.
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JoeyTTU01
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Quote:
 
Clubs go global during signing period
Spending on the rise for international players
By Jonathan Mayo / MLB.com- 7/9/09

When it comes to the building of Major League organizations, the First-Year Player Draft gets most of the attention. MLB.com set traffic records in June, recording 332.5 million page views during the three-day event. There's no question the Draft provides many building blocks for all 30 teams.

But that only tells slightly more than half the story. Around 40 percent of players in affiliated baseball were born outside of the 50 United States. Those from Puerto Rico and Canada are subject to the Draft, but the rest -- many of whom reach deals at age 16 -- come during a summertime free agent signing period that began on July 2.

"It's one of the important arms for us to acquire talent," said Pirates general manager Neal Huntington, whose club has tried to be much more active abroad in the last couple of years, most notably with the opening of an academy in the Dominican Republic. "We'll be aggressive with players we like and try to add players from the international market, particularly Latin American. But we can't just throw money blindly because we want have a presence."

Just like in the Draft, the money spent in this market has been escalating, with more and more teams expanding their search for players abroad. Last year, the A's set a record in signing Dominican pitcher Michael Ynoa for $4.25 million.

"It has certainly blown up. Players who used to be $75,000 players are now $500,000, and players who were $500,000 are now $1.2 million," said Huntington. "Just like any player you're going to give six or seven figures, you take a step back, determine the quality and quantity of information you have and make the best decision."

That, of course, is easier said than done. If a team takes a player in the Draft, chances are the team has seen that player countless times. With the Pirates and their selection of Pedro Alvarez a year ago, for example, they had seen the Vanderbilt product -- in some fashion -- since his high school days, for three years of college, in wood bat leagues, in showcases, and on and on.

Internationally, scouts have to make a call after a couple of workouts, maybe a week or two in an organization's academy. It's one thing to decide to take a chance on a player like that for $100,000; it's quite another to sign off on the larger bonuses that are becoming the norm. There seem to be a few variables that have led to the escalation of bonuses handed out every July.

"The success that teams have had down there is one," Huntington said. "Two, a lot more teams are more aggressive and active down there. Three, the whole July 2 signing is almost like an international draft. There's hype and there's pressure to make a big-dollar announcement to show fans you're being active."

While many players have agreed to terms with teams since the signing period began last Thursday, the one player who some felt had a chance to come close to Ynoa's record bonus has yet to sign. Dominican shortstop Miguel Angel Sano is believed to be the top talent in this year's international crop. Most project he'll be a third baseman or right fielder down the line, but scouts have universally praised his hitting ability and his throwing arm. It's thought that Huntington's Pirates, the Orioles and perhaps the Twins are the three finalists in the contest to land Sano.

There are a couple of reasons for the lack of speed in that process. The first is what it will take to get a deal done. While many don't think Sano will break Ynoa's record, he might come close, especially if a bidding war breaks out. Even before those wheels get set in motion, most teams are waiting for Major League Baseball's investigation into Sano's age before taking the plunge. That investigation should be completed by early next week. The more time that passes, some believe, the lower the price might fall when all is said and done.

While the Sano saga goes on, several other big names and fairly big contracts have been announced. The Cardinals signed outfielder Wagner Mateo out of the Dominican for a reported $3.1 million. Mateo has been seen more than many international signees, having participated in the RBI World Series in 2007 and 2008 and showcased in camps throughout Florida and Arizona this past spring.

He was well scouted, and he performed at a high level," Cardinals general manager John Mozeliak said when the signing was announced. "Being able to watch what he did and have so many different people see him, that helped our confidence level in trying to aggressively pursue this."

The Yankees, never one to shy away from being active internationally (they signed Alfonso Soriano for $3.1 million as a free agent in 1998 and Chien-Ming Wang for $1.9 million in 2000, for example), inked Dominican catcher Gary Sanchez for a reported $3 million, while also shelling out $850,000 to shortstop Damian Arredondo and another $400,000 to right-hander Chris Cabrera, both from the Dominican Republic.

Other seven-figure signings include: OF Guillermo Pimentel and SS Jose Vinicio, both Dominican, who signed with the Mariners and the Red Sox, respectively, for a reported $2 million apiece; LHP Juan Urbina, the Venezuelan who is the son of former big leaguer Ugueth Urbina, got around $1.25 million from the Mets; Nicaraguan 3B Chelsor Cuthbert (Royals) and Venezuelan SS Luis Sardinas (Rangers), who each got in the $1.2 million range. For the Rangers, Sardinas was one of several big signings they announced as they are typically one of the more active players on the Latin American market.

Of course, the signing period extends beyond the various baseball neighbors to the south of the United States. The game has become increasingly global with countless markets around the world. Several Asian prospects were garnering serious buzz, and the Pirates signed three Taiwanese prospects, who they are very excited about, to lesser deals. And the Twins reportedly will sign Max Keppler this weekend to something in the vicinity of an $800,000 bonus. Keppler is a toolsy outfielder who reminds some of a Steve Finley type ... from Germany.

Aside from Sano, the biggest international name that is unsigned is Aroldis Chapman. The Cuban has been described as a left-handed Stephen Strasburg, who has been clocked at 102 mph on the radar gun. The 21-year-old reportedly defected while the Cuban national team was participating in a tournament in the Netherlands. It will take him up to six months to establish residency. Once he does that, there will be open bidding for his services, unlike with Strasburg, who can negotiate only with the team that drafted him -- the Washington Nationals. Considered to be the biggest defector from Cuba since Jose Contreras in 2002, many feel Chapman will command at least as much as the four-year, $32 million contract Contreras got from the Yankees in 2003.

Other than Chapman, these are teenagers who are likely years away from reaching the big leagues, so it's easy to lose track of who's who. But a glance at this year's All-Star Game rosters should convince most fans to at least store this year's signings in the back of of their heads.

Mariners ace Felix Hernandez signed with the Mariners for $710,000 in 2002; Astros shortstop Miguel Tejada signed with the A's back in 1993, before the bonus explosion, for a mere $2,000; and Mets closer Francisco Rodriguez joined the Angels organization in 1998 for $900,000.

Other international signees who are 2009 All-Stars are Ichiro (a slightly different story, as he signed in 2000 out of the Japanese professional leagues), Mariano Rivera (1990), Victor Martinez (1996), Hanley Ramirez (2000), Francisco Cordero (1994), and Johan Santana (1995).

And though not on this year's All-Star team, other former international signees include franchise players Miguel Cabrera, who signed with the Marlins for $1.9 million in 1999 and Jose Reyes, who the Mets landed for just $200,000 in 2000.

Not every international signing is a success story, but these examples offer a glimpse of why teams are willing to take a chance.

"It's very important to do what we're doing, and it's what we need to do to be successful," Huntington said. "If the right player is there, absolutely, we'll be aggressive. In some cases we'll be right; in some cases, we'll be wrong."


Spin-El (Angels GM) during a similar debate in my league

Quote:
 
Top 2009 International signings:

Brewers OF Jose Pena Dominican $400k
Cardinals OF Wagner Mateo Dominican $3.1m -Failed physical voided deal- Giants close to signing
Mariners OF Guillermo Pimentel Dominican $2.0m
Mets LHP Juan Urbina Venezuela $1.25m
Rangers SS Luis Sardinas Venezuela $1.2m
Red Sox OF Jose Vinicio Dominican $2.0m
Royals 3B Chelsor Cuthbert Nicaragua $1.35m
Twins OF Max Keppler Germany $800k
Yankees C Gary Sanchez Dominican $3.0m
Yankees RHP Chris Cabrera Dominican $400k
Yankees SS Damian Arredondo Dominican $850k
Twins SS Miguel Angel Sano Dominican $3.15M
9. Daniel Sanchez, RHP, Venezuela- Tampa Bay
10. Jose Pena, RHP, Dominican Republic- Yankees
11. Edgar Ferreira, LHP, Dominican Republic- Unsigned
12. Jochi Ogando, RHP, Dominican Republic- Unsigned
13. Jacob Beltre, C, Dominican Republic- Unsigned
14. Victor Payano, LHP, Dominican Republic- Red Sox- $900,000
15. Jurickson Profar, RHP/SS, Curacao- Rangers- $800,000
16. Luis Jolly, CF, Dominican Republic- Unsigned
17. Johendi Jiminian, RHP, Dominican Republic- Unsigned
18. Santo Aybar, SS, Dominican Republic- Unsigned
19. Leonardo Perdomo, RHP, Dominican Republic- Unsigned
20. Rosel Herrera, SS, Dominican Republic- Rockies -$550,000
21. Wilfredo Solano, SS, Venezuela- A's
22. Santiago Nesi, C, Venezuela- Blue Jays -$750,000
23. Jorge Polanco, SS, Dominican Republic- Twins- $700,000
24. Jairo Kelly, SS, Dominican Republic- Indians
25. Humberto Valor, SS, Venezuela- Reds

These players were basically considered the top 29 International players who would receive the highest bonuses.

Of these 29...8 remain unsigned(Arguably the Top Prospect Mateo was signed by the Cardinals...but he failed his physical and remains unsigned).

The 22 players that were signed(including Mateo)...were signed by 16 different MLB teams.

The Yankees signed 4
The Twins signed 2
The Red Sox signed 2
The Rangers signed 2

That's it.

All 30 MLB teams signed International Amatuer Free Agents in 2009.
The 29 I listed above were considered the Players who would receive the highest bonuses.

The Yankees have an advantage in everything.
They're the Yankees...everybody in Latin America knows who the Yankees are.
Thye've had success in the market in the past...and they have the money to invest.

But the rest of MLB has caught on.
Every single team is investing in International scouting departments.
They're spending more money each and every year on scouts and signing bonuses.

The competition in the International Market has grown each and every year and the Gap has closed.

16 teams were willing to shell out big bonuses to the top 22 International Amatuer Free Agents.

While nearly every team in the League was in contention for these guys(The Pirates were heavily involved with several top players...but Huntington couldn't get anything done this year).


The International Amatuer Market is constantly evolving.
It's evolving in the direction of Parity.

The days of the Yankees, Mets and Red Sox dominating the Market are long gone.

After Thoroughly researching this issue...going back 10 years to the present...it's my opinion that this is not an issue that significantly affects the parity of our League.

And not only does it not affect our league significantly at the present....the whole process is trending towards greater parity and equal competition between the 30 MLB teams.

This is not something that I feel is necessary for the League...but if the decision is made to open up our draft to International players...so be it.

I really dont see many International players being drafted in the top 25 picks.
If this is something that the TAB feels is necessary...it will mostly be a positive for the Superior teams in our League who often draft in the late 20's.

It's in those slots that you'll see teams like the Pirates drafting the top International talent.
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JoeyTTU01
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Here are my "no-bias" thoughts.

The FYPD should be only for High School and College kids who sign with their team on signing day. Foreign players should NOT be put into the FYPD.

The Contraction Draft is and should remain for only the teams no longer in the league, which would include any MLers or MiLers (including foreign players) not yet drafted or not passed the free agent mark.

In regards to foreign players, the only ones who I think should be made Free Agents are the Japanese who for the most part come over more polished and later in their careers than other foreign born players. Any foreign player not from Japan should be part of the team that signed them. An example of this would be the Oakland A's with Michael Ynoa , he should be property of the Oakland A's.

I do not think we need a 3rd draft for this guys. A lot of teams have stepped up their scouting of foreign talent which is obvious when you see teams like Oakland and Minnesota spending on that kind of talent.
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PadresGM
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I agree with Joey on this one.

In every other league I am in it is always:

Any foreign player that signs a Major league deal goes into free agency for bidding.

All other players are the property of the team they signed their minor league deal with.

The only other league I am in where it is different is the team that signed the player to a Major league contract has right of first refusal. In other words the owner of the team can take on the contract exactly as it is in MLB, or can decline and the player goes into free agency.

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JoeyTTU01
Feb 1 2010, 09:39 PM
If a player signs with a team, regardless of how, he is that teams property if its a MiL, the only exception is "ML" deals in regards to FOREIGN PLAYERS who are not eligible for the FYPD. The only players for the FYPD are COLLEGE and HIGH SCHOOL KIDS and the only ones for the CONTRACTION DRAFT are from the teams no longer in the league, Texas Rangers do not qualify.

Martin Perez should be my property. There is no way that 2 yrs after the fact he should be put in some draft or made 18 yr FA because some GM suddenly wants him to be part of their team.

He has pitched for the Rangers since 2008.

Joey is right. In this exact instance, he is property of Texas.
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WHat about Cuban born players? Last year, we included Dayan Viciedo in Free Agency. I know in some leagues Cuban signed players are treated the same as Japanese players. We Viciedo to go into Free Agency instead of into the White Sox organization. What about players like Aroldis Chapman this year? Does he go into FA like Viciedo did last year, or is he property of the Reds?
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